PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Thank you

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:02 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:02 pm

Louisbean wrote:

Hi Elzbieta,

Thank you for your very detailed response!

I think that sounds sensible, although I don't speak or read any of these languages so difficult to be sure.

However, I do feel sure that these are the same people (I think there are too many coincidences otherwise).

The other name that has been changed is Moszek Hersz to Zevi, could this have happened in the same way? Here is Moszek Hersz's death certificate if that is helpful!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3dt88f8xubydbz/Moszek%20Jegl%20Death.jpeg?dl=0

Louis

Louis,

Here is Moszek Eglia record typed. Eglia or Jeglia is almost the same spelling in Polish, while "j" in English is totaly different, so I would stay with Eglia.
There is no Hersz in that record, so no Moszek Hersz.

I wish you to clarify the mystery.
Best,
Elzbieta

==PO189:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3dt88f8xubydbz/Moszek%20Jegl%20Death.jpeg?dl=0
It did happen in the village Bodzanów 28 May 1868, 6 pm.
Appeared in Lajzer Koch, 68 years old, and Moszek Sokolow, 43 years old, shopkeepers residing in () city Bodzanow, and declared that today current month and year, 2 pm, died Moszek Eglia () born in the village Kuchary [ujezd] county Płock, residing in the city Bodzanow, son of the late A?xx (deciphering difficult: A?usoi?) and Sura, leaving behind widowed wife Haja. After visual conviction that Moszek Eglia passed away. This act … etc.
Signatures: L. Koch, M. Sokolow, and the mayor of the city

DATE-of-ACT: 28 May 1868, 6 pm, in Bodzanów
WITNESSES: Lajzer Koch, 68 years old, and Moszek Sokolow, 43 years old, shopkeepers residing in () city Bodzanow
KTO: Moszek Eglia died 28 May 1868, 2 pm, in Bodzanów, born in the village Kuchary, county Płock, residing in the city Bodzanów,
PARENTS: son of the late A?xx (deciphering difficult: A?usoi?) and Sura,
WIDOW: leaving behind widowed wife Haja

In the above record his name is given in Nominative, so no doubt: Moszek Eglia.

But: Еглія translates into Anglia in Polish (with Google help taking spelling into account), i.e. England. Does it fit into something you know from your family?

NOTE: Moszek passed away when his son Haim was 1 year old
KTO: Moszek Eglia died 28 May 1868, 2 pm, in Bodzanów, born in the village Kuchary, county Płock, residing in the city Bodzanów,
GROOM: Haim Jeglio, a bachelor, 22 years old [on 20 April 1887], son of the late Moszek Hersz and the living Haia, he resides in the village of Bodzanow with his mother
==

Thank you

Louisbean — Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:58 am

Author: Louisbean

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:58 am

Hi Elzbieta,

Thank you for your very detailed response!

I think that sounds sensible, although I don't speak or read any of these languages so difficult to be sure.

However, I do feel sure that these are the same people (I think there are too many coincidences otherwise).

The other name that has been changed is Moszek Hersz to Zevi, could this have happened in the same way? Here is Moszek Hersz's death certificate if that is helpful!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3dt88f8xubydbz/Moszek%20Jegl%20Death.jpeg?dl=0

Louis

Re: Renewed marriage certificate

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:09 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:09 pm

Louisbean wrote:

Hi all,

I recently came across a wonderful marriage certificate for my great great grandparents. (See the second attachment).

I already had the original record which I found through an LDS microfilm (see the first attachment). The translation is as follows:

14. This happened in the town of Raciaz on the eighth/twentieth of April in the year one thousand eight hundred eighty seven at ten o’clock in the morning. Rabbi of the Raciaz Synagogue appeared, Haim Kaufman Oterman, along with Haim Jeglio, a bachelor, twenty two years old, son of the late Moszek Hersz and the living Haia, he resides in the village of Bodzanow with his mother; and Ita Ruchla Gotfrid, a maiden, twenty three years old, daughter of Kasryl and the late Hejga [Hinga?], residing with her father in the town of Raciaz; and in the presence of witnesses Moszek Aron Markus, a synagogue attendant, seventy one years old, and Lejzer Warszawski, a merchant, thirty six years old, both residing in the town of Raciaz; and they stated that yesterday before him a religious marriage was contracted between Haim Jeglio and Ita Ruchla Godfrid. This marriage was preceded by three readings of the banns in the Raciaz and Bodzanowo Jewish synagogues, on the twenty first, twenty eighth of March and fourth of April in the current year; and that oral consent to this marriage was given; that no impediments to the marriage arose. The newlyweds announced that they have made no prenuptial agrement. This record was read to the declarant and witnesses, it was signed by us, the Rabbi and witnesses, others are illiterate. Civil Registrar [signatures]

I'm guessing that the first attachment is a rewriting of the certificate in 1928 when they arrived in London, and that this would account for a few discrepancies (e.g. the actual date is a few days out).

The thing that's more odd is that the groom's father's name is totally different. In the original document it's Moszek Herkz (I assume Jeglio as his son is called Jeglio), in the London document it looks like Beri / Zevi / Zeri Levy?

Levy is the name that he carried on with afterwards.

Snyone have any ideas on why there might be a discrepancy? I'm pretty sure these are the same people as there are too many coincidences for there not to be?

Thanks!

Louis,

Interesting.

1 We have the original record from Raciaz, here just a summary as I used to do:
DATE-of-ACT: /8/20/ - 20 April 1887, 10 am, in Raciaz
WITNESS-RABBI-declaring-religious-marriage: Haim Kaufman Oterman, Rabbi of the Raciaz Synagogue
GROOM: Haim Jeglio, a bachelor, 22 years old, son of the late Moszek Hersz and the living Haia, he resides in the village of Bodzanow with his mother
BRIDE: Ita Ruchla Gotfrid, a maiden, 23 years old, daughter of Kasryl and the late Hejga [Hinga?], residing with her father in the town of Raciaz
WITNESSES: Moszek Aron Markus, a synagogue attendant, 71 years old, and Lejzer Warszawski, a merchant, 36 years old, both residing in the town of Raciaz

2 We have the wonderful record from London - I admire it for the old paper pasted on a cotton fabric (my father’s birth record is the same technique), to keep it as long as possible, in as good shape as possible, despite travels and all obstacles on the road.
I do not read Hebrew, but I can guess few words from a small addendum in English.
… The above is certificate ? marriage was solemn? at (deformation of Raciąż Płock), Poland, year of Jewish calendar 5647, date 25 April 1887, between Hyman son of Zevi Levy and Jelta Rachel daughter of Kasnel Godfried
(seal and signatures in London) The Jewish Institure, Mulberry St. E.1.
17.7.28 – 17 July 1928

Re: date “20 April 1887, 10 am, in Raciaz” vs “25 April 1887” on London’s annotation.

First possibility:

I have seen last week the whole book of records, where on few pages the scribe wrote the same date (what I call DATE-of-ACT) for many records, each of them with an event ulterior to the written date. Very strange.

Second possibility:
The groom and the bride intended to marry on 25 th, but due to holydays (Easter, Pasover, other) that date was not possible at civil office, so they recorded the marriage in advance 20 April, and wrote 25 April on Hebrew document.

Re: names in your records
You probably noted that all names differ between Poland and London.
The very first reason being that Romanization of Hebrew in English was different of Romanization in Polish. Let’s look on deformation of "Raciąż Płock" alone on London annotation!

Is Hyman an English version of Haim?
Is Jelta Rachel an English version of Ita Ruchla?
Kasryl became Kasnel, Gotfrid became Gotfried.

Re: groom
Haim Jeglio – in Cyrillic record names are declined.

Here is typed Cyrillic:
Хаимомь Еглио – declined version
Хаим Егль – Nominative case I try to find (it’s never obvious)
Google translate (I do hope they use correct Romanizations for Russian) makes it:
Хаимомь Еглио = Chaim Eglio
Хаим Егль = Haim Gel
Strange, no?

Could Jeglio be a transformation of לֵוִי (Hebrew) Levi written with Polish ears (Lewi) and recorded in Russian Cyrillic (Леви) then deciphered back from Cyrillic to Latin?

==
Best,
Elzbieta

Renewed marriage certificate

Louisbean — Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:09 am

Author: Louisbean

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:09 am

Hi all,

I recently came across a wonderful marriage certificate for my great great grandparents. (See the second attachment).

I already had the original record which I found through an LDS microfilm (see the first attachment). The translation is as follows:

14. This happened in the town of Raciaz on the eighth/twentieth of April in the year one thousand eight hundred eighty seven at ten o’clock in the morning. Rabbi of the Raciaz Synagogue appeared, Haim Kaufman Oterman, along with Haim Jeglio, a bachelor, twenty two years old, son of the late Moszek Hersz and the living Haia, he resides in the village of Bodzanow with his mother; and Ita Ruchla Gotfrid, a maiden, twenty three years old, daughter of Kasryl and the late Hejga [Hinga?], residing with her father in the town of Raciaz; and in the presence of witnesses Moszek Aron Markus, a synagogue attendant, seventy one years old, and Lejzer Warszawski, a merchant, thirty six years old, both residing in the town of Raciaz; and they stated that yesterday before him a religious marriage was contracted between Haim Jeglio and Ita Ruchla Godfrid. This marriage was preceded by three readings of the banns in the Raciaz and Bodzanowo Jewish synagogues, on the twenty first, twenty eighth of March and fourth of April in the current year; and that oral consent to this marriage was given; that no impediments to the marriage arose. The newlyweds announced that they have made no prenuptial agrement. This record was read to the declarant and witnesses, it was signed by us, the Rabbi and witnesses, others are illiterate. Civil Registrar [signatures]

I'm guessing that the first attachment is a rewriting of the certificate in 1928 when they arrived in London, and that this would account for a few discrepancies (e.g. the actual date is a few days out).

The thing that's more odd is that the groom's father's name is totally different. In the original document it's Moszek Herkz (I assume Jeglio as his son is called Jeglio), in the London document it looks like Beri / Zevi / Zeri Levy?

Levy is the name that he carried on with afterwards.

Snyone have any ideas on why there might be a discrepancy? I'm pretty sure these are the same people as there are too many coincidences for there not to be?

Thanks!