Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:14 pm
Post subject: Ortelsburg rogu village where are records?
I am still stuck and now I need help finding the Zacy and Rogu records. I was told before the Rogu parish records were these http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/ar17-zs0893d however upon looking through them all, which was very tedious as unfortunately there are no indexes anywhere at the end of the years, I could not find any Maluchniks. I looked at all marriages 1874-1880 and births for years births for years 1875, 1877 and 1879. I will look at 1876 and 1878 births next in case the death records are slightly off on their ages, however, Is there another place they would be? Not that it super matters as I really need their parents marriage record to get further back, but maybe a birth record would have a note about parents being married in another parish. I did find a record where a surname in it looked close to maluchnik, but I don't think it is. http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0893d&sy=1876e&kt=2&plik=031.jpg#zoom=1&x=1167&y=1800 Also worth noting 2 of my ancestors older brothers I assume were born in one of the Neidenburg parishes, as I cannot find their records in the Janowo ones. Antoni Maluchnik JR born March 24. 1885 and August Maluchnik born November 21, 1881. Since the Nidzica ones are organized by date, I went and looked all through those months in their corresponding year, I could not find either of them. Prehaps the records I need are in Prussia archives somewhere?
I have attached a scan of the geneteca index where it mentions those parishes on my ancestors records. Actually I'm only sure the last record is of my ancestors, but one of my ancestors is heading to a member of those other Maluchnik's in the passenger manifest. With that and the Neijenberg connection I am sure they must be related. I did trace Frank Maluchnik's ancestry back a bit but could find no connection in records between him and mine or other Maluchnik's my ancestors are heading to whom I can also not determine their relation to.
Another branch I connect to based off passenger manifest is branch of Jan Maluchnik and Malgorzata Oleksik, yet I can find nothing to support this or my connection to the Frank Maluchnik/Anna Rybacka line nor nothing to connect those 2 lines to each other. Neither line had a son Antoni anywhere near the correct age.
And unfortunately my Maluchnik's gave incorrect info of relation on their manifests, 1 referred to heading to his father Frank Maluchnik in NY on his passenger manifest and another refereed to heading to his father Joseph in Chicago. My ancestors parents were Antoni Maluchnik and Karolina Naplowska. The birth dates match mine, which also match the birth date on the naturalization papers where they put the date of their ship arrivals....so there is no way I have the wrong manifests. In fact I have just about every document I can find and get from Naturalization papers, to marriages to death certificates. I have noticed other then the passenger manifests at least 1 of my ancestors siblings deliberately gave both wrong birth date on her marriage record where it asked, yet on her husbands nat papers gave the correct one. She also gives wrong mothers name on her marriage record. Since I have her birth record that matches birth date on her naturalization papers, I know it's mine.
I'm hoping someone can find where I should look next so I can finally find the connection between all these. If anyone has any ideas why my ancestors were giving incorrect info on their manifests and in one case marriage record, I'd love to hear that too.
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Last edited by Lyn1982 on Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:29 am
Post subject:
I note that on your other thread, "Still Stuck on Ancestors even tho have many documents" on May 31, 2016 4:44 pm, Elzbieta Porteneuve translated Ludwig Maluchnik's January 1904 marriage record. She said "Ludwik Maluchnik, laborer, born in the Prussian Imperium, in the village Róg, ujezd=county Ortelsburg = Szczytno, prichod=parish Wilenberg = Wielbark, residing in the village Zembrzus, 24 years old, GROOM-PARENTS: son of Antoni and Karolina born Napałowska. [that would make his birth appx 1879 or 1880. I am focusing on the location description for the village of Róg - Prussian Imperium, in ujezd=county Ortelsburg = Szczytno, prichod=parish Wilenberg = Wielbark.
I know you in this post you were looking for Zacy and Rogu parishes records in Nidizca. Based on Ludwig Maluchnik's marriage records, I would probably also explore trying to find Wilenberg = Wielbark parish records for the eldest children of Antoni Maluchnik and Karolina Napałowska .
I found this site http://projekt-krolewiec.pl/en.html “East Prussia Warmia and Masuria Kaliningrad Oblast” regarding the “Archival heritage of former East Prussia” which may help you as they grow their site. I clicked on search and to my untrained eyes (not understanding any German and very little Polish) I did not see a link to your records at this time.
I also found a Wikipedia article on Wielbark, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship which talks about the Polish Catholic population and the catholic church built in 1878 – 1880.
Here is a link to the church http://archwarmia.pl/parafie/parafie/wielbark-parafia-swietego-jana-nepomucena/ I note the date there shows creation in 1888 rather than 1878, so I don’t know which is correct. You could try contacting them to see if they have the records you are looking for.
Note, per Elzbieta’s post regarding Ludwig Maluchnik’s marriage translation, she said “There is less than 5 km between Róg and Janowo, despite the fact that two villages are each in different Imperium. “ That’s less than 3 miles.
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:39 am
Post subject:
Thank you for the reply and the info. I didn't realize or notice rogu was in a different county. Someone did tell me before that the records for rogu were in the Nidzica archives, so that is where I thought they were. But from what I'm understanding Nidzica was a county, and if Rogu wasn't in that county it wouldn't make sense for the records to be there. Am I correct in this line of thinking? I am honestly finding this all a bit confusing. I did look around some on metryk just now and still cannot seem to find the records. The Nidzica ones are clearly in German and were with a German part of Poland and metryk has them.So, I don't know whether Metryk has them and I am looking in wrong place, or if they will carry them in the future, or if I need to be finding a Prussian site to search, or if there may be microfilms out there I need to look into. I may look into the church you posted some, though I have no idea how to write to Poland and would think there would have to be something online or microfilm. I am also confused as to why they would move like that. I know the distance was not far, however being that they would be under different rule and everything it seems kind of the equivalent of someone from the US living near the border moving to Canada. I wonder what rules and things were in place then regarding this or if people there had freedom to move like that.
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:18 pm
Post subject:
Lyn1982 wrote: | I am also confused as to why they would move like that. I know the distance was not far, however being that they would be under different rule and everything it seems kind of the equivalent of someone from the US living near the border moving to Canada. I wonder what rules and things were in place then regarding this or if people there had freedom to move like that. |
Lyn,
The people were not moving, the countries (partitions) were changing borders!
Just imagine you are living in Buffalo, NY, USA, sitting in your old house, and Canadians invade the territory, put their flag on the main street, and declare your house is now in Buffalo, Ontario, Canada, and you must speak French written in Cyrillic ...
Best,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:27 pm
Post subject:
Thank you for the info Elzbieta . I didn't realize that. That must have been very annoying for them! Don't suppose you have any idea where the records would be? I searched Ortelsburg and Szczytno and some other terms on metryki and not finding anything.
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 961
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:40 pm
Post subject:
Family Search has some microfilms for Wielbark
Notes
Taufen = birth
Mikrofilme aufgenommen von Manuskripten in Berlin, 1940.
Parish register transcripts of baptisms for Willenberg (Kr. Ortelsburg), Ostpreußen, Germany; now Wielbark, Olsztyn, Poland. Includes Opalenietz (Flammberg), now Opaleniec. Left-side pages (l. S.) filmed separately from right-side pages (r. S.)
Taufen 1820-1826 (r. S.) Land Taufen 1820-1826 (r. S.) Opalenietz
Family History Library
International Film
1196152
Taufen 1820-1826 (l. S.) Land Taufen 1820-1826 (l. S.) Opalenietz
Family History Library
International Film
1196153
Taufen 1827-1838 (r. S.) Land
Family History Library
International Film
1196148
Taufen 1827-1838 (l. S.) Land
Family History Library
International Film
1196149
Taufen 1852-1859 (r. S.) Land
Family History Library
International Film
1196150
Taufen 1852-1859 (l. S.) Land
Family History Library
International Film
1196151
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:06 pm
Post subject:
Thank you very much mcdonald. Unfortunately looks like they don't have what I would need to get further back. I would need marriages in 1870s. I assumed they married in the mid 1870s as first known child was borna bout 1877 and last known child born 1903.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:32 pm
Post subject:
Lyn, Elzbieta, & Cynthia,
The records from Wielbark go back far enough but the parish is Protestant and your ancestors were R.C.
Although borders changed during the partitions and in the time following the defeat and exile of Napoleon, in this case it was your ancestors who moved and not the borders. Even in the best years of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodow) East and West Prussia had much the same borders as Prussia/Germany had in that area in the late 19th Century (cf. attached map). A bit of history of late 19th Century Germany may help to clarify the picture. In 1871 Prussia defeated France in the Franco-Prussian War. At the same time the German states were united under the leadership of Prussia. The King of Prussia became Emperor of Germany. Otto von Bismarck, who was chancellor of Prussia became chancellor of Germany. He then instituted the policy of Kulturkampf which was anti-Catholic and anti-Polish and thus put Poles living under German rule between a rock and a hard place on two scores. As the years went by it became ever increasingly difficult for Poles to find work which led to the great emigration referred to as "za chlebem" ("for bread") which was at its high point from about 1870 to 1890. In 1874 Bismarck changed the way civil registrations were handled in the areas under German control. Prior to 1874 the Prussian government had Catholic priests and Protestant (mainly Lutheran) ministers submit copies of parish registers to serve as civil vital records. In 1874 recording keeping was separated from religious institutions and free standing registry offices were set up.
Some Poles from German controlled areas did cross into Russian Poland---usually for work. My maternal great grandfather was born in Jaksice in German Poland but as a young man moved to the parish of Izbica in Russian Poland where he resided with his brother when he married. Russian Poland was far from an ideal choice for a number of reasons but at least it was somewhat easier to obtain work there. The motivation may very possibly been the same for the Maluchniks with an added factor that the area where they lived in Prussia was heavily Protestant.
The records you painstakingly went through for Nidzica/Neidenburg were civil registrations compiled in the newly formed independent registry offices. The areas of jurisdiction of the civil registry offices did not necessarily conform to parish boundaries. Since Nidzica was a town and not a village the registry office there probably only took care of registrations from the town itself. The villages of Rog and Zachy were over 20 km from Nidzica---a large distance for villages belonging to a parish but not too unusual in an area with a small Catholic population. It would actually have been closer to go to the parish in Janowo except for the pesky border. Although people did cross from one empire to another parishes did not span national borders---but that is another topic. Thus it is likely that the registration office for those two villages was in a place other than Nidzica, possibily even in one of those two villages. But on to the $64,000 dollar question---where was the the civil registry office for those two villages? The answer is beyond my knowledge and I'm not sure where to find that info. The site BASIA can be searched for records from registry offices in the Prov. of Posen but not from the area in question. Perhaps someone else knows where and how to search for those offices. I suppose that if all else fails it would be possible to write to the Catholic parish in Nidzica. (There are 3 parishes but two of them were founded in 1989 and in 1993 so the third would be the place to contact.)
About the only thing this long explanation does is eliminate the need to search more online in Nidzica or in the films for Wielbark. It seems like you just can't catch a break in your search.
Sorry I can't direct you to the proper place to search.
Dave
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:55 am
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Thank you for the reply and all the info and the map Dave! Love hearing all the history. However, I believe my Antoni Maluchnik was born in russian controlled poland and moved out to german controlled poland, then moved back. Other Maluchnik's that I think are their ancestors were definitely born in russian controlled poland. However you mentioned some interesting things that really make me wonder why Antoni would chose to move to such an unfriendly place, where there also weren't very many of his faith. Since I can find very few Naplowska's or similar on geneteca, my guess is she (Karolina) was born in german controlled poland, possibly town Rogu or Zachy and that Antoni moved there for her. I believe one of the birth records mentioned Antoni being a carpenter so perhaps in his work he traveled a short distance and met her.
You also mentioned it being a very protestant area. My question is, could Karolina have been protestant? Or would a protestant and a catholic marring back then in that area have been unheard of? I can really think of no other reason for him to move there other then Karolina must have lived there. And can think of no reason why they would stay there after the marriage if it was unfriendly to catholics, unless she herself was protestant. And, apparently not only did my ancestor marry someone from german controlled Poland, but so did Frank Maluchnik from the other Maluchnik line that I know is connected to mine but cannot prove. His wife Anna Rybacka it says was born in Zachy. They however married in Janowo parish and didn't go back to german poland. I wish my ancestors had done the same, would make this so much easier!
I believe Antoni Maluchnik to be the son of Jan Maluchnik and Malgorzata Oleksik, though I cannot prove this because his birth record is missing and of course cannot find his marriage record. Jan and Malgorzata had many children and at least 3 of them have marriage or death records but no found birth record. 1 Elizabeta found before, Julian Maluchnik, Jan and Malgorzata did not even register his birth until he was a teenager. Julian was a twin and his twins birth was registered on time. It's very odd. My best guess is Antoni was a twin too and the parents just never got around to registering his birth. Not sure if it cost a lot of money to register a birth or not. So is all speculation. I do know twins run strongly on that side of the family as my grandfather was a twin with another set of twin siblings.
Unfortunately Jan and Malgorzata's marriage record I cannot find either, but I believe Jan to be the son of Paweł Maluchnik and Józefa Brzyzna (as that would tie him into the Frank Maluchnik whom married Anna Rybacka line), though I can again find no record of this. But, I have to be connected to both those maluchnik lines somehow for my ancestors to be heading to members of them in their ship manifests.
You are right that I just cannot seem to catch a break with this line! A lot of helpful people though, but the records just always seem to be lacking right where I need them. And if only 1 of my ancestors siblings had put the correct relation on their ship manifest. I really do not understand why they would put other male relatives as their father on their ship manifests. I wonder if the relations were so distant they just didn't know what to put and just made it up and put father. It's all very confusing. This is really one of those cases where I wish I could talk to an ancestor.
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sirdanPO Top Contributor
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Replies: 304
Location: ** Southeast Pole**Back to top |
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:55 pm
Post subject:
Hello Lyn
Im sorry i adviced You to search records of metryki in poczekalnia of genealodzy.pl. Oh well, its described as office records so assumed those are records of all faith. My bad, looks like like after Dave expailation theese records are lutheran olny. I couldnt found any RC online original records of Nidzica/Neidenburg nor copies of the records stored in National Archives.
So, the best place to look (as usual) is the real source which would be Nidzica parish. Wielbark parish was founded on 25 of january of 1888, so Nidzica parish (as death of 2 Maluchnik records stays) would the one to look first. So Nidzica contact is here http://archwarmia.pl/parafie/parafie/nidzica-parafia-niepokalanego-poczecia-najswietszej-maryi-panny-i-swietego-wojciecha/ for any translation to polish help do not hesitate, forum memebrs should help here.
Cheers
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:35 pm
Post subject:
Thank you for the link Sirdan. Regarding them being only Lutheran records, I should have noticed that I guess. I only looked at the names really. Anyway, I went to link, however I am not 100% sure how to write to Poland. I also wonder if those records will be added to metryki at some point in the near future possibly. I also took the link you gave into google translate and I did notice on the link that under parishes they have a link for documents for download. Not sure what that could be, records perhaps? Anyway I tried it but it wants me to login. Cannot seem to figure out how to register. I did click lost my password in hopes it would lead to registration, but no luck.
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sirdanPO Top Contributor
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Replies: 304
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:56 pm
Post subject:
The link under parish information is temporarily unavaiable. I checked archived copy by google and didnt see any interestinjg to download.
it didnt request me to sign.
I really cant say whether parish records gonna be added online or not, i doubt it will be. But while avaiting for any move for this, you could write a letter to priest and put estimated birth dates in letter, so that priest could find quickly other data.
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:42 pm
Post subject:
Thanks for looking. I mean the documents for download page here: http://archwarmia.pl/Security/login?BackURL=%2Fparafie%2Fdokumenty-do-pobrania%2F Not sure what that would be.
I will try to write a letter and post it here in the next few days as I'm sure google translate won't be perfect. What I really want though is the marriage record....and I have no idea when to ask them to look for that. I would assume since first known child born in 1877 and last known born in 1903 that marriage would be between 1875-1877, though there could be earlier children I don't know about. I do not know birthdates for any of the first few children, only death or marriage. There also are a couple of cases with the other Maluchnik's where the parents had a child or two before marrying, so it could even be after 1877.
I am confused why these wouldn't likely be added to geneteca like the other parish records. You mentioned a national archive, do most of polands parishes have copies of their records there and is that where geneteka/metryki get their records from?
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