PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:04 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:04 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Stamperanon wrote:

My question is, should I go to the name forum and see if anyone can help with trying to figure out Anastacia's last name. I know how people would misspell names. They would write phonetically . You should see the different misspelled last names on the siblings birth certificate. The only way I knew they were mine, my grandmothers name was always spelled correct. How can you mess up Danik?

I zoomed your scan http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/photo_147.jpg with Anastasia (in Polish it's Anastazja)

I decipher: Ziemal[???]ska
The first letter is Z, a handwritten form, identical to Cyrillic Z, used in France (I did not know that shape of Z is used in the US)

maybe: Ziemalciska - the problem is that it does not sound well to my Polish ear

maybe: Ziemalewska - that sounds better, but where is "w"? why dot? and it does not exist
-- but without "a" in the middle it does exist
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/ziemlewska.html

Anyway, the end is -ska, and that is feminine Polish end. Which allows me to make the following hypothesis:
(1) either Anastasia was married in Poland, then her marriage record is with declension, name ending with -ska, while her husband name is ending with -ski
(2) or she is single [if she were married in the US, her name would remain invariant with -ski]

Her name is the only one I have doubts with. Anything else is easy to decipher, the scribe was writing well, as well as he could with unfamiliar language

step-siter: Anastasia Ziemal[???]ska, Chicago, Il
brother in law: Jakob Feldmann, Hoboken, NJ, ..; Newark
brother: Max Teitelbaum, New York City, East 110 Street
brother: Edward Lang, Jersey City

Best,
Elzbieta

Thank you Elzbieta. I keep trying the different was that name could be spelled on Ellis Island or Ancestry. One day I'll get it. The "Z" shape is actually our cursive capital Z. Now that they won't be teaching cursive in some of the schools any more, wonder how they'll ever be able to read anything. sigh........

Thank you sooooo much for taking the time to try to figure it out.

Debi

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Stamperanon wrote:

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:17 am

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:17 am

Thank you Dave.

The "Casimir" you mentioned is not Kasmes. I have found a death for this child, died in 1918 after catching his clothes on fire. He was only 3 years old buried at St Aldaberts. I have not found his birth certificate yet, born some time in 1915. The oldest son Matthew, was born 25 Jan 1915 to Francis Danik. Jakub and Francis were married 15 Feb 1915. I was thinking that Baby Danik - according to Family Search - and Casimir were twins. The records from FS, only had one birth record, but on that record where it shows whether it was a single birth to multiple, it has what looks like a "t" on it.

Kasmes is actually Edward, 17 Nov 1919.

Have not checked for baptismal records yet.

Thank you again Dave.

Debi

Re: Help figuring out birth city

dnowicki — Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:26 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:26 am

Hi,

Marcely who came to the USA in 1904 is probably not the father of Jakub. His destination was in Mass. and he was going to his brother. The other reason I say this is that it is not at all clear that Jakub's father was Marcely/Marcel/Marceli. On Jakub's record at Ellis Island his father is listed as Marcin/Martin. I would not put too much faith in the marriage record. Although the priest was Polish or of Polish descent, he entered all the first names in the record in their English form---except for Jakub's father. That name he entered as Marcllus which is not a legit Latin form of Marcely. The correct Latin would be Marcellus. For some reason he was having a difficult time with that name. He didn't enter it in English like all the rest, and certainly not in Polish and not really in correct Latin. A lot of what is written down in various records---both civil and ecclesiastical---depended on what the person writing the record heard, which naturally depended upon how clearly the person speaking enunciated the names. Examples of how names can vary from record to record can be found in the birth certificates for three of the children of your grandparents. Elizabeth (born 1/20/1918 has the parents listed as Jakub Malanovsky & Frances Davik; Casimir (born 11/17/1919) is listed as Kasmes Malanovsky with parents listed as Jacob Malanovsky from Pulscka, Poland and Frantiska Danik from Gosen, Poland; Lottie (born 4/22/1921) is listed as Wloccotyslocrva (also Wladystawa) Gienowefor Malanowski and her parents are listed as Jackob Malanowski & Franciskor Danik.

Elzbieta is most probably correct in interpreting Przerac as Przeradz. There are three villages close to one another with similar names---Przeradz Wielki, Przeradz Maly and Przeradz Nowy. In the late 19th Century they all were part of the R.C. parish of Lutocin. That is all good news. However, it is not certain that Jakub was born in one of those villages but it is possible. He was probably not actually born in Zuromin which is a rather substantial town and since his occupation in Poland was a farm laborer who most likely worked on the family farm he would probably have been born in a village rather than in the town. Sometimes immigrants named the largest town near where they were born as the place of their birth just like someone who lived in Burnham, Illinois might say they were from Chicago.

Some more good news is that if he was born in one of those villages the records for the parish of Lutocin cover the period from his birth until after he left for America. The bad news is that it is not possible to look for those records on the internet and the even worse news is that the LDS films do not cover those years. But the silver lining in that dark cloud is that the records you would need are found in one of the branch archives in Poland which means that you could send an email request for your grandfather's birth record. The downside is that he may have been born in another village which belonged to another parish.

Another way to approach the matter would be to do some more searching here before requesting a search in the archives in Poland. In the 1930 & 1940 censuses your grandparents lived on the 4800 block of Loomis in the Back of the Yards neighborhood. If they lived in that same neighborhood from 1920 to 1930, perhaps looking for baptismal records of their children in one of the Polish parishes in the Back of the Yards like say St. John of God (which is closed but the records still exist either in another nearby parish or in the archives of the Archdiocese). It is possible that a baptismal record or perhaps your grandfather's obituary may confirm the direction your search should take.

Wishing you success in your quest,

Dave

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:11 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:11 pm

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

Hi, I'm not exactly sure of what you meant by this: "Marcely Malanowski immigrated in 1904, Jakub in 1911 so it can't be his father." Maybe you meant that they would have emigrated together. There could be a number of scenarios. One is that you are correct, and it's just a different Marcel from the same area. Another is that he simply wanted to make some money, and take it back to Poland to buy land or whatever. He could have come with the intention of saving money to send for the rest of his family (like many, many men that I have seen on manifests). I've seen people go back and forth, I'm sure there are many stories...I actually am surprised when I see a father emigrating with his wife and children, I haven't found it to be common.

I haven't figured out Anastasia's surname. At first I thought those were dotted i s, and then I thought maybe they are diacritical marks...

I see now that the DOC is not in Jakub's handwriting (except for his signature), so you can't take the spelling of his surname by someone else, or the village names too seriously. I don't think they were concerned about getting that right. Hopefully it would be correct on his final papers.

Never thought of his father coming out here first.

When I first realized that Kuba Malanowski was my grandfather on Ellis Island, was always looking for Jacob, I had to go back a few times to look through all the names, I ran across a name from my mothers side of family. Funny how two families were on the same boat at the same time. Wonder if they ever crossed paths on that boat.

I did order an index report from USCIS today so hopefully they will have something on my grandfather.

Thank you Cheri! I appreciate all your help.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

Stamperanon wrote:

OK, I'm sitting here thinking and it just dawned on me. On the ship's Manifest, the last column is Place of Birth. Country - Russia, City or Town - Zuromin. It doesn't even correlate with the Brarac or Sizrac on the DOC. Should I ask about the name in the last post in the name forum?

Hi, I don't understand your last question.

Have you seen Zuromin on a map? It's 11.5 km (about 7 miles) from the Przeradz Wielki that Elzbieta mentioned (Elzbieta, you are very smart!) As far a Brarac and Sirzac go, I don't know. There aren't any villages with those spellings. Near Zuromin I notice a Brudnice, and Szoniec. I have no idea if those would be the towns.

I'm not looking at the DOC right now, so I don't know if the whole thing was written by Jakub, or someone else and he just signed it. If someone was just listening to what he was saying, they might have written down anything. For example, on my grandfather's Social Security application his mother's maiden name was spelled Bortsky. I don't know if it was a boss or secretary that filled out the application, but the only thing that was his handwriting was his signature. It turns out that his mother's maiden name was Boczkaj.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:51 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:51 pm

Hi, I'm not exactly sure of what you meant by this: "Marcely Malanowski immigrated in 1904, Jakub in 1911 so it can't be his father." Maybe you meant that they would have emigrated together. There could be a number of scenarios. One is that you are correct, and it's just a different Marcel from the same area. Another is that he simply wanted to make some money, and take it back to Poland to buy land or whatever. He could have come with the intention of saving money to send for the rest of his family (like many, many men that I have seen on manifests). I've seen people go back and forth, I'm sure there are many stories...I actually am surprised when I see a father emigrating with his wife and children, I haven't found it to be common.

I haven't figured out Anastasia's surname. At first I thought those were dotted i s, and then I thought maybe they are diacritical marks...

I see now that the DOC is not in Jakub's handwriting (except for his signature), so you can't take the spelling of his surname by someone else, or the village names too seriously. I don't think they were concerned about getting that right. Hopefully it would be correct on his final papers.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:23 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:23 pm

Stamperanon wrote:

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:36 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:36 pm

OK, I'm sitting here thinking and it just dawned on me. On the ship's Manifest, the last column is Place of Birth. Country - Russia, City or Town - Zuromin. It doesn't even correlate with the Brarac or Sizrac on the DOC. Should I ask about the name in the last post in the name forum?

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

Yes, Elzbieta, it does say single on the draft registration. I was too hopeful, and not completely awake when I looked at it earlier. You are correct Stamperanon, this cannot be your Jakub. I knew he was married in 1915, but I thought it said "wife" earlier. Now I see the signatures are not alike. I see it says that he was NA - naturalized in the 1940 census, so he should have final papers...

When he immigrated, he was going to his step-sisters in Chicago. I can't tell what her last name is. Not sure if it's her married name or maiden name. I hope the file isn't too big to upload.

Marcely Malanowski immigrated in 1904, Jakub in 1911 so it can't be his father.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:36 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:36 pm

Yes, Elzbieta, it does say single on the draft registration. I was too hopeful, and not completely awake when I looked at it earlier. You are correct Stamperanon, this cannot be your Jakub. I knew he was married in 1915, but I thought it said "wife" earlier. Now I see the signatures are not alike. I see it says that he was NA - naturalized in the 1940 census, so he should have final papers...

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:49 am

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:49 am

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

Thank you Elzbieta, I appreciate your knowledge. I usually wouldn't answer after you have because you know what you are talking about, and I don't have much knowledge on Polish geography, or the language. I thought is was complicated because Jakub had these other villages written on his Declaration of Intention, and now maybe I will make it more complicated. This MIGHT be John Jacob Malanowski's WWI draft registration: http://tinyurl.com/ml69va9 I have seen different records where his month of birth is different but it seems that is always is the 25th day and the year 1892. In the line where it says married or single, it originally said NONE, and then I think it says wife, I don't think it says single, but I could be wrong. It's too bad that it doesn't have the place for next of kin like some forms do. Anyway, this registration gives his birth place as Bransk, Russia Poland. So, IF this is his registration, it's still complicated because Bransk is both a town and a Gmina which includes these villages, unfortunately I don't think any of them resemble what is written on his DOC or manifest:
http://tinyurl.com/ml69va9
Bronka · Brzeźnica · Burchaty · Chojewo · Chojewo-Kolonia · Chrościanka · Dębowo · Domanowo · Ferma · Glinnik · Holonki · Jarmarkowszczyzna · Kadłubówka · Kalnica ·
Kalnowiec · Kiersnówek · Kiersnowo · Kiewłaki · Klichy · Konotopa · Koszewo · Lubieszcze ·
Majerowizna · Markowo · Mień · Nowosady · Olędy · Olędzkie · Oleksin · Olszewek · Olszewo ·
Otapy · Pace · Patoki · Pietraszki · Płonowo · Poletyły · Popławy · Pruszanka Stara ·
Pruszanka-Baranki · Puchały Nowe · Puchały Stare · Ściony · Spieszyn · Świrydy · Szmurły ·
Widźgowo · Załuskie Koronne Załuskie Kościelne · Zanie

I'm doubt if this is him. Jakub was married to Frances Danik in 1915 and I don't recognize that address from all the documents I have found so far.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:45 am

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:45 am

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

I looked at his marriage record at St. Hedwig's, you could see it at Family Search http://tinyurl.com/kp6weud , but unfortunately it only gave Poland as a birth place. If you haven't seen it, it gives their mother's names Antoinette Grochowska and Mary Ann Kowalezyk or Kowalczyk .

I put all the village names you gave in Shtetlseeker to see if the names might have changed, but none of them came up. I went to Ellis Island to look at where any other Malanowskis might have come from. I find this to be helpful, because someone else might have the village name written correctly. I was surprised to find Marcely Malanowski (age 36 in 1904 - maybe Jakub's father?) coming from Przerac. It was spelled exactly as it was on Jakub's (Kuba) manifest, and yet a village with that spelling doesn't seem to have existed...

Did Jakub have final papers? On my grandfather's DOC all it said was Poland, but fortunately his final papers had his correct village. Everything I ever tried only said Poland, his marriage record, his Social Security application. Oh, actually, I think his WWI draft registration had his correct village, I just couldn't read it...Jakub probably should have a WWI draft registration too, but as you probably know, it doesn't show up in an index. Sometimes a village is included, sometimes only the country.

Yes, I have the marriage information.
I saw the Marcely too, not sure if it's a father or not. I've had to start from ground zero on this, everyone has passed away, so I don't know anything about this side of the family.
As for final papers? I don't know. After I typed the original post I found another one here with a link to the gov immigration to try to find the records. Thank you.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:18 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:18 am

Cheri,

Indeed, on John Malinowski registration' card the name of place is Bransk, with accent it's Brańsk.

Brańsk is circa 240 km distance from Przeradz.

I percieve "single" as correction to NONE.

Googling with "Malanowski" and "Przerac" shows the following list, did you see it? Apparently work from 2006
http://malanow.blogspot.fr/2006/04/ellis-island.html

Elzbieta

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:12 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:12 am

Thank you Elzbieta, I appreciate your knowledge. I usually wouldn't answer after you have because you know what you are talking about, and I don't have much knowledge on Polish geography, or the language. I thought is was complicated because Jakub had these other villages written on his Declaration of Intention, and now maybe I will make it more complicated. This MIGHT be John Jacob Malanowski's WWI draft registration: http://tinyurl.com/ml69va9 I have seen different records where his month of birth is different but it seems that is always is the 25th day and the year 1892. In the line where it says married or single, it originally said NONE, and then I think it says wife, I don't think it says single, but I could be wrong. It's too bad that it doesn't have the place for next of kin like some forms do. Anyway, this registration gives his birth place as Bransk, Russia Poland. So, IF this is his registration, it's still complicated because Bransk is both a town and a Gmina which includes these villages, unfortunately I don't think any of them resemble what is written on his DOC or manifest.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:33 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:33 am

Cheri,

In Polish the spelling Przerac and Przeradz are close ("ts" at the end, like in tse tse fly, without "e"), and it could be that even a Polish speaking person note it as Przerac.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:08 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:08 am

I looked at his marriage record at St. Hedwig's, you could see it at Family Search http://tinyurl.com/kp6weud , but unfortunately it only gave Poland as a birth place. If you haven't seen it, it gives their mother's names Antoinette Grochowska and Mary Ann Kowalezyk or Kowalczyk .

I put all the village names you gave in Shtetlseeker to see if the names might have changed, but none of them came up. I went to Ellis Island to look at where any other Malanowskis might have come from. I find this to be helpful, because someone else might have the village name written correctly. I was surprised to find Marcely Malanowski (age 36 in 1904 - maybe Jakub's father?) coming from Przerac. It was spelled exactly as it was on Jakub's (Kuba) manifest, and yet a village with that spelling doesn't seem to have existed...

Did Jakub have final papers? On my grandfather's DOC all it said was Poland, but fortunately his final papers had his correct village. Everything I ever tried only said Poland, his marriage record, his Social Security application. Oh, actually, I think his WWI draft registration had his correct village, I just couldn't read it...Jakub probably should have a WWI draft registration too, but as you probably know, it doesn't show up in an index. Sometimes a village is included, sometimes only the country.

Re: Help figuring out birth city

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:28 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:28 am

Stamperanon wrote:

I'm trying to figure out where my grandfather, Jakub Malanowski, was born. On his Declaration of Intent, it says "Brarac", Poland, Russia and his last residence was "Sizrac". On the ship manifest his last residence was, "Przerac". Also, on his "DOC", they have his name as Malinowski, but he signed it as Malanowski. Thank you for any help.

Name Malanowski today, 950 persons:
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/malanowski.html

while Malinowski is very popular (malina is raspberry), more than 22000 persons:
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/malinowski.html

No "Przerac" but maybe "Przeradz", in gmina Rozwozin (Przeradz Wielki, Poland on today map)
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_IX/175

Here on PO, we had someone with records from Przeradz Wielki
http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12216

Best,
Elzbieta

Help figuring out birth city

Stamperanon — Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:02 pm

Author: Stamperanon

Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:02 pm

I'm trying to figure out where my grandfather, Jakub Malanowski, was born. On his Declaration of Intent, it says "Brarac", Poland, Russia and his last residence was "Sizrac". On the ship manifest his last residence was, "Przerac". Also, on his "DOC", they have his name as Malinowski, but he signed it as Malanowski. Thank you for any help.