PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

Anonymous — Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Michelle,

My apologies for leading you to the wrong path. My assumption that GROD referred to Grodno was wrong: it actuallys refers to Grodek (also spelled as Gorodak, Gorodko, Horodek, Horodk).
When searching for Datlowo in Google I came across this page of Volozyhn, where some names were mentioned, including Datlowo and Grodek.
http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/volozhin/vol_pages/vol_gb_archive2.html

Another search showed that wife and children arrived in Ellis on Feb 19, whereas the husband arrived on Mar 31, 1913. On his birth place, it is written Grodak.
Some interesting links (I could not locate Datlowo yet):
http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/volozhin/vol_pages/vol_gb_archive2.html
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/gorodokbel/horodok.html
http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/horodok/h_pages/h_ellis.html (Chaim Lutzky is nr. 154)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horodok,_Lviv_Oblast

Gilberto

Re: Russian translation

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:35 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:35 pm

mphickok wrote:

Can anyone translate the back of these family photos? Very curious if it mentions a town.
Thanks,
Michelle

The town printed on the card (right side), it's Lida.

Best,
Elzbieta

Russian translation

mphickok — Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:29 pm

Author: mphickok

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:29 pm

Can anyone translate the back of these family photos? Very curious if it mentions a town.
Thanks,
Michelle

Datlowa....Podlowa

mphickok — Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:43 am

Author: mphickok

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:43 am

Thanks Henryk, I will check this out.

Dave,
Thanks so much for the history, I really enjoy reading your posts! Hope I can narrow down the town. The ggmother from this family told a similar story as yours. She said they would go to school in the morning and on the way home the Christian woman who owned the bakery would hide them in her store until the Cossacks left the village. This would happen on a very regular basis. So good to know there were wonderfully courageous people!
Thanks much,
Michelle

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

dnowicki — Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:43 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:43 am

Michelle,

Since the records were civil transcripts they would be housed in the Polish National Archives. There are LDS films of records which were made at the various archives in Poland, but the key to locating any records is to know the name of the town or village. The confusion about Polish vs. Russian comes from the fact that before the third partition in 1795 those who lived in Polish territories were considered Polish but after 1795 people who were ethnically Polish could be listed as Russian or German or Austrian depending on which partition they lived in. On Census forms here in the States they could be listed as Polish or Russian or from Russian Poland depending on what they told the census enumerator. It would seem that the immigrants in your family felt they were Polish rather than Russian but the reality was that a person who considered himself or herself ethnically Polish would be considered Russian or German, etc. politically since Poland didn't exist as a state from 1795 until after WWI.
As to records being kept in the local temple...I believe that most Polish Jews were Orthodox so they would have attended synagogue rather than temple. Although my ancestors were Polish Roman Catholics I do have some second hand knowledge about Polish Jewish immigrants from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. My mother worked for 50 years as a secretary in Chicago for a Polish Jewish lawyer, Hyman Abrams, whose surname in Poland was Abramski. Their relationship was better described as close friends rather than employer and employee. My father was a childhood friend of Hy---they lived on the same block in Chicago. My mother first went to work for him when she graduated high school and my dad used to stop at his office to visit, met my mother, asked her out and the rest is history. But anyway, from my parents as well as from conversations with Hy, I learned a bit about his life in Poland. His father was an Orthodox rabbi who died young in Poland and then his uncles brought Hy, his mother and young siblings to Chicago in about 1912. His mother always spoke very fondly of her life in a village in Poland and of the fact that the Polish Christians and the Polish Jews in their village had a very good relationship. In fact one of her nieces was hidden by one of her Christian neighbors during the holocaust and thus was able to survive. I'm sure that Hy would have been able to tell you what records were kept in the synagogue, but unfortunately he passed away about ten years ago. But anyway I would think that the first and possibly the best place to look for records would be the civil registrations either on film or in one of the archives.

Hope you enjoy looking for a solution to your good mystery.

Dave

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

Henryk — Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:41 am

Author: Henryk

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:41 am

Maybe Dyatlovo (Rus), Zdzięcioł (Pol), Zhetl Yid), Dzyatlava (Belarus). 53°29' N 25°25' E; 106.5 kilometers E of Hrodna (Grodno). Was Russia pre-1920, then was Polish, Belarus after 1939.

Datlowa...Podlowa Grodno

mphickok — Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:09 am

Author: mphickok

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:09 am

Thanks, Dave, that is very helpful. So, do you think the local temple keeps those records or would they be considered civil records? Once I figure out where the town really is I can pursue the records. I know the family thinks they're Russian but in some censuses they say Polish. Family stories were that they were saddle makers for the czars. But could be just lore. Like many of us I just love a good mystery!
Best,
Michelle

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

dnowicki — Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:46 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:46 am

Michelle,

From 1808 until 1825 Jewish vital records in the Duchy of Warsaw (1808-1815) and then after the Congress of Vienna in 1815, in the Congress Kingdom/Russian Poland were usually recorded by the local Catholic parish as part of the vital records for the particular area. Beginning in 1826 separate records were kept for each religious group---Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant---and were usually compiled by the rabbi, priest or minister. However, while researching the ancestry of my paternal grandmother I did come across records for one year in the 1830s where the Catholic priest also included Jewish birth and death records with those of the Catholic parish. Perhaps for some reason there was no Jewish official available in that area during that one year, but that is only speculation.

Wishing you success in your research.

Dave

Datlowa , Podlowa

mphickok — Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:17 pm

Author: mphickok

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:17 pm

Thank you so much Elzbieta and Gilberto!

Yes, it is the Jewish Lusky family. Putting a search in for Podlowa and Podlowa Grodno I'm still not able to determine on a map where it is located. And is this Russia or Poland? Any suggestions on finding Jewish records? Were they kept by the Catholic priests in the area or somewhere else?
Again, thanks for all you do on this website.

Michelle

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

Anonymous — Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:56 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:56 pm

Michelle,

If you refer to the Lusky jewish family Iread Podlowo on the first page and Datlowo (clearly) on the second one. The place name is surely followed by Grod(no).
Those numbers after their names indicate they naturalized. Check http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Manifests/occ/

Gilberto

Re: Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 pm

mphickok wrote:

Wondering if anyone can help with the location of a town. A ship manifest from 1913 states the family was from Datlowa, Russia. However 1930 US Census states they are from Poland. I tried google maps but the town doesn't show up in either country. Perhaps it was different name or different spelling. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Michelle

Hi Michelle,

I do not have exactly Datlowo, nothing starting with "Datl".
But the old geography book has an entry for Datnowo
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/911
which states: look for Datnów
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/910

Datlow is (was) in powiat Kowno - Kowno's name today is Kaunas in Lithuania.

Do you have other informations to determine the region?

Best,
Elzbieta

Town of Datlowa...Russia or Poland?

mphickok — Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:02 am

Author: mphickok

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:02 am

Wondering if anyone can help with the location of a town. A ship manifest from 1913 states the family was from Datlowa, Russia. However 1930 US Census states they are from Poland. I tried google maps but the town doesn't show up in either country. Perhaps it was different name or different spelling. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Michelle