PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:29 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:29 am

Dear All,

This is the first fruit of our discussion here.

New thread in the Forum: http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2387 .

Main page of the Indexation of Translations project: http://polishorigins.com/document/indexation .

I hope from this seed we will grow something meaningful for all of us and those who will join us in the future.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:57 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:57 am

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Magroski49 wrote:

Zenon and Aga,

I am ready to start indexing.

Gilberto

So do I.

Elzbieta

Thank you Elzbieta and Gilberto. We are working now on templates and instruction for indexing for all. When we are ready we will publish everything and we will start

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:58 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:58 am

Magroski49 wrote:

Zenon and Aga,

I am ready to start indexing.

Gilberto

So do I.

Elzbieta

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Anonymous — Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:50 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:50 am

Zenon and Aga,

I am ready to start indexing.

Gilberto

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:46 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:46 am

Dear All,

During the last few weeks number of requests for records translations, especially Russians and Polish, dramatically increased. I don't have to tell you, participants of this particular discussion, about amount of work required for doing one translation. But many others may not be aware that time of translation of one record means at least one hour of work, and in more complicated, hard to read documents or if you have to check geography, it is more than 2 hours of the highest quality work.

Taking into account the two facts: increased number of requests and potential usefulness of indexes of translated records this is what I propose to implement.

Firstly, Aga graciously agreed to be coordinator of the indexing project. Thank you Aga.

Secondly, we will set up new threads related to each translation topics: Russian, Polish and Latin. In this threads people sending translations requests will be asked to fill in index of the translated records for them. On regular basis coordinator will inform on the given language thread which translations are not indexed yet (or we would like to index in given period of time - for example a month).

Thirdly, all files with indexes from indexing volunteers will be sent to coordinator who will be copying them into one, separate document for each language available for anyone for viewing. Only coordinator will have editing rights in this document.

Of course, as always, all details will be verified during implementation and realization the project. And we have to keep it simple. But this is what I think we should start with to take off and improve the process while realizing it.

Thank you to all for sharing your ideas and comments (also in your emails), especially to Elzbieta and Gilberto. I used them in this plan.

If you have any remarks to this implementation plan please let us know.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:29 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:29 am

Dear All,

This week I am planning a short vacation with family and next week I would like to come back to this project. So please if you have any more suggestions let us know about them. Also, the most critical issue now (after shaping the final structure of the project) seems to be finding coordinator of the project. I don't dare to ask any of you directly about that because you already engage so much in translations and helping others. However, if any of you think she or he would be willing to do this please let us know.

We will also prepare separate information about the project to spread out the word in our Newsletter.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:50 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:50 am

Dear All,

First, Elzbieta (and all) you can now upload Excel (xls) files to our Forum posts.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I am sure that copying long URLs into Excel or similar will not fly. But analysing how PO backend (i.e. operating system inside) works, I could simplify.

I find copying and pasting urls to columns more natural and easier than adding additional columns with numbers related to topics (Russian, Polish, Latin) and files which you will have to search by making many clicks. If you want to find given scan and translation you just click on the link inside column and you can see immediately the relevant page. I don't use Excel and I can't test it but in case of Drive spreadsheet you can narrow the columns with links and still have access to hyperlink without having a wide column. I modified your template by narrowing the last columns with links link so you can test how it looks and works.

I think that even if you had to do three more clicks to make to link to scan/translation active in Excel (as I said, don't have it and can't test it) it still will be less complicated, especially for viewers, to see and access the original records and its translation. What do you think?

Another general operational issue which came to my mind. We all have our own habits, methods and favorites applications we use. I think we should take advantage of the conversion feature which is available between all the spreadsheet software. Excel files can be converted to Google spreadsheet and vice versa. The same is with the OpenOffice spreadsheet (Calc). The most important issues are:

1. To have template available for everyone in each software (Excel, Drive, OpenOffice).
2. General file available for everyone to view and only for coordinator to edit.
3. Coordinator who will be adding (copying) indexing work of others into the general file/website available for all viewers and other databases (e.g. Geneteka).

dnowicki wrote:

It seems that the idea has evolved into a dual purpose project: 1) An in-house database to be used by Polish Origins site visitors; and 2) a spreadsheet or database to be sent to groups like Geneteka or BASIA to be entered into their search bases.

I think by having the one Drive spreadsheet, which can be in any moment saved as an Excel file, we can realize these two goals at a time.

dnowicki wrote:

Obviously since the Polish translations and the Russian translations almost all originate from records from the Russian Partition (Congress Kingdom), almost everything there (with the exception of things like notes from family members) could be of use to sites like Geneteka. Since civil registrations in both the German and Austrian Partitions as well as Catholic ecclesiastical records from all three Partitions were kept in Latin, those records could also be of use to the same sites. But since Catholic Church records were kept in Latin throughout the world quite a few of the records which have been translated are from countries other than Poland. An index of those records would not be of value to other sites but such records like those which Elzbieta refers to as the Christmann Dynasty may be of interest and value to someone using the Polish Origins site.

Maybe let's start with typical BMD records and maybe with time we will develop method of indexing the other kind of documents?

dnowicki wrote:

I would offer some thoughts about the contents or rather the headings of the spreadsheets. In addition to the earlier suggestion about including parents' names to the birth and marriage records, it would also be helpful for researchers to add a column for parents' names and another for the name of the spouse in the death record sheet. Although sometimes that information is not found in a death record, when it is it can make research a lot faster and easier. Finally, witnesses are listed only in the civil registrations of the Russian Partition where they were required by the Napoleonic format but witnesses per se are not listed in records from the other Partitions but only appear in marriage records as two of the three witnesses to the marriage vows. Of course, in a sense the sponsors in birth/baptism records are witnesses but that is not their primary function in the record.

I agree Dave that the information may be very valuable. When we have all opinions we will work out the final shape of template. We can also use learning experience of others who already indexed millions of records. Here is description and template of Geneteka (it is in Polish but I think general guidelines are understandable to everyone and we are very close to this benchmark now): http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/jak-indeksowac-U-Z.php?lang=eng .

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

dnowicki — Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Zenon, Elzbieta, Gilberto, Ryszard et al.

It seems that the idea has evolved into a dual purpose project: 1) An in-house database to be used by Polish Origins site visitors; and 2) a spreadsheet or database to be sent to groups like Geneteka or BASIA to be entered into their search bases. Both uses appeal to me but I would like to share some thoughts from the perspective of Latin Records Translations. Obviously since the Polish translations and the Russian translations almost all originate from records from the Russian Partition (Congress Kingdom), almost everything there (with the exception of things like notes from family members) could be of use to sites like Geneteka. Since civil registrations in both the German and Austrian Partitions as well as Catholic ecclesiastical records from all three Partitions were kept in Latin, those records could also be of use to the same sites. But since Catholic Church records were kept in Latin throughout the world quite a few of the records which have been translated are from countries other than Poland. An index of those records would not be of value to other sites but such records like those which Elzbieta refers to as the Christmann Dynasty may be of interest and value to someone using the Polish Origins site.
Since the technical aspects of computers is not my field, I don't know whether or not it would be difficult to index the records where you would in a sense "keep two sets of books." For the same reason I have nothing to say about the technical discussion of spreadsheets, format, links, etc. However, I would offer some thoughts about the contents or rather the headings of the spreadsheets. In addition to the earlier suggestion about including parents' names to the birth and marriage records, it would also be helpful for researchers to add a column for parents' names and another for the name of the spouse in the death record sheet. Although sometimes that information is not found in a death record, when it is it can make research a lot faster and easier. Finally, witnesses are listed only in the civil registrations of the Russian Partition where they were required by the Napoleonic format but witnesses per se are not listed in records from the other Partitions but only appear in marriage records as two of the three witnesses to the marriage vows. Of course, in a sense the sponsors in birth/baptism records are witnesses but that is not their primary function in the record.
I believe the entire project to be very worthwhile both for anyone using the Polish Origins site and for someone using sites like Geneteka or BASIA.

There has been much excellent input.

Dave

Re: Benchmarking

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:21 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:21 pm

BobK wrote:

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror ! The Extension xls is not allowed -

Can you save your file as CSV .. text ..

If not, rename the CSV to TXT and explain that it needs to be renamed first.

Thanks for all your work!

Bob K.

Bob,

Thank you for positive support! See what I wrote to Gilberto, and please give your opinion.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:17 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:17 pm

Magroski49 wrote:

Elzbieta,

I understand the "topic number' and "15 units per page".

"Go to page 1,2,3.....57,58,59, Next" has always been a difficult way for me to find a translation. If I want acess the page 35, I have to go to the page 57 and then click back until I get to page 35. Never figured out if there is a shorter/easier solution for this.

"Knowing the starting point of each topic": didn't understand how one will know where a topic starts.

Gilberto, I cannot agree more - therefore I was trying to understand how to get fast to the page 57.

The method is simple:

- we have 3 "starting points" (those numbers show for the first page of each, that was my little understanding of underlying system)
t=1814 Polish records translations
t=335 Russian records translations
t=1759 Latin records translations

- go to 57, means jump over 56; 56*15 ("15 units per page") = 840

- if you want to go to 57 on Polish translations, it's:

http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=840
( in the middle t=1814, and at the end 840, anything else is invariant)

- if you want to go to 57 on Russian translations, it's:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=335&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=840
(same method, with t=335)

Of course the above is calculation by hand, but in an Excel you put the formula in a cell, and then it's just click

Quote:

Calculating system: didn't understand.

The way I see it, the only thing a researcher knows for sure is the surname he/she is looking for. How will he/she know if there is a .jpeg file in PO database, and more, what is the number of that file? Without these information, how the calculation will be done?

That is precisely the point, how to do it.

Please go to the Google drive prepared by Zenon. I did replace his initial columns by exactly what I had in my Excel I could not post here (therefore PDF). So now you have it live.

In each category - births, marriages, death - you use one line per record, put there information you have, including original jpeg with record. The last 2 colums are automaticaly calculated "click" to get to (1) original jpeg ; 2) page with translation

The drive is like an Excel, you can sort it by every column, so you can have it by date of birth (or marriage), or name of groom, etc.

Please try Zenon's links in his post:
Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:55 am
I love this idea
==

NB. My example is real from yesterday-today translated records, I copied it to be sure to have it safe.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Benchmarking

BobK — Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:12 pm

Author: BobK

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:12 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror ! The Extension xls is not allowed -

Can you save your file as CSV .. text ..

If not, rename the CSV to TXT and explain that it needs to be renamed first.

Thanks for all your work!

Bob K.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Anonymous — Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:31 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:31 pm

Elzbieta,

I understand the "topic number' and "15 units per page".

"Go to page 1,2,3.....57,58,59, Next" has always been a difficult way for me to find a translation. If I want acess the page 35, I have to go to the page 57 and then click back until I get to page 35. Never figured out if there is a shorter/easier solution for this.

"Knowing the starting point of each topic": didn't understand how one will know where a topic starts.

Calculating system: didn't understand.

The way I see it, the only thing a researcher knows for sure is the surname he/she is looking for. How will he/she know if there is a .jpeg file in PO database, and more, what is the number of that file? Without these information, how the calculation will be done?

Gilberto

Benchmarking

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:24 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:24 pm

Larry, Gilberto, Zenon, Dave, Starypolak, All,

Yesterday and today I translated half a dozen of records, with my tagging system (one-woman-tricks), then put it into Benchmark Excel file (easier to work with it), and adjusted colums. They are all under current page under topic "Polish records translations", that is 59.

I am sure that copying long URLs into Excel or similar will not fly. But analysing how PO backend (i.e. operating system inside) works, I could simplify.

We have 3 main topics: Russian, Polish, Latin - those topics have internal PO numbers, and any subsequent page is just a relative reference with regards to its origin.

All SCANs are stored into well defined directory, therefore it's sufficient to record only jpeg name in Excel-like file.

That's it.

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror !
The Extension xls is not allowed - I have no choice that make PDF's from it. 7 pages, 2 for B (birth), 2 for M (marriage), 2 for D (death), and 1 page explanation.

Three sheets (B, M, D for Birth, Marriage, Death), and one Explanation.
I am not the best person in explaining things, so please be indulgent, and help to make it better.

Your comments and improvements are welcome!

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:05 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:05 am

Gilberto wrote:

2. and 3. If editing by any user may result, by accident, in a total loss of the work done, then I vote for coordinator and volunteers only.

I also think it is much better solution. Coordinator would have rights for giving full access to rights of editing the document to volunteers. Coordinator and volunteers could edit and all others could view and add comments to specific parts (words, cells) of the document.

Gilberto wrote:

4. I think we could eliminate the columns for the links. The links themselves would be included in surname/name field (I know how to do it in Excel, but not in Google spreasheet). The current columns for scan links and translations links could be used to insert witnesses and godparents names and surnames.

As far as quickly checked it is not possible to add hyperlink (link to given website or file) in Drive Spreadsheet (however, I may be wrong and not know about such possibility). Even if there would be such possibility it might be not so simple and quick process as it is just pasting link to column (you would have to add more "micro actions" - mouse clicks, to complete one entry). It is especially important when you are adding hundreds of rows with data. We can manipulate width of columns to add more of them. I added witnesses columns to Marriages link and Deaths link.

Gilberto wrote:

Another question: when this spreadsheet counts hundreds or thousands of names, how will the researcher do his/her search? Is there a "Find it" tool? Does this spreadsheet allow to organize the names or surnames in alphabetical order? Or by place or year?

You can always use combination of ctrl+f keys (find). We can also sort alphabetically the whole document by given column, for example town or surname.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Zenon, what about wikitree or webtrees?

I have never used wikitree. Some time ago we started tests on webtrees and they were very preliminary tests: http://polishorigins.com/webtrees/ . So I am not too familiar with capabilities offered by any the two tools. Do you think any of them can be used in this specific project?

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I understand the important part is import-export between PO TBD format and Geneteka or CVS (therefore Excel).

The file can be saved as Excel or CVS (as well as in many other formats).

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Whatever solution, may I suggest to start with an exercise of 3 records or so, benchmark it and see if it suits?

Sure, I added 2 births: link. If anyone wants to try it the spreadsheet is still open to everyone for editing. If you prefer to restrict editing feature to concrete persons please let me know who of you would like to have the access and the others will have only viewing and adding comments rights.

may28991 wrote:

Sense I have been working on my family tree (10Years); I can't believe the total number of these separate Polish projects going on. Can you imagine if all these effort where coordinated? The labor, and money that would be put toward doing more faster.

I fully agree Larry. We have more and more digitizing projects which is great. In Poland we have szukajwarchiwach.pl geneteka, genbaza, Poznan Project as well as many other local initiatives by regional genealogical sociates as well as private persons. Making this records available from one platform would be an enormous step forward and great facilitation for all researchers. We were trying to do this in our PO Databases Tool but currently because lack of resources (mainly time and people who would be capable and willing to conduct it) we had to suspend it.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

PolishLibrarian — Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:40 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:40 pm

From the February 2014 PGSA Notebook: "Since many of our readers (members as well as non-members) are excited by what is happening in Poland and information available via the Internet, our website chair, James Piechorowski has put together a directory of Polish websites containing transcribed or digitized records, many of which are constantly being added to. It includes sites on the national as well as regional level.

Most sites are in Polish and therefore we are recommending that you use Google Chrome, with its automatic translation bars to help you get the most out of each site. A few sites may be familiar to you. And, if you know of other websites/projects that are not included, please contact Jim at jamespiech@aol.com

This page is a work in process. Consequently, if you go to http://pgsa.org/2014_polish_parish_records/pgsa_projects.php you will see the very beginnings of the directory. That means you will have to check back for the complete listing.

(Please take note of our site's emerging new look!)" ~PL

I love the idea!!!

may28991 — Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:07 pm

Author: may28991

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:07 pm

I don't know about anybody else, but this reminds me of Cancer research. There are thousands of initiatives out there and they don't/won't communicate. Some members of Polish Origins and I have asked the Polish Genealogy Society of America (PGSA) to take the lead roll in coordinate all of these different indexing and digitizing initiatives. It has been about six months now, and they are still analyzing whether they should accept this responsibility. Sense I have been working on my family tree (10Years); I can't believe the total number of these separate Polish projects going on. Can you imagine if all these effort where coordinated? The labor, and money that would be put toward doing more faster. If you agree with me please email the PGSA and let them know your opinion. I believe that this in under their charter!

PGSAmerica@pgsa.org

Thanks,
Larry

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:44 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:44 am

Zenon wrote:

I love this idea

Zenon, what about wikitree or webtrees?

I understand the important part is import-export between PO TBD format and Geneteka or CVS (therefore Excel).

Whatever solution, may I suggest to start with an exercise of 3 records or so, benchmark it and see if it suits?

Best,
Elzbieta

"

Anonymous — Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:01 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:01 am

Zenon wrote:

Now, please share your thoughts about:

1. What do you think about this way of sharing the “Index project”. This way we will eliminate having many different versions of the file on local disk and it will be always available and up-to-date.

2. Although all changes in this file are trackable, do you think it is good idea to keep it open for editing to anyone? (All of you can “test” the file by making changes in this version).

3. If the editing access should be restricted then to who? Volunteers who will want to participate in the project and the project coordinator? Technically this is not a problem, it only requires having google account by the editor/volunteer.

4. Do you have any suggestions about modification of columns, sheets or general organization of the spreadsheet?

1. Okay, as far as I can see
2. and 3. If editing by any user may result, by accident, in a total loss of the work done, then I vote for coordinator and volunteers only.
4. I think we could eliminate the columns for the links. The links themselves would be included in surname/name field (I know how to do it in Excel, but not in Google spreasheet). The current columns for scan links and translations links could be used to insert witnesses and godparents names and surnames.

Another question: when this spreadsheet counts hundreds or thousands of names, how will the researcher do his/her search? Is there a "Find it" tool? Does this spreadsheet allow to organize the names or surnames in alphabetical order? Or by place or year?

Gilberto

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

Zenon — Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:55 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:55 am

I love this idea

Let’s start with something simple and try to develop it together into something as useful as possible while keeping it simple.

I have tried to gather your ideas and created Google Drive spreadsheet available to everyone for editing here link.

As you can see I created three sheets: Births (link), Marriages (link) and Deaths (link). As an example I also filled in Births with two first records from Russian translations thread.

Now, please share your thoughts about:

1. What do you think about this way of sharing the “Index project”. This way we will eliminate having many different versions of the file on local disk and it will be always available and up-to-date.

2. Although all changes in this file are trackable, do you think it is good idea to keep it open for editing to anyone? (All of you can “test” the file by making changes in this version).

3. If the editing access should be restricted then to who? Volunteers who will want to participate in the project and the project coordinator? Technically this is not a problem, it only requires having google account by the editor/volunteer.

4. Do you have any suggestions about modification of columns, sheets or general organization of the spreadsheet?

If among our members and visitors is anyone experienced in idexing for familysearch.org or for any other organization her or his practical hints and suggestions could prove to be very useful.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I noted too that we may need a methodology for some "big dynasties" on PO, where an organized listing is simply necessary to not get lost. I am "tagging" summaries of what I type and translate, but it's a kind of one-woman-tricks.

Elzbieta, could you share with us your methodology? Maybe we could develop it together.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Last not the least, despite large listings in Geneteka or Metryki, nothing is available for cities or villages in today South-East Poland, Przemysl or Ustrzyki are just a desert, not even listed as such.

In our PO Research Team there are two great researchers residing in Przemysl. By occasion of conducting research projects in parishes and diocese archives we collect growing number of church records. We haven’t made it available because we are afraid it might cause that the doors in these institutions wouldn’t be open for us any longer. Hopefully in the future, when the approach of some church institutions in south-eastern Poland will change, we will make it available for benefit of all.

Gilberto wrote:

Those helped by PO translators could retribute the kindness by inserting themselves the data in the spreadsheet.

This is a great idea. We could prepare short instruction how to do it.

Re: Index for translated records - shaping the idea

rsowa — Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:49 pm

Author: rsowa

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:49 pm

It's all good! It feels like there is an explosion of data happening all over!

Besides the index or spreadsheet idea, one thing that I have found EXTREMELY useful, is the names of Godparents and witnesses to events. Nearly all Polish records seem to include them, but they tend to be ignored in most indexes that are published. I would love to be able to search for those names too.

It was only because a certain surname appeared as a Godparent in several of my Chicago ancestor's baptisms, that I discovered the sibling of my great-great-grandmother! Then, after following up with those names, I discovered an entire branch of the family that settled in Chicago!

I know it is probably an awful lot of data to crunch, but it would sure make it handy.