PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:44 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:44 am

educatorvirtual wrote:

But I meant, was he her guardian before their marriage, because maybe her parents were deceased and she was a child without a caretaker who was a close relative? When she came of age, he married her? This is just a supposition on my part - I really don't know for sure!

Educato,

Nothing in the record suggests that.

In the usual marriage record, the name of parents of both, groom and bride, are given, as well as place of residence.
I looked up places noted on your jpeg,
Brzóstków, Poland
Chrzan, Polska
Gęczew, Poland
- it is all nearby.

There is a number of scans for Brzostkow in archives
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/search?q=brzostkow%20XSKANro%3At

Maybe you could search for birth record of Elzbieta Lisiewska, get her parents' names and birth place.
Dig more on Michal Szuwala side.

Bonne chance,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

educatorvirtual — Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:00 am

Author: educatorvirtual

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:00 am

Elzbieta:

The scan came from an LDS film of a church register. I have not been able to locate a civil record as of yet.

Thank you.

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

educatorvirtual — Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:52 am

Author: educatorvirtual

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:52 am

Elzbieta:

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, of course, as her husband, after she is married he is her "guardian!" But I meant, was he her guardian before their marriage, because maybe her parents were deceased and she was a child without a caretaker who was a close relative? When she came of age, he married her? This is just a supposition on my part - I really don't know for sure!

Re: Addendum to Question about Marriage Record

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:28 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:28 am

educatorvirtual wrote:

:
Here is scan of couple's names. Could Michael have been Elisabeth's (bride's) guardian? Thank you for your assistance!

Educato,

I typed what I could see. It looks rather like annotations, not civil records. I am curious to learn where this page (document) come from.

1: Marcin (illegible)
groom is young man, from Liszewo
bride is widow, from Geczewo
"w kosciele parafialnym" means at the local church - we can deduce it speaks about a marriage being held or announced in the local church
The annotation on the right could be "consensus jezuicii" if I decipher correctly jezuicii. That could mean, that Jesuites did approved and marriage can be celebrated.

2: Adalbertus Regner
The annotation is "non consensus jezuicii", not approved for marriage.

3: Michal Szuwala, widower
and Elzbieta Lisiewska
The annotation is "malzenstwo zawarte i poblogoslawione", marriage celebrated and blessed.

To answer your question: "Could Michael have been Elisabeth's (bride's) guardian?" He married her, and as her husband became her guardian

Best,
Elzbieta
==

Marcin (illegible) |
Kawaler z Liszewa |
Jadwiga Kazmierczak | wdowa | 28 | 29 |
wdowa z Geczewa | consensus |
w Kosciele parafilanym | jezuicii ?

Idem 28/938
Adalbertus Regner | non | 28 |
Kawaler z Konstancina | consensus |
Maryanna Przygodzka | jezuicii ?
panna z Brzostkowa |

Idem
Michal Szuwala wdowiec | wdowiec
z Chrzanu z | pod
Elzbieta Lisiewska | opieka
panna z Brzostka |
malzenstwo zawarte i |
poblogoslawione. |

Roch Taszarek wdowiec |
z Brzostkowa |

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

educatorvirtual — Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:36 am

Author: educatorvirtual

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:36 am

Elzbieta:
Thank you for your response.
The record I provided above is for my great grandfather's second marriage. So far, I cannot find any evidence of the death of the first wife or evidence of any children of the first marriage. Did they do such a thing as a "quiet divorce" back then, prior to remarriage?

When you say "full record" could you explain what you mean? Thank you!

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:28 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:28 am

dnowicki wrote:

Elzbieta & Gilberto,

Wdowiec, of course, refers to the groom (age 34) and pod opieka refers to the bride (age20). So the name or title of the person responsible for the care of the bride must follow. As Gilberto said, the full image would make it possible to understand the full import of the entry.

Dave

Dave, Gilberto,

I agree that without the full record, we do not know much.

I wonder if 21 years was not the legal age of majority, which would explain that note. In some previous records, I noted a case where a witness, brother of birth’s declaring person, was 21 years "evolved" - a kind of observation by the civil record officer "I did my duty to ask/to check”.
In the most common case, the bride was staying with her parents, and her father had to agree.

Best,
Elzbieta

Addendum to Question about Marriage Record

educatorvirtual — Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:20 am

Author: educatorvirtual

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:20 am

dnowicki wrote:

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

dnowicki — Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:41 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:41 am

Elzbieta & Gilberto,

Wdowiec, of course, refers to the groom (age 34) and pod opieka refers to the bride (age20). So the name or title of the person responsible for the care of the bride must follow. As Gilberto said, the full image would make it possible to understand the full import of the entry.

Dave

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:53 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:53 am

Educato, Gilberto,

I read it "wdowiec pod opieką"
- widower under the care of

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

Anonymous — Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:28 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:28 pm

Educato,

the second word is POD, but I have no idea about the third word. Looks like it ends picka or pieka (a-tailed).
I would suggest you to upload the full image, so that volunteers can compare the letters in other lines/records.

Gilberto

Help with Polish Words in Marriage Register

educatorvirtual — Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Author: educatorvirtual

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Would someone be kind enough to figure out what the second and third words are - this is a photo taken with my iphone of an LDS film. I know that the first word means "widower" but cannot determine what the other two words are. Thank you for any assistance! [/img][/b]