PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Where to look in the USA

Ray from MN — Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:00 pm

Author: Ray from MN

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:00 pm

Immigration/Naturalization records after the Federal Government took over I believe in 1908 have much information on where a person lived before they came to the U.S. Of course not everybody who came to the U.S. became a citizen.

If he did not become a citizen, he may have been required to register as an Alien in some states during World War I. That surely would have information on his home land and probably town.

During World War I, all men under forty or so were required to register for the Selective Service Military draft. That might have information you are seeking.

Re: Where to look in the USA

James — Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:31 pm

Author: James

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:31 pm

Hi again philygirl,
I appologize for not writing back sooner.
As I said before, I am more interested in searching for family as far back as I can go. But, not knowing about my g grandfathers death , has raised a lot of questions. What I have found is this;
He came to usa 1906; he was living in brooklyn, n.y. 1910, when g grandmother arrived , with 2 sons ( via ellisislandrecords.com ); He was a wagon washer at a bakery in bklyn. ( via 1910 us census ); 1920 us census, family lives in colts neck, n.j., he is a shoemaker; 1930 us census g grandmother is a widow; a funeral home director told me that in 1920's + 30's, the poor, catholics, were buried in a" paupers section" of the local Catholic church cemetery. A marker was placed only if the family could afford it. He had no record of my g grandfather's funeral,though he did my g grandmothers, and the church had no record either, though their records went back to 1800's, they were not complete. he also said a funeral home used to have free service for poor, but when it closed it's business, it destroyed all it's records. My father had been told that g grandfather was buried in same cemetery as g grandmother, but in a different section, and that there was not a marker. I have seen my g grandmothers grave , in the same catholic cemetery. Same story told to me by my dad's cousins, apox. year and location. No info found from naturalization, or n.y, n.j. death certs. Now that I know where + when he was born, I want to contact polish archive about possible death cert. also as I said earlier, I want to check obits. + land deeds in n.j. ( the house they lived in was owned by g grandmother when she died) It is a mystery, but not one that has consumed me as much as searching for past generations. Thanks for your info. I do appreciate it. Always looking for other avenues to search.
james

Re: Where to look in the USA

philygirl — Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:59 am

Author: philygirl

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:59 am

Hi James,

You should give Genealogy.com a try ~ it can't hurt and you never know what someone might be able to find for you! They also have State Forums you can post on ~ you can try that also for N.J. & N.Y. Where did your gr-grandparents live? Where is your gr-grandmother buried?

I know how you feel though ~ as I've hit a "Brick Wall" with my grandmothers side (Patla). The only place I've found her father is in the 1920 Census, living with my grandparents as a widow at 64 yrs. of age in Pa. No passenger Lists, no other Census records, no death records! It's like he was dropped here in 1920 and then dissappears! "Very Frustrating."

Reply to g grandfather search

James — Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:34 am

Author: James

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:34 am

Hi Millie,
Welcome to Polish Origins.
Thanks for the info., and sharing your personal experience in searching. It is a great feeling to obtain accurate information and documentation, of our family, and especially, as another member Jayme wrote, after spending time and effort digging deeper.
I've not spent much time , recently, searching for my g grandfather's death info. I researched local churches, cemeteries, funeral homes, State Death records, and talked with remaining family members. I want to look at property deeds, and newspaper obituaries , the next time I'm in NJ., and try some of the suggested avenues I've recieved here in the forum. There are several mysteries surrounding my g grandfather. I've just been more focused on going backward in my search efforts, and also looking for possible family living in Poland now, but that shouldn't keep me from looking in three directions at one time
james

Re: USA search

philygirl — Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:49 am

Author: philygirl

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:49 am

James wrote:

Zenon,
Yes, my father, and two cousins of his, said that they were told their grandfather, my g grandfather, had died in the states. I knew my g grandmother, and I know where she is buried in the states, but the possibility that my g grandfather returned to Poland has crossed my mind many times, especially since there are no official documents to show his death or burial location. I think sometimes that the story that g grandfather died young ( early 40's ) might have been a cover up for something else, but I have no proof of either scenerio. It had not crossed my mind to look for death cert. in Poland. I will consider this.

Zenon wrote:

James, did anybody from your family confirm that your great-grandparents died in the US? It wasn't uncommon that people immigrated to the USA and after several years they were coming back, even a few times.

I do not have to look for example too far; my paternal great-grandfather was in the States twice. For the first time he earned some money and came back after several years. Then after about two years stay in Poland he came back to the US with one of his son (my grandmother's brother) and again, returned to Poland where he ultimately died and was buried in his home parish. His son stayed in the US and now his descendants live in Florida.

Maybe the same story is with your ggrandparents and we have to try to look for death certificate in Poland (Pruszkow...?)...?

Hi James,

It would seem odd that they wouldn't be buried in the same place if they were together. Have you tried posting on Genealogy.com for the country of Poland? I did that for my grandfather Szuszczewicz. I did know the town he was from, Zawidz. So I posted the info I had about him and someone there from the forum, from Poland, posted back, giving me links to the town ~ map location, pictures of the village and a link to the school there in the village w/ pictures of it.
When I went to the site for the school, they had a guest book to sign in on. So I did that, explained who I was, and said that my grandfather was from that village. A few weeks later I got a posting on the Genealogy Forum from a young gentleman there in Poland who said he thought we might be related. Sent me information he had on his family and it turned out, he was the gr-grandson of one of my grandfathers brothers! I was so excited about this.
About a month ago, he sent me information on the Family Tree one of the relatives had done. I knew it was my grandfathers family, as I knew one brothers name that also came to the U.S. and lived by my grandparents. (One of his sons had gone over to Poland and had contacted the family there and met with them.) And I also knew his parents names as they were on my grandparents marriage certificate. And getting this info on the Family over there in Poland, I now know my gr-gr-parents names.

So you never know where you'll get LUCKY!

Millie

Re: Where to look in the USA

Zenon — Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:41 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:41 am

prismlizard wrote:

If an American Catholic church document looks like a strange form of Latin, it is most likely Polish that the documents in American Polish churches used in the 1880' and 1890's. Here is another trick. The spelling of the Polish parish is verbally spelled out and not what appears on maps to find the town. Example: The document says Cekcynie, but the actual town of a map is spelled Cekcyn. Always drop the final 'ie' to derive the town name.

You raised a very important issue related to "Polish genealogy" research - our forefathers', often very knotty, language. As Jonathan Scott in the introduction to his book On Wings writes: "Polish has been described as one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn". As a Pole speaking Polish since my birth (ok, almost since birth ) I am not able judge the opinion but I can try to help in explaining a few of the complexities.

You give an exmaple of Cekcyn and Cekcynie. In Polish we say:

Ta wieś nazywa się Cekcyn - The village is called Cekcyn, but
Urodził się w Cekcynie - He was born in Cekcyn

In this case the ending is added to determine association.

Unfortunately, it is not so simple that you can just remove -ie ending and you will get nominative (base) form of a noun. There are many other cases:

E.g.: There are two names of towns Cieszyn and Cieszyna. When you would like to say that somebody was born in Cieszyn or Cieszyna you should add the same ending: "Urodził się w Cieszynie". In fact, these are two completely different towns. And unforunately, it happens that in marriage certificates there is only a town of birth mentioned without the name of parish (especially if a person came from different, often distant, town).

Another examples that a little more complicate the whole issue :

Włocławek - we Włocławku (eng. in Włocławek)
Radom - w Radomiu
Frysztak - we Frysztaku
Pstrągowa - w Pstrągowej

I would find more examples but that's not the case here.

If anybody has a question regarding the nominative form of name of the Polish town or village the Forum is the place to ask about it.

Quote:

If you check out my profile and go to my website, I have numerous tips on research, translating documents, personal stories, and other ideas that you may find useful in your research.

Thank you Jayme for sharing with us your rich genealogical experience. This is the main reason the website was created for: to be a friendly space for sharing interests and deep knowledge based on our common experience.

Re: Where to look in the USA

prismlizard — Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:31 pm

Author: prismlizard

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:31 pm

Now you are getting the idea! Families immigrated, not just individuals. In each of my family surnames that I go back a generation, I always try to build the entire family unit and siblings. This will connect you to cousin lines and possibly another related researcher far ahead of you in that family. Another example could be a specific document, like I had in my line. I could not make out the Polish parish name due to poor handwriting. But on two sibling's marriage records, that same Polish parish name was very readable. I was lost without tracking down the sibling records. If you have a 'brick wall' in front of you, side step it and work your other close family relation leads. They all lead to the same final solution. If an American Catholic church document looks like a strange form of Latin, it is most likely Polish that the documents in American Polish churches used in the 1880' and 1890's. Here is another trick. The spelling of the Polish parish is verbally spelled out and not what appears on maps to find the town. Example: The document says Cekcynie, but the actual town of a map is spelled Cekcyn. Always drop the final 'ie' to derive the town name. If you check out my profile and go to my website, I have numerous tips on research, translating documents, personal stories, and other ideas that you may find useful in your research.
Jayme

Re: Where to look in the USA

NancyM — Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:28 am

Author: NancyM

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:28 am

Very good advice, Jayme. Thanks!

When you say "first cousin lines" on ship records, am I correct in thinking that you mean the section where the sponsor's name and address is given? Usually the relationship to the sponsor is also given, not always a cousin (I have seen brother - husband - uncle listed). I recall being intrigued that my grandfather was listed as Uncle to two women in 1910 ... at that point I did not know about any of his siblings.

What about obituaries?

prismlizard — Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:46 am

Author: prismlizard

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:46 am

I have been reading these posts and realized one important item overlooked in your research, obituaries. I have tracked down numerous lines of mine back to Polish parishes. My links to the past came from Catholic church records of marriage. In the 1880's and 1890's the bride and groom information always contained the parish of birth. I have also helped numerous cousin lines connect to my research when their marriage was in Poland. The connection was an obituary. Do not assume your great grandfather was the only one to immigrate. All US immigrants had to be sponsored by 1880. It is sound genealogy to always look for siblings of your ancestor. When that fails, look for first cousins. All most likely came from the same Polish parish. If any living siblings are listed in an obituary, that is your target of research. The same can be said about first cousin lines mentioned on passenger ship records. Older related family may possibly be traced to these 1880-1890 church records.
Jayme

Re: Where to look in the USA

NancyM — Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:17 pm

Author: NancyM

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:17 pm

Zenon,

You make a good point about being gentle. That is why I have trusted you to do the interviews and telephone calls with my family in Poland, not only because I don't speak Polish, but also so that I don't make a cultural mistake.

Sometimes family stories come about just because the person hearing the story was too young at the time to understand what they were hearing. For example, when my maternal grandmother came to the USA, she worked in a textile mill (as did hundreds of Polish immigrants). Years later, when she was married and had a family, she probably told her children that she had been a "mill girl," but my mother thought she said "milliner" (one who makes hats). Eventually I realized that my Mother had not heard the story correctly (and a few other stories, too).

Family mysteries and legends

Zenon — Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:39 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:39 am

I think many researchers will agree that one of the greatest challenges in uncovering your family past are so-called family mystieries and legends. People are ashamed of past behavior of their closes and either remain silent about crucial events or distort them, make them nicer, easier to live with.

Many times I have encountered violent reaction when asking about persons or events from family histories. Some questions made even tears of old pain..

That's why I think it is important is to base our research on facts, officialy recorded and be very gentle while talking with family members...

USA search

James — Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:24 pm

Author: James

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:24 pm

Zenon,
Yes, my father, and two cousins of his, said that they were told their grandfather, my g grandfather, had died in the states. I knew my g grandmother, and I know where she is buried in the states, but the possibility that my g grandfather returned to Poland has crossed my mind many times, especially since there are no official documents to show his death or burial location. I think sometimes that the story that g grandfather died young ( early 40's ) might have been a cover up for something else, but I have no proof of either scenerio. It had not crossed my mind to look for death cert. in Poland. I will consider this.

Zenon wrote:

Re: Where to look in the USA

Zenon — Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:46 pm

Author: Zenon

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:46 pm

James, did anybody from your family confirm that your great-grandparents died in the US? It wasn't uncommon that people immigrated to the USA and after several years they were coming back, even a few times.

I do not have to look for example too far; my paternal great-grandfather was in the States twice. For the first time he earned some money and came back after several years. Then after about two years stay in Poland he came back to the US with one of his son (my grandmother's brother) and again, returned to Poland where he ultimately died and was buried in his home parish. His son stayed in the US and now his descendants live in Florida.

Maybe the same story is with your ggrandparents and we have to try to look for death certificate in Poland (Pruszkow...?)...?

Where to look in the USA

NancyM — Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:15 am

Author: NancyM

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:15 am

James and I had a conversation yesterday, and he has given me permission to reproduce it here, in case anyone has other suggestions for him.

James wrote:

I've researched many sites, and am wondering if there is anything I've missed, or not thought of, that I can research here in the US.
My Great Grandparents came to USA in 1906, and 1909, so it appears there's not a lot of US information available that will tell me more about family back in Poland. They were the only family that came to the USA as far as I can determine via family I've talked with, and records I've received.
I'd like to find out more about family back in Poland, and research here has given me some of that.( ie. Ellis Island Records . com ) , but not a lot.
I've looked at U.S. census for 1930, 1920, 1910; Ellis Island Records, several areas at Ancestry. com, Social Security Death Index, State offices for Death certificates, churches, cemeteries, the Mormon Church Library ( they have many records for Poland, but most everything is written in Russian, and I doubt I'd even know what I'm looking at ), Hamburg Passenger List.
Is there anything that you know about that I've not explored? I'd appreciate anything you can offer.

NancyM wrote:

I just read your post on the forum, and it sounds like you have figured out where your family is from. Which piece of information led you to them?

One thing I can think of off the top of my head that you did not mention is whether your grandparents were naturalized. The documentation concerning the naturalization process should contain quite a bit of useful information. Also, the death certificates themselves will have more info than listed in the SSDI.

James wrote:

I did write for Naturalization records for my Great Grandfather , but no information was found. ( I forgot that I had done that ) No information for my Great Grandmother either. Also , no information was found about my Great Grandfather, when I wrote both States ( N.Y. - N.J. ) for a copy of a death certificate. They told me that sometimes, the family did not record the death with the county, and so no information is available. Also, no info about his burial, or funeral , when I contacted churches and cemeteries. Alas, the joys and disappointments of family research!