PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:57 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:57 pm

Hi Elzbieta~ I haven't been on PO for a while so not sure if you're still active. I've been busy searching Czech records for the maternal half of my ancestors. I think I have solved this mystery you tried to help me with a few years ago.

Just Sunday I got a lead to finding Walenty Gal's Budapest marriage record in 1901 on FamilySearch. His address in Budapest on the marriage record is written Vaczi (think it should be Váci) Utca. As I understand it utca means street in Hungarian, so he lived on Vaczi Street. If the person who wrote the passenger list thought Walenty was Polish, then I believe that the Polish phonetic spelling would be Waczi Utcza which looks exactly like the written word on his passenger list - written WacziUtcza. The good news is the date of the marriage record and the birth location and dates of the bride and groom match everything I already knew!
Hope all is well with you. Again thank you for all the help you provided on PO when I was actively watching that site (2009-2015). ~PL[/quote]

Hi PolishLibrarian,

It's a pleasure to meet you again. Thank you for Hungarian update.
Váci Utca in Budapest - wow, did you see it? "perhaps the most famous street of central Budapest", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1ci_Street

Hungarian language is different from almost any other one.
The spelling is indicated here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_alphabet
- you will see in "Historic spelling" that the old "cz" became modern (Hungarian) "c" ... or modern (Hungarian) "cs", if not anything else that let me think this is a complicated letter, with possible confusion between "c" and "cz".

Congratulations for finding Waczi Utcza!
Once you know it is in Budapest things are easy, but not "on the SS Main from Bremen – the town is indexed as Wacziktora". Well, Váci Utca was the most famous street, adding Budapest of Austrian Imperium was superflous (if you live at Champs Elysées it might be superflous to say the city too ...).

Best,
Elzbieta
NB. I am back on PO, from time to time, when time permits.
==[/quote]
Yes, I did see on the map that it is the main road in Budapest! Learning more - looks like the marriage took place in Ujpest which is district 4 a little north of inner center on the east side of the Danube.
What an interesting find this record was! I'd stopped working on the Polish side. Then Patrick posted elsewhere that he'd found an indexed marriage record in Budapest & I remembered that my ancestor supposedly married there. I'm sure they were living in some kind of tenement - one of their witnesses (living at the same address) was born in Czarny Dunajec and was married to Antonina Gal (possibly a relative of my Gal). Patrick's groom was living at the same address as well & was from Czarny Dunajec. All the men were working as leather workers.
Glad to hear you are helping as time permits. Your insights were always so valuable.

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:01 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:01 pm

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Would like help identifying the town of last residence for Line 2 Walenty Gal (indexed on Ellis Island as Walenky Gal, arrived Sept. 6, 1904 on the SS Main from Bremen – the town is indexed as Wacziktora which I can’t find existing anywhere).

Everything else on the line I can read – age 29, male, married, laborer, can read & write, county of last residence is Hungary (probably belongs on the next line) corrected to Austria, language added as Polish, Last Residence ??, has ticket to final destination, br-in-law purchased ticket, has $13, not in US before, going to br-in-law Jan Babczalkiewicz at First St. 412, Streator IL [this is his wife’s brother].

Walenty was born in Odrowaz in 1876 (thanks to Shellie's records). He and his wife Agata (my great aunt) were married 12 Nov. 1901 in Budapest. Agata was from Nowy Targ. Since they were married in Hungary, it’s possible they could have been living in Hungary (which at this time also included Slovakia) before he immigrated. She came to the US to him in the spring of 1908.

Thanks for any suggestions/ideas you can offer. ~PL

Hi,

I tend to belive Wacziktora - or variant one can guess from attached jpeg - is quite approximative, and I would focus on Odrowaz.

Few kilometers West of Odrowaz you have Winiarczykówka, few to the North, part of village Podsarnie you have Waciakówka.
When you read it with non-Polish ears and scribe, then anything with W - k - a makes an answer.

There is no single Polish village with a name starting with Wacz (in an inventory of circa 100000 names). EDITED, 2600*40.

In the old geography book, W and V together, starts here
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_XII/876

Best,
Elzbieta

Hi Elzbieta~ I haven't been on PO for a while so not sure if you're still active. I've been busy searching Czech records for the maternal half of my ancestors. I think I have solved this mystery you tried to help me with a few years ago.

Just Sunday I got a lead to finding Walenty Gal's Budapest marriage record in 1901 on FamilySearch. His address in Budapest on the marriage record is written Vaczi (think it should be Váci) Utca. As I understand it utca means street in Hungarian, so he lived on Vaczi Street. If the person who wrote the passenger list thought Walenty was Polish, then I believe that the Polish phonetic spelling would be Waczi Utcza which looks exactly like the written word on his passenger list - written WacziUtcza. The good news is the date of the marriage record and the birth location and dates of the bride and groom match everything I already knew!
Hope all is well with you. Again thank you for all the help you provided on PO when I was actively watching that site (2009-2015). ~PL

Hi PolishLibrarian,

It's a pleasure to meet you again. Thank you for Hungarian update.
Váci Utca in Budapest - wow, did you see it? "perhaps the most famous street of central Budapest", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1ci_Street

Hungarian language is different from almost any other one.
The spelling is indicated here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_alphabet
- you will see in "Historic spelling" that the old "cz" became modern (Hungarian) "c" ... or modern (Hungarian) "cs", if not anything else that let me think this is a complicated letter, with possible confusion between "c" and "cz".

Congratulations for finding Waczi Utcza!
Once you know it is in Budapest things are easy, but not "on the SS Main from Bremen – the town is indexed as Wacziktora". Well, Váci Utca was the most famous street, adding Budapest of Austrian Imperium was superflous (if you live at Champs Elysées it might be superflous to say the city too ...).

Best,
Elzbieta
NB. I am back on PO, from time to time, when time permits.
==

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:04 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:04 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

PolishLibrarian wrote:

I was just looking at the mapire.staatsarchiv.at map of Galicia superimposed on a current map of Poland and see that Podsarnie was literally just over the border in Hungary which would explain why Walenty was initially listed as coming from Hungary (rather than Austria). Just helps to confirm your idea of the village he came from. ~PL

Re: Help with village name

Henryk — Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:33 pm

Author: Henryk

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:33 pm

For information, including parishes, for interwar Poland (1934):
http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=12786
Click on the word "content" in the left menu.

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:22 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:22 pm

I happen to know Kowaniec, superb souvenirs from kolonie letnie - colonie de vacances - summer camp. I was 9 or so.
Thank you!
Elzbieta

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:13 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:13 pm

Again, thank you. Now that I see the document, I also ran across this when trying to find more info. on Kowaniec, a distinct area of Nowy Targ where my great aunt's husband possibly came from. Now I've made a note of this web address as well.

Have a wonderful trip to NY. ~PL

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:31 pm

I found it. It's published on gov's site, an official inventory of all places.

It's http://ksng.gugik.gov.pl/pliki/urzedowy_wykaz_nazw_miejscowosci_2013.pdf

DzienniN Ustaw. - 2 -. Poz. 200. ZałczniN do rozporzdzenia Ministra Administracji i Cyfryzacji z dnia 13 grudnia 2012 r. (poz. 200). Nazwa miejscowości. Rodzaj.

Elzbieta

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:11 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:11 pm

Thanks Elzbieta. I think I have run across that file, or at least something similar. What I saw was a pdf document & over 6000 pages - I know it took a long time to load. I just checked my notes & I did keep the web address but it's actually a list of Polish surnames.
The first page header says:
Słownik nazwisk mieszkańców Polski V.06.2011
Copyright © 2011 Jerzy Kazojć.
Słownik zawiera 392058 nazwisk mieszkańców Polski, zawartych w dokumentach html
opublikowanych w Internecie.

~PL

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:53 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:53 pm

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Elzbieta~ Can you refer me to a map website that shows Waciakówka, part of Podsarnie? Is it a "current" location or from an earlier time period? I thought that might be the better possibility, although I guess I'll never know for sure. I do currently have a cousin from the other side of my Polish family tree living in Rokiciny Podhalanskie which is only a very short distance from Podsarnie. ~PL

PL,

One year ago, but I do not remember where, I found a document with all Polish villages, I copied it to my disk, it's 15 MB text file urzedowy_wykaz_nazw_miejscowosci_2013.pdf
It is encrypted (you can see, but you cannot copy) and anotated on the first page with vertical text:
Zalacznik do Rozporzadzenia Ministra Administracji i Cyfracji z dnia 13 grudnia 2012r (poz. 200) //
Annex to the Regulation by Minister of Administration and Encryption, 13 December 2012

Waciakowka is on the page 2281 (of 2627). I cannot copy anything, it's encrypted.

Nazwa miejscowosci: Waciakowka
Rodzaj: Czesc wsi Podsarnie // part of the village Podsarnie
Gmina: Raba Wyżna
Powiat: nowotarski
Wojewodztwo: malopolskie
TERYT: 0461617
TERYT = identificator z krajowego rejestru urzedowego podzialu terytorialnego kraju // code for each place in Poland

Indeed, Rokiciny Podhalańskie are very close.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Thanks for your thoughtful suggestions. I certainly couldn't come up with a town that started with Waczi, and since I don't know the language, I can't guess how a name might be spelled that "sounded" like this. It's too bad that the first 5 letters are so distinct and then the last part is so hard to decipher - it's sort of like the last part was written by someone else or just squeezed into the small amount of space left in that column.

Elzbieta~ Can you refer me to a map website that shows Waciakówka, part of Podsarnie? Is it a "current" location or from an earlier time period? I thought that might be the better possibility, although I guess I'll never know for sure. I do currently have a cousin from the other side of my Polish family tree living in Rokiciny Podhalanskie which is only a very short distance from Podsarnie. ~PL

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:08 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:08 am

starshadow wrote:

It looks like 2 words, Waczy, then 2nd word starting with a K, maybe Kt, but the 3rd letter doesn't appear to be an o.

Starshadow,

Without some geographic precision there is no answer.
No single Polish village has a name starting with Wacz.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with village name

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:04 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:04 am

PolishLibrarian wrote:

Re: Help with village name

starshadow — Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:18 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:18 am

It looks like 2 words, Waczy, then 2nd word starting with a K, maybe Kt, but the 3rd letter doesn't appear to be an o.

Help with village name

PolishLibrarian — Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Would like help identifying the town of last residence for Line 2 Walenty Gal (indexed on Ellis Island as Walenky Gal, arrived Sept. 6, 1904 on the SS Main from Bremen – the town is indexed as Wacziktora which I can’t find existing anywhere).

Everything else on the line I can read – age 29, male, married, laborer, can read & write, county of last residence is Hungary (probably belongs on the next line) corrected to Austria, language added as Polish, Last Residence ??, has ticket to final destination, br-in-law purchased ticket, has $13, not in US before, going to br-in-law Jan Babczalkiewicz at First St. 412, Streator IL [this is his wife’s brother].

Walenty was born in Odrowaz in 1876 (thanks to Shellie's records). He and his wife Agata (my great aunt) were married 12 Nov. 1901 in Budapest. Agata was from Nowy Targ. Since they were married in Hungary, it’s possible they could have been living in Hungary (which at this time also included Slovakia) before he immigrated. She came to the US to him in the spring of 1908.

Thanks for any suggestions/ideas you can offer. ~PL