PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

introibo — Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:23 pm

Author: introibo

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:23 pm

I even had a situation that was more of a stretch....I had a couple of generations with the name "Szpeflicki" but when I went back another generation, the name was "Swietlicki." The name of the father, mother, and baby's name were correct, and the date of birth given what I knew was reasonable. The names are quite different, but they sound kind of the same...maybe the priest was hard of hearing?

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

rsowa — Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:26 am

Author: rsowa

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:26 am

starshadow wrote:

Was it a matter of literacy among Poles? Or the clergy's interpretation of the name?

I think the answer to your question is Yes, and Yes.

An illiterate peasant can't spell their surname, so the priest (or the person writing the record) spells it the way it sounds. The peasant doesn't know any better, so it stands as the official record of baptism and birth. Then years later, when the same person gets married, he's still illiterate, and the priest writes down the same name, but might spell it differently. I read somewhere that sometimes priests were just lazy, and didn't care all that much about getting it right.

Such a case happened with my ancestors. The marriage record shows the name spelled "Byinka", but later records show it spelled "Bejenka" or "Bejenke", and even the German equivalent "Behnke".

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

starshadow — Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:42 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:42 am

I've seen so many surnames change from the 1700's to 1800's. Like Chalupczak to Chalupczynski. Orzeszkowski to Orzechowski. Ciecwierski to Cietwierski to Ciecierski. Was it a matter of literacy among Poles? Or the clergy's interpretation of the name?

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

Henryk — Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:26 pm

Author: Henryk

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:26 pm

rsowa wrote:

I am not sure about Poland, but in Chicago EVERY baptism I found for my ancestors happened within 7-10 days of the child's birth.

Richard

Nearly all the Polish records, that I have read, are on the day of the event or the day after.

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

rsowa — Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:30 pm

Author: rsowa

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:30 pm

Leonore...you brought up a very good point. I would trust the church records...since they were recorded at the time of the event. Everything else was reported by the individual, or someone else...long after the actual birth.

Also, in later records they might report their ages differently to avoid legal issues. For example, one of my Polish immigrants got married when she was (probably) 16 years old in Chicago. But the civil marriage record lists her age as 18. That was clearly a lie, so she could legally marry without parental permission. Even more curious, is that if the birth year listed on her tombstone is correct, she had gotten married when she was only 14! So the bottom line, for me at least, is to take anything they said, or was recorded many years later, with a grain of salt. The only truly accurate dates are going to be the birth and baptismal records. I am not sure about Poland, but in Chicago EVERY baptism I found for my ancestors happened within 7-10 days of the child's birth.

Richard

names and birth dates

sheep17 — Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:11 pm

Author: sheep17

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:11 pm

I haven't noticed this being mentioned before - but something should be said also about the accuracy of dates in what we think we know, as well as the spelling of names. I have heard researchers say that they can't find an ancestor because no one of that name was born in the specific year.

But-
My grandmother insisted she was born on Aug 11 1872, and all US records show that date. Except - the record at the church in Pokrzydowo is in 1869. Her brothers and sisters who immigrated also changed their year of birth.

And grandfather's US records all say he was born in November 1867. The church record in Kowalki shows his birth date as Sept. 30 1865 - his younger brother was born in November 1867.
(Now if I could only find where his parents came from ----)

Leonore

Surname variations in the 1800s

megsiek86 — Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:28 am

Author: megsiek86

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:28 am

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for your very detailed and clear answer! I wasn't sure because the great-great grandfather's records have the exact spelling, but it seems like the womens' are a bit more variable.

Many thanks,
Megan.

Re: Surname variations in the 1800s

dnowicki — Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:20 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:20 am

Megan,

You have most likely found the records of the g.g. grandmothers. The chances are very good that they never wrote or spelled their own names given the level of literacy among those from small villages. Literacy levels varied between the areas of the three partitions. The most literate partition was the German Partition (Prov. of Posen). The Slownik Geograficzny often includes the number of literate and illiterate inhabitants in entries for the villages of the German Partition and in the more literate villages the number of literate individuals often was around sixty percent. The entries for the villages of the Russian and Austrian Partitions generally do not note the number of literates in the population of the villages. The civil transcripts of the records of the 19th Century from the Russian Partition contain very few signatures of those named in the record and usually conclude with the statement that only the priest signed because no one else was able to write. By the early 20th Century signatures of those named in the record increase in number, but are very rare in the mid 19th Century. The records from the Austrian Partition were kept in Latin and signatures were not a part of that format, but from what I've read the Austrian Partition had the lowest level of literacy of the three areas.
The sound of the two versions of Salomea's surname are close enough that there is very little doubt that they refer to the same individual. The two versions of Eva's surname are also understandably close depending on how clearly the speaker enunciated the name.

To give a percentage to whether or not you've found the correct records, I would say that you can be about 98% certain that you've found what you are looking for.

Best of success in your research.

Dave

Surname variations in the 1800s

megsiek86 — Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:47 am

Author: megsiek86

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:47 am

Hello everyone,

Just wondering how pedantic Polish people were in the 1800s about the spelling of their surnames? I have a marriage record for my great-grandparents which gives the names of their parents also (my great-great grandparents). One is listed as Salomea Kóbik and the other Eva Pieróg. That is in 1903. I'm searching for the births of Salomea and Eva on a LDS microfilm from their town (I have already located the great-great grandfathers). I have found a Salomea Kubik and an Eva Piróg being born in the 1850s, which I feel is fairly accurate as my great-grandparents were born in and 1879 and 1885. They only come from a small village and so far I have only seen three other girls named Salomea and their surnames are not even close. There are a few more Evas but again their surnames are not at all similar either. Is it possible that I have found the right people?

Thanks for any advice,
Megan.