ImmigVillages: Mosty,Hajworouka,Skalat,Hidek/Hidegpatak

 
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jgomba



Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: ImmigVillages: Mosty,Hajworouka,Skalat,Hidek/Hidegpatak Reply with quote

Hi,

I trying to find the present day location from which my grandparents came from. Can you please assist.
Passenger Nationality Place of Resistance Date of US Arrival
Annes Turek Austria,Polish Mosty, Silesia January 28, 1913
Paul Byrtus Austria, Polish Mosty, Silesia November 1, 1910
Jwan Gamba Hungary, Ruthenian Hidek, Hungary October 14, 1909
Hidekpohok or
Hidegpatak

Anna Kutchtiak Austria, Ruthenian Hajworouka, Austria October 19, 1912
Teodor Kuchtiak Poland, Polish Skalat, Galicia August 7, 1907

I would greatly appreciate any help


John Gomba
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Cheri Vanden Berg
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
Anna Kuchtiak's last residence was Hajworonka, which had been in Poland, but now is in Ukraine, and now called Gayvoronka. Teodor Kuchtiak's last residence was Skalat, which was also in Poland at one time, but now is in Ukraine. It looks like it is still called Skalat.
Cheri
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PolishLibrarian
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John~ Just some thoughts as I look at your facts regarding Jwan Gamba and Anna Kuchtiak and their Ellis Island records.

First item of note is Jwan is a Ruthenian from Hungary whereas Anna is a Ruthenian from Austria. The attached map was the best I could find showing the Austria and Hungary borders in 1910. On this map I believe the part in orange for Ukrainian ethnicity represents the Ruthenian area of Austrian Galicia (and purple for the Polish part of Austrian Galicia). Note there is only a small portion of Ukrainian section within the border of Hungary. I believe it is possible that Jwan’s town would be part of Slovakia today. On the manifest Jwan appears to have been traveling with 3 others from Hidek (lines 20, 21 & 23). On the 2nd sheet of the manifest all 4 list their birthplace as what I read (as did the indexer for the Ancestry record) as Hidekpotok. According to Google Translate potok is the Slovak word for “stream”. Doesn’t really get you any closer to the location…

For Anna you have listed her birthplace the way it was indexed on Ellis Island - Hajworouka. When I look at the 2nd sheet of the manifest last column (birthplace) I see something closer to Hajmoronka (I see your w and u as closed letters at the top like m and n) but that name doesn’t show up in Google searches either. I see Cheri got closer than I.

Lastly I wonder about the familiarity of the writer of the manifest with the language Anna and Jwan would have spoken. For example I think I read that there is no W in Ukranian as in Polish, so if Jwan is Ivan why is it spelled that way? If A & J spoke Rusyn (or Ruthene or Ruthenian) using the Cyrillic script, I’m not sure what the translation/spelling would be for words that sounded like Hidek (or Hidekpotok) and Hajworouka when spoken. Someone who’s familiar with Ukrainian might have some ideas.



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sirdan



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, if i might add something.. I found the manifest of Paul Byrtus, and it's written on it last residence as Mosty in Silesia and as place of birth Mosty in Austria, it is inconsistent. Looking on wiki, it shows there is no Mosty town/village in Silesia (Śląsk), but the closest to Austria partition is village Mosty near Kielce. It is possible, that there was a village mosty in Silesia and it dissappeared or changed name (eg to german language) I cant find manifest of Annes Turek, this Mosty village need some more research.
Jwan Gamba's town is likely Hidegpatak indeed. This is Hungarian name for town in today's Slovakia https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidegpatak Hmm, wait, other sites direct to some area called Hidegpatak in Hungary, but it doesnt look like a town name http://itouchmap.com/?c=hu&UF=-855770&UN=-1272686&DG=PPLX
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: ImmigVillages: Mosty,Hajworouka,Skalat,Hidek/Hidegpatak Reply with quote

jgomba wrote:
Hi,

I trying to find the present day location from which my grandparents came from. Can you please assist.
Passenger Nationality Place of Resistance Date of US Arrival
Annes Turek Austria,Polish Mosty, Silesia January 28, 1913
Paul Byrtus Austria, Polish Mosty, Silesia November 1, 1910
Jwan Gamba Hungary, Ruthenian Hidek, Hungary October 14, 1909
Hidekpohok or
Hidegpatak

Anna Kutchtiak Austria, Ruthenian Hajworouka, Austria October 19, 1912
Teodor Kuchtiak Poland, Polish Skalat, Galicia August 7, 1907

I would greatly appreciate any help


John Gomba


John,

I believe I found it all.

First of all, Ruthenian, Rutenian, Rusin, Rusyn, Lemko, all that names may refer to the same group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Hidek Potok.
Potok means stream in Polish (and probably similar in some other Slavic languages).

At one moment I googled Hidek Potok, and found this website
www.savingjews.org/righteous/gv.htm
where under GORCZYK, Stanislaw (1910-1985) you have a description of a trek:
... from Zamosc, through Stryj and Lvov to Skole ...
... One night they started to march the 60 Km. trek towards the border through the Tatra Mountains and after a few days reached Felszyn Hidek Potok, already in Hungary.

The village Skole, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine, is circa 30 km South-West of Stryj (Polish name Stryj, Ukrainian Cyrillic transliteration Stryi).

I tried to find Felszyn, and got it, with various names.
The Polish orthography is Felsztyn, and Wiki website gives an excellent description
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsztyn_%28obw%C3%B3d_lwowski%29

Today's name of Felsztyn is Skelivka, in Ukraina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skelivka
It's circa 20 km from today's border between Poland and Ukraina, search Ustrzyki Dolne, then look to the East in direction of Sambir. It's above Staryi Sambir (Staryi means Old, Old Sambir).

Felsztyn is here http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/382

==

Skalat is South-East of Ternopil, in Ukraine, quite a long distance (220 km) from Felsztyn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skalat

==

The most difficult was Hajworouka, Austria - it is (was) Hajworonka, close to Wiśniowczyk, see below.

I started with an old Gazeta Lwowska (OCR of an old printed text, tricky), where the name Hajworouka shows up.
Then digged various other villages in the same long sentence. Got a little lost with the name Podhajce and its variants (two Podhajce in today Ukraina, one in Poland; Podhajczyki in Lwow area).
Then I looked up other village from that Gazeta Lwowska sentence, Wiśniowczyk.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmina_Wi%C5%9Bniowczyk

And then BINGO, Wiśniowczyk, in the old geography book from that years:
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_XIII/614
That Wiśniowczyk is described 20 km South-East of Podhajec.
Left side, bottom, 4-th line: Hajworonka, on the North of Wiśniowczyk

Item Wiśniowczyk mentions Polish, Ruthenians, Germans in that area.

But where is that Wiśniowczyk?
Parish in Wiśniowczyk, dekanat Trembowelski

Dekanat!
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trembowla

It helps me to discriminate between various Podhajce today, and leads to
Podhajce, Ternopil's'ka oblast, Ukraine (South-West of Ternopil)
Trembowla, Ternopil's'ka oblast, Ukraine (South of Ternopil)
Skalat is as well within that grouping of places, South-East of Ternopil

In summary, your ancestors came from two places, one near Felsztyn aka Skelivka, 20 km from today's border Poland-Ukraina (Ustrzyki Dolne are the closest place), and the second near Ternopil, rough estimate of 130 km from Lwow, then additional 90 from Lwow to Felsztyn aka Skelivka.

ADDENDUM about Mosty, Slask.

Mosty here, left, middle, item 1)
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_VI/721
Wies powiat Jablonkowski na Slaszku Austriackim.
Lezy w okolicy gorzystej, w poblizu przeleczy Jablonkowskiej, na stokach Beskidu Szlaskiego

Today Jabłonków, in Czechy, few km from Polish border
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jab%C5%82onk%C3%B3w
"Jabłonków (cz. Jablunkov, niem. Jablunkau[2]) – miasto w Czechach w kraju morawsko-śląskim. Leży w regionie Śląska Cieszyńskiego, na tzw. Zaolziu, kilka kilometrów od granicy z Polską i jest najbardziej wysuniętym na wschód miastem w Czechach."

Mosty koło Jabłonkowa
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosty_ko%C5%82o_Jab%C5%82onkowa

Best,
Elzbieta

ADDENDUM: Just noted it's well correlated with Cheri's finding. Map attached.



FelsztynHidekPotok-to-Hajworonka-230km.pdf
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jgomba



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: ImmigVillages: Mosty,Hajworouka,Skalat,Hidek/Hidegpatak Reply with quote

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
jgomba wrote:
Hi,

I trying to find the present day location from which my grandparents came from. Can you please assist.
Passenger Nationality Place of Resistance Date of US Arrival
Annes Turek Austria,Polish Mosty, Silesia January 28, 1913
Paul Byrtus Austria, Polish Mosty, Silesia November 1, 1910
Jwan Gamba Hungary, Ruthenian Hidek, Hungary October 14, 1909
Hidekpohok or
Hidegpatak

Anna Kutchtiak Austria, Ruthenian Hajworouka, Austria October 19, 1912
Teodor Kuchtiak Poland, Polish Skalat, Galicia August 7, 1907

I would greatly appreciate any help


John Gomba


John,

I believe I found it all.

First of all, Ruthenian, Rutenian, Rusin, Rusyn, Lemko, all that names may refer to the same group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Hidek Potok.
Potok means stream in Polish (and probably similar in some other Slavic languages).

At one moment I googled Hidek Potok, and found this website
www.savingjews.org/righteous/gv.htm
where under GORCZYK, Stanislaw (1910-1985) you have a description of a trek:
... from Zamosc, through Stryj and Lvov to Skole ...
... One night they started to march the 60 Km. trek towards the border through the Tatra Mountains and after a few days reached Felszyn Hidek Potok, already in Hungary.

The village Skole, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine, is circa 30 km South-West of Stryj (Polish name Stryj, Ukrainian Cyrillic transliteration Stryi).

I tried to find Felszyn, and got it, with various names.
The Polish orthography is Felsztyn, and Wiki website gives an excellent description
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsztyn_%28obw%C3%B3d_lwowski%29

Today's name of Felsztyn is Skelivka, in Ukraina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skelivka
It's circa 20 km from today's border between Poland and Ukraina, search Ustrzyki Dolne, then look to the East in direction of Sambir. It's above Staryi Sambir (Staryi means Old, Old Sambir).

Felsztyn is here http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/382

==

Skalat is South-East of Ternopil, in Ukraine, quite a long distance (220 km) from Felsztyn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skalat

==

The most difficult was Hajworouka, Austria - it is (was) Hajworonka, close to Wiśniowczyk, see below.

I started with an old Gazeta Lwowska (OCR of an old printed text, tricky), where the name Hajworouka shows up.
Then digged various other villages in the same long sentence. Got a little lost with the name Podhajce and its variants (two Podhajce in today Ukraina, one in Poland; Podhajczyki in Lwow area).
Then I looked up other village from that Gazeta Lwowska sentence, Wiśniowczyk.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmina_Wi%C5%9Bniowczyk

And then BINGO, Wiśniowczyk, in the old geography book from that years:
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_XIII/614
That Wiśniowczyk is described 20 km South-East of Podhajec.
Left side, bottom, 4-th line: Hajworonka, on the North of Wiśniowczyk

Item Wiśniowczyk mentions Polish, Ruthenians, Germans in that area.

But where is that Wiśniowczyk?
Parish in Wiśniowczyk, dekanat Trembowelski

Dekanat!
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trembowla

It helps me to discriminate between various Podhajce today, and leads to
Podhajce, Ternopil's'ka oblast, Ukraine (South-West of Ternopil)
Trembowla, Ternopil's'ka oblast, Ukraine (South of Ternopil)
Skalat is as well within that grouping of places, South-East of Ternopil

In summary, your ancestors came from two places, one near Felsztyn aka Skelivka, 20 km from today's border Poland-Ukraina (Ustrzyki Dolne are the closest place), and the second near Ternopil, rough estimate of 130 km from Lwow, then additional 90 from Lwow to Felsztyn aka Skelivka.

ADDENDUM about Mosty, Slask.

Mosty here, left, middle, item 1)
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_VI/721
Wies powiat Jablonkowski na Slaszku Austriackim.
Lezy w okolicy gorzystej, w poblizu przeleczy Jablonkowskiej, na stokach Beskidu Szlaskiego

Today Jabłonków, in Czechy, few km from Polish border
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jab%C5%82onk%C3%B3w
"Jabłonków (cz. Jablunkov, niem. Jablunkau[2]) – miasto w Czechach w kraju morawsko-śląskim. Leży w regionie Śląska Cieszyńskiego, na tzw. Zaolziu, kilka kilometrów od granicy z Polską i jest najbardziej wysuniętym na wschód miastem w Czechach."

Mosty koło Jabłonkowa
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosty_ko%C5%82o_Jab%C5%82onkowa

Best,
Elzbieta

ADDENDUM: Just noted it's well correlated with Cheri's finding. Map attached.
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Henryk
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Lastly I wonder about the familiarity of the writer of the manifest with the language Anna and Jwan would have spoken. For example I think I read that there is no W in Ukranian as in Polish, so if Jwan is Ivan why is it spelled that way?

The cyrillic character B has the sound of the Polish w and English v.
Thus on a cyrillic map you will see:
Варшава = Polish Warszawa = English Varshava
and
Иван = Polish Iwan (Polish Jan) =English Ivan.
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PolishLibrarian
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henryk~ My apologies regarding this part of my post and thank you for the clarification. I added it hastily at the last minute. Ironically my name in Polish would begin with a W not a V as it does in English, so I am aware of the fact that in Polish W is pronounced like V. The J had me a little confused & it really was Jwan written on the manifest as there was Jan earlier on the manifest with the same written J letter. Part of my point was whether the person filling in the manifest was spelling the name of the town the way it sounded to his ears & not necessarily the way it would be spelled when transcribed from Cyrillic. But that is mute now, since Cheri & Elzbieta solved the mystery. ~PL
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jgomba



Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Jwan Gamba - John (Ivan) Gomba & Anna Kuchtiak Reply with quote

The present day location of Ukraine sounds right. Just wanted also to mention that Jwan Gamba is actually
Ivan GOMBA and after a year in America He called himself John.

He knew six languages Polish as well as Ukrainian that I know for sure. My Aunt never mentioned what the other languages were.

As far as the transcriber it must of been in Germany where the ship sailed from. It is not Ellis Island NY,NY for it was all done from where they shipped off from. I was told Ivan was very very proud of his name so it is definitely spelled GOMBA. That is most likely why they spelled Hidegpatak with a K instead of a G.

The problem I have is that I can not get any records of birth or marriage from Hidegpatak. I was using jewishgen.org and familylink.org. Do you have any ideas how I can find records of Ivan and his parents. They apparently were killed before He departed from Hidegpatak and not sure exactly why.

Thank you in advance,
John Gomba
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jgomba



Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all again for all your help. Any ideas how I can find records for Ivan's and Anna Kutchiak's birth/baptism as well as who their parents were. I saw a picture of a Martin Gomba that lives in the Ukraine and He is the same age as our youngest and is a spit image of him. I have noticed a lot of Byrtus and Turek living in Poland. So it would be Great to get as much information before going there.

Merry Christmas and Thank you all again for your assistance. God Bless. John Gomba
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