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Mrudnik

Joined: 23 Feb 2016
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Birth Translations

dnowicki wrote:

Mrudnik wrote:

Hello All,

I need some assistance in translating the attached Birth Record. I believe it is the correct one. The date and place are correct. With what I can decipher of the parents names seems correct, but the first name is different. My Great grandfathers name was Wasyl and this is listed as Basilius. I know that in these records the names are written in their Latin form so is Basilius the Latin form of Wasyl?

As always, Thank you for your assistance.

Mike

Mike,

Wasyl is the Ukrainian form of the Latin Basilius, which in English is Basil and in Polish is Bazyli. The words agricola/agricolae hujus pagi which are found after the names of grandparents and sponsors are describing the occupations of individuals---farmer/farmers of this village. If you have any questions regarding the remaining given names in the record I'll be happy to answer them.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Thank You Dave. Very helpful as always.

Actually I could use help translating the rest of the names as well. I can determine Mikolaj and Catherina as the parents first names, but the rest are eluding me.

Again, thanks.

Mike

dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Birth Translations

[quote="dj_michnal"]

Mrudnik wrote:

Hello All,

I found this (see entry below) in another forum which might explain it for you. I can't vouch for the accuracy of this info but the author seems to know what they're talking about...in short the name Wasyl is the Polish spelling of a Ukranian name that would be spelled in Cyrillic in Ukraine. The Polish equivalent of this name appears to be Bazyli, which when latinized apparently turns into Basilius.

"Wasyl is another Polish spelling of a Ukrainian name. As Natalie Lisowiec rightly said, there is no W in Ukrainian. But you must remember most people who use
the Roman alphabet use W to stand for the V sound; we English-speakers are the oddballs in this respect. So the original Ukrainian name (which is of course
written in the Cyrillic alphabet) would be rendered Vasyl' in our alphabet. But Poles would write it Wasyl because to them W = v-sound. The reason we often
see Polish-influenced spellings of Ukrainian names is simple: Ukrainians use the Cyrillic alphabet, but when their names were rendered in the Roman alphabet,
it was often by Polish officials or people fluent in Polish. So the Polish spelling tended to stick.

The standard Polish form of this name is Bazyli..." see the following site for a full discussion: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PolandBorderSurnames/2001-01/0978973321

dj michnal,

It is true that the Ukrainian alphabet has no "w" and that "Wasyl" is the way a Pole would write the Ukrainian name. What is NOT ACCURATE is the statement that "most people who use the Roman alphabet use W to stand for the V sound; we English-speakers are the oddballs in this respect..." The opposite is true---V stands for the V sound in most Indo-European languages which employ the Roman/Latin alphabet or modifications of that alphabet, which includes all of Western Europe, the British Isles, Australia, and North and South America, etc. The use of W to symbolize the V sound, as it is in Polish, is the exception. The Latin/Roman alphabet originally had no W, which was a very late addition to the alphabet. The Cyrillic alphabet used in Russia, Ukraine, etc. is derived from the Greek alphabet. The spread of the two alphabets, Latin and Cyrillic, is due to Christian missionary activity. The two main centers of Christianity were Rome and Constantinople/Byzantium. Missionaries from Rome to Western Europe used the Latin alphabet. Missionaries from Constantinople to Eastern Europe took the Greek alphabet as a starting point and modified/developed it into the Cyrillic alphabet. At the end of the First Millennium Poland could have gone either way---Rome or Constantinople. Poland saw its future as best served by attachment to the West, i.e. Rome and accepted Christianity from Latin Rite missionaries who, for better or for worse, made the Roman/Latin alphabet work to symbolize the sounds of the Polish language. The reason Polish spellings of Ukrainian given names tend to predominate is because what is now Ukraine was for centuries part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodow) and Eastern Rite (aka) Greek Catholics after their reunion with the Roman Church kept church records (especially after the partitions) in the Latin language although their Liturgy continued to be celebrated in Church Slavonic. (As an interesting historical side note, during the middle of the 17th Century a modification to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was proposed which would have changed it into the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Trojga Narodow---cf. attached map.) Contemporary events in Ukraine are a good example of the tension of where a nation sees its future---West or East.

The long and short of it is that a Pole would use W for the Ukrainian given name whereas others who use the Roman alphabet would use the letter V.

Dave

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dj_michnal

Joined: 03 Apr 2013
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:36 am Post subject:

That sounds right. My first name is spelled with a v almost everywhere except poland it seems. (David vs. Dawid in polish). As I mentioned, I didn't write the comment, I just found it. The explanation regarding the Polish version of the name vs. the Ukrainian version sounds right though. I don't get why he would have chosen Charles in the US though. My great grandfather's use of Albert for Wojciech makes sense via the Saint-name day method but I am clueless about using Charles for Wasyl.

dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:51 pm Post subject:

dj_michnal wrote:

David,

The only other spelling for David without a v of which I am aware is the Welsh Dafydd. No matter how you spell it David is a fine name.
The explanation of Polish vs Ukrainian is correct. It is the generalization of v vs w which is not.
The proper English for Wojciech is Adalbert but some men, like your great grandfather, used Albert in English although the two are distinct names. The Latin for Adalbert is Adalbertus whereas the Latin for Albert is Albertus. Just to add another "Why this English Name?" into the mix, a large number of Polish male immigrants in the Chicago area during the late 19th and early 20th Centuries whose name was Wojciech used the name George. Who knows they why and the wherefore of that choice. Maybe Sherlock Holmes could explain that mystery.

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Birth Translations

Mike[/quote

Actually I could use help translating the rest of the names as well. I can determine Mikolaj and Catherina as the parents first names, but the rest are eluding me.

Again, thanks.

Mike[/quote]

Mike,

I'm sure of all the given names in the record but not of many of the surnames. For those it is a question of reading the handwriting and there are not enough known words in the record for me to use as a baseline for the priest's formation of some letters. In the translation the given names are translated first into Polish followed by the English version.

Why Charles as a substitute for Wasyl/Basil is one of those mysteries for which no explanation wants to jump off the page any more than why did some immigrants in the Chicago area choose to use the English name George for Wojciech/Adalbert. What I do know is that the phenomenon of choosing to use English names not related to the actual given name was not unique to Polish immigrants. My nephew asked me to research his daughter's ancestry and she has some Croatian ancestors on her mother's side. One ancestor who immigrated at the turn of the century had the given name of Gregorius in Latin/Gregory in English/Grgur in Croatian but he called himself George in the USA. Again, why? Where is Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson when you need them?

In the record it causes one to wonder what name Paraskewy(Polish)/Parascheva(English) would have used had she immigrated to the USA.

Anyway, here is the transcription and translation.

Dave

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ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:28 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave,

I've been away from the Latin forum for a while, I imagine you have quite the backlog of requests to clear out. I think I put up a few translation requests a week or so ago, just wanted to make sure they didn't get lost in the enormity of work you do for us
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Mrudnik

Joined: 23 Feb 2016
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Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Birth Translations

dnowicki wrote:

Mike[/quote

Actually I could use help translating the rest of the names as well. I can determine Mikolaj and Catherina as the parents first names, but the rest are eluding me.

Again, thanks.

Mike

Mike,

I'm sure of all the given names in the record but not of many of the surnames. For those it is a question of reading the handwriting and there are not enough known words in the record for me to use as a baseline for the priest's formation of some letters. In the translation the given names are translated first into Polish followed by the English version.

Why Charles as a substitute for Wasyl/Basil is one of those mysteries for which no explanation wants to jump off the page any more than why did some immigrants in the Chicago area choose to use the English name George for Wojciech/Adalbert. What I do know is that the phenomenon of choosing to use English names not related to the actual given name was not unique to Polish immigrants. My nephew asked me to research his daughter's ancestry and she has some Croatian ancestors on her mother's side. One ancestor who immigrated at the turn of the century had the given name of Gregorius in Latin/Gregory in English/Grgur in Croatian but he called himself George in the USA. Again, why? Where is Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson when you need them?

In the record it causes one to wonder what name Paraskewy(Polish)/Parascheva(English) would have used had she immigrated to the USA.

Anyway, here is the transcription and translation.

Dave[/quote]

Thank You as always Dave. I can try to decipher more of the surnames with what you gave me. I know the Fathers is Karpa (Which turned to Carper in the US). The rest I will figure out.

dnowicki
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:07 am Post subject:

ossnhughie wrote:

Hugh,

Here are two of the translations you requested.

Dave

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ossnhughie
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:44 pm Post subject:

Thanks Dave,

Clearly the mothers in each record had different surnames, but the parents in both records are from the same village and the name of the father is the same?? Are you thinking different people or a clerical error in the last name??

Hugh
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dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:27 pm Post subject:

ossnhughie wrote:

Hugh,

The records you have been posting are most certainly a copy of the original entries in the parish baptismal register. Since the handwriting is the same for a period of more than 65 years and since the digital copies are housed in a state archive and since the entries end circa 1800 (5 years after the Third Partition) it is probable that the copy was required by the Russian government. So a clerical error is possible, but there are other possible explanations for the variation in the mother's maiden name. In my opinion, that there was a second couple with the same names except the maiden name of the mother is not at all probable for a number of reasons.

In the past I've expressed my view of the ultimate goal of providing translations. When I taught I firmly believed that a teacher's goal is to provide the students with the tools necessary for them to become self sufficient. I believe that the same goal applies in providing translations . Thus I've only translated your third request and leave the fourth for you to translate on your own.

Of the three languages used in Polish records Latin should be far and away the easiest to understand for someone who has not studied the language. The baptismal records you have posted in the past contain very few Latin words, are made up of two simple declarative sentences, and admit of little variation. All those entries use the Perfect Tense of the Latin verb. Some are in the Active Voice and the remainder are in the Passive Voice and in both the vocabulary is very limited. Since you've now seen numerous examples of translated baptismal records, I'm confident that you should be able to produce an acceptable translation on your own. As far as I recall, the most recent place I posted resources which I compiled is on page 101 of this forum.

Should you have any questions or difficulties, please feel free to ask for help and I'll be happy to provide it for you.

Wishing you the satisfaction that comes from translating on your own,

Dave

P.S. The note regarding months should read "seven through ten" rather than "seven through twelve."

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WSheleski

Joined: 24 Aug 2014
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:28 pm Post subject: Priest of One Parish Celebrates Wedding in Another

I always find Dave's inputs to be interesting.

As far as having a priest officiating at a wedding at a different parish, this is not that unusual. My sister's husband had a high school buddy who became a priest. For some reason, this priest buddy didn't officiate at my sister's wedding (maybe he wasn't a priest then), but he officiated at my sister's son's wedding. He was not assigned to the parish but this obviously was worked out with the local parish's pastor.

Oh, and don't be (too) surprised when somebody gets married at a parish other than the one you think. My ancestors always seemed to have their BMD recorded at a certain Polish parish. I could never find my GGF's brother's marriage even though his wife's family always seemed to have their BMD recorded at my family's parish. Finally, I started looking at surrounding parishes. Yup, the marriage record showed up at an adjacent parish. I don't know why. Maybe the priest at the family parish was on vacation or ill or the regular church was being renovated or they just didn't like the priest for some reason.

brymsza

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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Priest of One Parish Celebrates Wedding in Another

I was told that the wedding "normally" was held in the village/town of the bride. I have found this to be true in most cases at least with my family.

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Priest of One Parish Celebrates Wedding in Another

WSheleski wrote:

WShelski & Bob,

I'm glad that you find my inputs aka ramblings interesting...but on to the question about where marriages were to take place... The 1917 Code of Canon Law (which was a compilation in one place of existing scattered rules) states whose right it was to celebrate a marriage in Canon 1094: "Such marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the pastor or the Ordinary of the place (the bishop of the diocese), or a priest delegated by either of them and at least two witnesses, according to etc., etc." Another canon in the same section states that the bishop or the pastor has the right to bless marriages from the time that he is appointed to the benifice. The key to all this stuff is the word "benifice" or the income connected with being a bishop or a pastor. In other words, the offering given at a wedding was his income by right of law. The rule that the wedding was to take place in the parish of the bride was meant to level the playing field. Obviously some pastors were/are more popular than others so by stipulating that the right to bless the marriage belonged to the pastor of the parish of the bride gave popular and unpopular pastors a more or less equal income opportunity. But notice that the pastor (or the bishop) could delegate another priest to bless the marriage. Then the offering went to the delegated priest. In actuality, assistant priests assigned to a given parish didn't have the right to bless a marriage (and keep the offering) without being delegated by the pastor of the parish. Of course, assistants were routinely delegated and other priests such as relatives or friends of the couple could and were delegated as a matter of courtesy, if you will. I've mentioned before that my maternal uncle was a diocesan priest in Chicago. The attached screen shot is of my uncle being delegated by the pastor of the parish where my mother resided (which was the same parish where my uncle was baptized and grew up) to bless the marriage of my parents. It is sort of cool to have records where one personally knew everyone in the record. (The pastor, John Lange, had been pastor of the parish for 45 years, including all the years I was in grammar school.)

From a purely linguistic perspective the part of the entry where Lange signed is interesting (although probably not to everyone). Latin verbs, and English verbs too, have two voices, Active (where the subject acts) and Passive (where the subject is acted upon). Classical Greek had those same voices with the addition of another voice---the Middle Voice (in which the subject acts upon him/her or itself. (Polish verbs don't exactly have a middle voice but use the reflexive pronoun to indicate that the subject is acting upon itself. A very common example is the way Polish records express the action of the informant---stawil sie, which most literally means "placed himself" but is rendered into better English as "appeared") Anyway, the Latin phrase "Rem ita se habere testor", which is actually Indirect Discourse (Accusative with reflexive pronoun + Infinitive) which depends on the main verb, "testor". The literal translation is: "I attest that the thing had itself thus", which is pretty clumsy English. The infinitive "habere" (to have) + the reflexive pronoun "se" is acting like the Greek Middle Voice. Of course, that explanation produces a yawn and a hearty "So what?" However, I've always found such linguistic stuff cool.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...E. Plawinski (who was not assigned to the parish) was delegated by the pastor, J. Lange, to bless the marriage. He was also delegated by the same pastor for the marriages of his other siblings, cousins, and assorted other relatives. If bride from parish A wanted to have her wedding in parish B, it was customary for the pastor of her parish to write a note delegating the pastor of parish B to bless the marriage and then everything was on the up and up. Such delegations, after all, were just a matter of professional courtesy.

With the hope that this helps clarify the whys and the wherefores of who got to bless marriages,

Dave

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braksator

Joined: 27 Jul 2016
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:03 am Post subject:

Hi, just a short one (highlighted).
Marianna Braxator birth from Parzniewice (Bogdanów parish). I'm wondering if the parents names are Anna (mother) and Joannes/Jan (father)?
I can't tell what the date is either, I believe it's in October 1795. I think it says something like "date as above" and I see things in a few records above like "1ma" and "4ta" but I don't know what that means?
Also if you have any opinion why older latin records often have Braxator written like "Braxatore" or "Braxatoris" I would be interested to hear the theories.
TIA

dź Bogdanów Births (Akta urodzeń) 180...s (Akta zgonów) 1795-1809 - 1795 0 Marianna braxator - record-image_33S7-9T5H-GRT - highlighted.jpg

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dnowicki
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:53 pm Post subject:

braksator wrote:

TIA,

The record you posted provides an interesting picture of what was happening in the parish of Bogdanow in 1795 but it is a burial record rather than a birth & baptism record. The first 4 records on the left page are for the month of November and the last two records on the right page are for the month of January 1796. All the other records are for December, 1795. Two interesting things are: 1. one entry records the fact that the bones housed in the ossuarium and were buried in the northern part of the cemetery. (Since graves were recycled sometimes bones from earlier burials were dug up when the grave was being reused. Those bones were stored in an ossuarium and an entry in the left page gives the date when the ossuarium was emptied and where those bones were re-buried.) and 2. Most of the entries record the burial of infants and young children and the vast majority died of the same disease---pustularum, i.e. pox. The word can indicate any one of a number of poxes such as smallpox or chickenpox, etc. Given the age of those who died of this disease and given the fact that no adults died of the same disease, it would seem that the pox was chickenpox, which at that time often had complications which resulted in the death of the child.

To answer your questions...1. The father of Maryanna is Jan, but the mother's name is not entered; 2. The date of burial was December 4 (cf. transcription & translation); 3. 1ma is the way the First Day of a month was entered. The Latin in written form is "prima"/first and 4ta is for "quarta"/"fourth". In English we do the same thing by writing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. The Latin for the first five ordinal numbers in this form are 1ma, 2da, 3ia, 4ta, 5ta, etc. To answer an unasked question...the months in the format used in these records are 7bris (September), 8bris (October), 9bris (November), and 10bris (December). The numbers of these months do not correspond to their position in the calendar year because originally the Roman year began in March (when the numbers did make sense) but when the beginning of the year was changed to January the numbers remained the same and thus no longer correspond to the place of the months in the calendar.
To answer your question about braxator appearing as braxatoris or braxatore...braxator is one of the spellings used in post-Classical Latin for the noun "brewer". The endings "is" and "e" (and also "i" and "em") are case endings in the Singular for Third Declension nouns so depending on how the word is being used in a sentence the endings change. This is just an educated guess but perhaps the origin of the surname Braksator is found in the occupation---brewer. The change from x to ks is a Polish thing. Polish very rarely uses the letter "X" and so the sound of that letter is symbolized in Polish by the letters "ks". Some examples of this are given names like Felix or Alexander (Latin & English) appearing as Feliks or Aleksander in Polish.

Anyway, here is the transcription and translation.

Latin Text: Parzniewice. D(ie) ead(em) ut supra [i.e. 4ta 10bris] sepulta est Marianna semimedij anni morbo pustular(um) obiit [filia] L(egitima) Joannis Braxatoris.
Translation: Parzniewice. On the same day as above [i.e. December 4] Maryanna, one half a year old [i.e. 6 months old] the legitimate [daughter] of Jan Braxator was buried. She died of the disease of pox.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Dave

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