PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:05 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:05 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Yes, I took the zip, unzipped, looked up 5 jpegs, and saw only two lines with Cyrillic N.

Best,
Elzbieta

OK! I was confused/misunderstood you. I thought you were saying I didn't capture all of the 'Ns' -- you were really saying that there are only 2 n's and nowakowski was not one of them.

Well that's a bummer.

I looked up Biala records for - 1876-1879 for Frances Markuszewska's Birth in 1876.. Also apparently struck out.
(havent' uploaded yet)

And Sikorz 1871-1885 for Stephen's Birth - 1876.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gxxkqocr2k8k63a/Archive.zip?dl=0

The records were slightly weird. Within a year they'd have all of the entries and then an index like the italian records i worked with. But then there were more records for that year, and another index. Usually it was a set of 3 like this. I'm thinking perhaps it was ordered around villages in the area?

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:03 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:03 pm

oncemore wrote:

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Hi,

The Cyrillic N (looks like H) is after Cyrillic M and before Cyrillic O (at least something familiar to Latin!).

In your scan only two enties are with Cyrillic N: lines 117 (Napiorkowski Marian) and 118 (Nerib Antonina).

Best,
Elzbieta

Hi Elzbieta:

Did you see all 5 images within the zip file? I took a picture of the entire 1898 index from beginning to end. So I'm confused because it should contain all of the surnames?

thanks!

Yes, I took the zip, unzipped, looked up 5 jpegs, and saw only two lines with Cyrillic N.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:12 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:12 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Hi Elzbieta:

Did you see all 5 images within the zip file? I took a picture of the entire 1898 index from beginning to end. So I'm confused because it should contain all of the surnames?

thanks!

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:08 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:08 pm

oncemore wrote:

nfstev wrote:

Oncemore,
The Family History Library (LDS) has microfilmed the birth marriage and death records for the Roman Catholic Parishes of Siecien and Sikorz. You can rent and view the microfilm at a Family History Library near you or at your local public library.

Roman Catholic parish registers and civil transcripts of births, marriages and deaths of Siecień(Płock), Warszawa
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/58773#/58773?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Best regards,
Norbert

Hello All:

The films I ordered have come in. I'm currently at the Library going through them.
I started with the Siecień roll, as Helena was born in Murzynowo, baptised in Siecień.
She was born in 1898 - So I obtained the birth records for 1893-1900.

I'm attaching a link to a zip file.. I took screen-cap of the 'index' page for 1898. I cannot find anything on there that resembles Nowakowski to me.. However I am completely new at this. Would she have been baptized in a different year from her birth year? I had looked at 1899 too and nothing seemed to match.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kp8q04jkc6gz45t/Archive.zip?dl=0

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 pm

nfstev wrote:

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

nfstev — Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:16 pm

Author: nfstev

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:16 pm

Oncemore,
Your chances of controling your research and destiny is much better by you renting the microfilmed baptismal, marriage and death records for your ancestral village from the Family History Center.(LDS). See my previous posting.
The discovery of one record leads to wanting to see another and so on.
You would probably have a better response from the Polish civil archives than the Parishes.
Norbert

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:48 am

Author: oncemore

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:48 am

Hi All:

Checking back in..

Has anyone had success in the past with emailing polish parishes for a record request?

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:03 am

Author: oncemore

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:03 am

Tears. Tears. Tears.

The archivist was able to find the record of Szczepan's second wedding...

But alas - no information on birth town or parents.

So I'm thinking the next step is to try to track down some records in Poland.

I can order the parish/civil polish records from family history library if needed - but is there any chance an email to the parish would accomplish the same thing in less time? That has worked for some of my italian records, so just curious.

Re: Questions on topic and off topic

oncemore — Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:26 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:26 pm

dnowicki wrote:

Oncemore, Hope this clarifies rather than confuses.

Hi Dave:

It does! Thank you for the detailed information. I've gleaned bits and pieces from different articles on the web but your explanation pulls it all together.

RE: the towns.. It was more for understanding how to reference things in general, than for genealogy software. IE: "Such and such lived in Plock, which is in the Mazowieckie province of Poland."

I think your advice probably makes the most sense re: the names. Too many variables to track. It's the direction I was leaning, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't against the grain of any established convention.

Also - one of Stephen's kids was Wladyslaw - and he went by Walter. Case in point!

Thanks again!

Questions on topic and off topic

dnowicki — Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:30 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:30 pm

Oncemore,

In ascending order of size administrative locations are Wies (Village), Gmina (no good English equivalent but probably best understood as "Township" in the US), Powiat (usually referred to as "County" in English), and Wojewdztwo (usually referred to as "Province" in English). So the village you asked about would be: Murzynowo (Wies), Brudzen Duzy (Gmina), Plocki (Plock) (Powiat) [Plocki is the adjectival form of Plock so in Polish it is an adjective modifying the masculine noun Plock), Mazowieckie (Wojewdztwo) [Again Mazowieckie is an adjective modifying the neuter noun Wojewdztwo]. Is it necessary to list a location in such detail? I suppose that depends on what you want to do. Most genealogy programs like Family Tree Maker or Legacy don't get that detailed. E.G. if you begin to type in "Murzyn" in the location space the auto complete will provide it as Murzynowo, Mazowieckie, Poland. If you want to be more detailed, it is necessary to manually enter the data as you want it to appear. My personal practice is to use the auto complete version. One thing to keep in mind when you make your decision of how you want to enter the data is the size of Poland. In relation to one of our states, Poland is slightly smaller than New Mexico in area. Another thing to keep in mind is that when addressing a letter to Poland, all those details are not used. But ultimately the decision is yours.

The treatment of feminine Polish surnames in my opinion depends on what you set out to accomplish. Polish adjectival surnames (those ending in -ski and -cki along with others like "Niespodziany" are rendered in the feminine form of the adjective in Poland....-ska, cka,and "Niespodziana". In the USA these days they are most often kept in the masculine form, but not always. When I was in grammar school the nuns would always refer to girls with the proper feminine form of their surname like Nowakowska, Potocka, Niespodziana, etc. However, they were Polish nuns and most of the girls were of Polish descent. I doubt that the situation is the same in the vast majority of places today. Again, when using programs like Legacy or Family Tree Maker children will automatically be entered with the father's surname. To switch to the feminine form requires a manual override. Then there is the question of what to do with feminine Polish surnames which are grammatically nouns. As I understand the contemporary practice in Poland such surnames are usually kept in the masculine form. However, in earlier times it was common practice to add a suffix to the surname to indicate "wife of" (-owa) for a married woman and "daughter of" (-owna) for a single lady. A woman who was married to a man named Wozniak would be Wozniakowa and their daughter would be Wozniakowna In 17th and 18th Century records in the areas where some of my ancestors lived the custom was to add a syllable to a surname together with the feminine termination "a". So the daughter of a man named Gorniak was called Gornianka. Once again, how you handle the feminine surname question depends on what you want to accomplish. Personally I allow the genealogy program to automatically enter the names in the masculine form. Then in the notes I list the feminine form as an alternate. However, on a physical pedigree chart like the 12 generation chart I purchased, I enter the direct female ancestors in the form that was in vogue at the time they lived. (I purchased the chart because reports generated by genealogy programs usually only display 4 generations on a given page.) Again, I believe that the decision of how you want to handle the female surname question is up to you.

A related topic is the treatment of given names for which there is no "official" English version. A boy may have been named Wladyslaw or a girl Bronislawa and that was how they were known in their family and even in the larger Polish community but in the "English" world they may have used an unrelated English name. Wladyslaw may have called himself Walter and Bronislawa may have called herself Bertha or Bernice---names which are not actually related to their actual given name. But that is another topic for another time.

Hope this clarifies rather than confuses.

Dave

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:56 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:56 pm

PolishLibrarian wrote:

[
Oncemore~ Interesting tidbit. ... So the friendship of Helena and Martha may have led to the marriage of their widowed parents. Hope their marriage record is found and is revealing! ~PL

You are like a mind reader! I was just going to look into this; I had assumed that Martha was a member of Johanna's family. It would be interesting to hear the real story; but alas, information lost probably forever. Even if I found a living member of Johanna's children, I doubt they'd know the story. Perhaps worth investigating though.

I'm definitely crossing my fingers that the archivist pulls through and has the record - and that it has Stephen's parentals on it. This is the closest I've been to discovering their names, so I'm excited.

Side note re: Frances' death. I have Stephen's obituary. But for the life of me I have not been able to track down Franciscka's. Would love to have it! Would confirm if she had any additional siblings other than Constantine. There were 2 papers in Wheeling at the time - The Intelligencer and the Wheeling News Register.. One was a morning one an evening. I've been through the microfilms for both multiple times for the date range after her death. No luck. I think my next move is going to have to be to scan all of the headlines; I'm thinking maybe there wasn't a true 'obituary' as much as it was a small news story blurb. I've seen that a few times now for deaths in that era.

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

PolishLibrarian — Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:46 pm

dnowicki wrote:

and Franciszka/Frances baptized in Sieciu**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1898, residing in this parish for (blank) months (or) five years in the presence of the witnesses Karol/Carl/Charles Jawarski and Martha Tomczak. Dave

Oncemore~ Interesting tidbit. Notice the female witness to Helena's marriage in 1914 is Martha Tomczak. Checking the 1910 census she was 12 and was the 2nd of 6 children of John and Johanna Tomczak. The Tomczaks were living at 4409 Water St. in Wheeling and in 1910 the Nowakowski's were living at 4335 McColloch St. - about 6 blocks apart. The 1915 City Directory has Johanna, a widow, living at 4613 Wetzel with her children including Martha, and the Nowakowskis are living at 4340 McColloch. Wetzel is parallel to and one block east of McCulloch, so Johanna is now living even closer to the Nowakowskis. In Nov. 1918 Frances dies of complications from influenza and then Szczepan marries Johanna Tomczak in June 1919. So the friendship of Helena and Martha may have led to the marriage of their widowed parents. Hope their marriage record is found and is revealing! ~PL

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

nfstev — Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:34 pm

Author: nfstev

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:34 pm

Oncemore,
The Family History Library (LDS) has microfilmed the birth marriage and death records for the Roman Catholic Parishes of Siecien and Sikorz. You can rent and view the microfilm at a Family History Library near you or at your local public library.

Roman Catholic parish registers and civil transcripts of births, marriages and deaths of Siecień(Płock), Warszawa
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/58773#/58773?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Civil transcripts of Roman Catholic parish register of births, marriages and deaths of Sikórz (Płock), Warszawa, Poland
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/58708#/58708?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Roman Catholic parish registers of births, baptisms, marriages and deaths for Sikórz (Płock), Warszawa, Poland.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/663584#/663584?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Best regards,
Norbert

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:33 pm

Author: oncemore

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:33 pm

@dnowicki - haven't heard from the archivist yet. Hopefully today. If not tomorrow at the latest.

1 on-topic question - 1 off topic question.

On Topic: So for the towns in this area of mazowieckie -- what is the correct nomenclature for the full 'area'. Like City, County, State that we use in the US. Is Mazowieckie the equivalent of a county? Ancestry.com finds the locations as "Murzynowo, Mazowieckie, Poland" - but I'm assuming there is at least another level in there..

Slightly off-topic: Is there a generally accepted way for notating the feminine/masculine switches that occur in surnames, in a family tree?
IE: Should I have Frances in my tree as Markuszewski or Markuszewska. Helena as Nowakowski or Nowakowska?

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

dnowicki — Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:58 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:58 pm

oncemore & Elzbieta,

Mixed news. It is not necessary to write to the parish or the archives to research the records for Siecien. The good news---the civil transcripts are online at szukajwarchiwach.pl ...the bad news...Helena's birth was not recorded in the parish of Siecien, gmina Budzen Duzy, powiat Plock in the year 1898. I also looked in 1897 & 1899 with no success. I didn't see the surname Nowakowski in any birth record.

Elzbieta, Is it possible that we are reading the Siecien incorrectly? Perhaps it would be good to see what is recorded in the record of Szczepan's second marriage. Any other suggestions?

Dave

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:14 am

Author: oncemore

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:14 am

Can I write to them in english? If not - can someone help me compose a very simple email - requesting the baptisimal record for Helena?

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:11 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:11 am

dnowicki wrote:

Perhaps Elzbieta can determine the actual name of the parish where Helen was baptized.
Dave

Yes.

The church in Siecień is described in Polish wiki
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siecie%C5%84
the English part is shorter, but good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siecie%C5%84

The parish in Siecień
http://diecezjaplocka.pl/parafie/siecien-sw-jozefa

Parafia pw. św. Józefa, Siecień
Siecień 86
09-411 Biała
siecien@diecezjaplocka.pl

Jan Kurantowicz, proboszcz
==

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

oncemore — Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:59 am

Author: oncemore

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:59 am

Many Many thanks to everyone - great info @dnowicki.. and a special thanks to Elzbieta who is a geography and graphology/handwriting analysis wizard.

This is my first real attempt at 'digging deeper' into the Poland side of the records. The Nowakowski branch is my main maternal line. No one in my family (since I have been alive) has had any information on ancestors prior to Stephen/Frances.. And not much was even known on them at all (just their names really). Stephen and frances' son, who was my great-grandfather, died 2 years before I was born. I never had an opportunity to discuss ancestry with him. And I am the first on either side of my family to really start digging into 'amateur genealogy'. So I've had to piece things together and work out what facts I could about them from the US records.

As I attempt to "cross the Atlantic" so to speak, and discover more of this lineage -- I am glad to of found such a welcoming and helpful group of people. I know you probably receive many requests for help such as this. And I'm sure it takes patience to re-explain things to a constant stream of polish-research/history newbies.

So again - many thanks!!

I am crossing my fingers that the archivist can find Stephen's record - and I will post it as soon as possible if he does.

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

dnowicki — Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:48 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:48 am

Evidently the priest did not see actual baptismal certificates for either the bride or the groom---not unusual at all at that time---since he only entered place names and years without the day or month. The place names are not necessarily the same as the village of birth since they are the names of the place where the parish church was located and most rural parishes were made up of a number of villages. One thing the record does help you nail down is the place where Szczepan and his family resided after the arrival of Franciszka & Helena in 1909. The record states that Helen resided in the parish where she married (St. Ladislaus) for 5 years, a period of time which matches the time frame from her arrival until her marriage in 1914. Here is the translation of the record.

Left Column: Family Name(s): Jasinski Joannes = Jan/John Jasinski; Nowakowska Helena = Helena/Helen Nowakowska
Col. 2: A(nno) D(omini) Die Mensis = On the day of the month in the Year of Our Lord: 1914 Maii 11 = May 11, 1914
Col. 3: Registrum Matrimoniorum = Register of Marriages: Ego ...praemissis tribus...conjunxi Joannem Jasinski ex loco Wheeling filium Ladislai et Leocadiae baptizatum in Gozdowo***** Polonia ...anni 1894 ...et Helenam Nowakowska ... filiam Stephani et Franciscae baptizatam in Sieciu Polonia...anni 1898...(vel) annos quinque commorantem Praesentibus testibus Carole Jawarski(?) et Martha Tomczak... = I, the undersigned, invited and asked for this duty (i.e. to bless the marriage), and not constrained either by force or grave fear, after the three banns had been proclaimed beforehand, and after having received the mutual consent through words, joined in marriage Jan/John Jasinski from Wheeling, the son of Wladyslaw/Ladislaus* and Leokadia/Lillian/Leocadia** baptized in Gozdowo**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1894 whose free status was sufficiently demonstrated, (i.e. that he was free to enter into marriage) and Helen/Helena Nowakowska from (blank) (the place of her residence is specified later in the record), the daughter of Szczepan/Stefan/Stepehen*** and Franciszka/Frances baptized in Sieciu**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1898, residing in this parish for (blank) months (or) five years in the presence of the witnesses Karol/Carl/Charles Jawarski and Martha Tomczak.
I sent notification of this marriage to the Rectors of the Churches in which the above named spouses were baptized.
Signature of the pastor (of St, Ladislaus parish)

Notes: *Ladislaus is the Latin for the Polish given name Wladyslaw. There is no actual English version except Ladislaus although some men called themselves "Walter".
**Leocadia is the Latin for the Polish name Leokadia. The correct English form is the same as the Latin but some ladies preferred to use the English name Lillian.
***Szczepan and Stefan are two Polish forms of the name. Stephen is the English version
****Sieciu appears to be the Locative form of the Polish place Siecien as the priest heard it.
*****Gozdowo is the name of two parishes, one in Wielkopolskie powiat Wrzesnia (German Poland at that time) and the other in Powiat Serpc in what was the Congress Kingdom (The Russian Partition) at that time

The priest probably didn't actually do what he said by signing the record---he probably didn't send notification of the marriage to the parishes where they were baptized---not enough detailed info for him to have done that.

Perhaps Elzbieta can determine the actual name of the parish where Helen was baptized.

The record of Szczepan's second marriage may help to nail things down.

Dave

Re: Szczepan Nowakowski / Franciszak Markuszewski - Birth Locs

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:42 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:42 am

oncemore wrote:

So the archivist at the dioceses was able to locate the church marriage record for Helena and Joannes.. (Frances' daughter who immigrated with her).

It does list her baptism place here as well. Doesn't quite seem to match up with Sikorz.

Any discerning eyes?

Oncemore,

Here are groom and bride. Two villages of baptism are in the area of Plock considered yesterday.
I guess that the place of baptism is not necessarily the place of birth (villages nearby are possible).

Helena was born in Murzynowo, baptised in Siecień.
Her mother born in Biała, płocki, Poland, baptised TBD (to be determined).
On the same form Maria declared they are from Sikórz, village close to two others, place of residence.

Best,
Elzbieta

==
PO174 :
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/img_0101_101.jpg
Latin record, marriage in the US

DATE: 11 May 1914
GROOM: Jasinski Joannes - Jan Jasiński
GROOM-PARENTS: Filium - son of: Ladislai et Leocadiae – in Polish: Władysław and Leokadia
Baptizatum in – baptized in: Gozdowo // Gozdowo, Poland circa 15 km North of Płock

BRIDE: Nowakowska Helena - Helena Nowakowska
BRIDE-PARENTS: Filiam - daughter of: Stephani et Franciscae - in Polish: Stefan and Franciszka
Baptizatam in – baptized in: Siecień // Siecień, Poland, circa 2 km from Murzynowo, village in the community Brudzeń Duży, similar to Sikórz and Murzynowo, cf.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siecie%C5%84

==