PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Why didn't they talk about it?

marr794@aol.com — Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:12 pm

Author: marr794@aol.com

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:12 pm

An email came from the Polish Origins group with the subject line “Why didn’t they talk about it.” Like many others, my Polish immigrant grandfather didn’t talk about the old country. Why didn’t Grandpa tell me stories about Poland?

Andrew never talked about his past. When I was a teen, I dragged out enough to know that his father had three wives and twenty children. Andrew was the youngest. I believe he never met some of his siblings–they would have been adults when he was born. He didn’t know all of their names. He didn’t know the names of the first two wives. Supposedly, he came to America because there wasn’t much left for the youngest of twenty children to keep him at home.

Andrew left Biskupiec when he was sixteen. Although he gambled away most of his money on the boat, he fooled the immigration inspector at Ellis Island into thinking he still had the required funds to enter America. He went (I think) to Connecticut to a brother-cousin-some sort of relative. Then he went to Chicago to another brother-cousin-though not a more distant relative, though he might have also been in Toledo or Buffalo. Later he wandered to Detroit, where he had at least a couple of sisters, though he only ever mentioned one. Genealogy sleuthing, I get the idea that up to half of his nineteen siblings left Poland for America. Andrew was close to one cousin and one other relative, but close means occasional meetings, not holidays together. As he got older, he pushed them away.

Off the boat, there was a succession of jobs in a bewildering variety of occupations, learning English, learning to be American. That was what I remember most about Grandpa. He was unrelentingly American and relentlessly ambitious, but not a money grubber.

Why didn’t Andrew talk about his youth, his family, his home? His beloved granddaughter–me–with my endless curiosity, couldn’t worm anything out of him. I thought it was because he put such effort into being American that there wasn’t room for his past. I thought he didn’t feel the silken ties that bind me to my mother and grandmothers.

Pictures show that his family in Poland lived off dirt roads and their houses were nowhere near as nice as Andrew’s in America. Still, they were not dirt poor. Back in Biskupiec, he lost a couple of cousins (one an accountant, the other a dentist) in the Katyn massacre when Stalin was getting rid of the intelligent people in Poland. An uncle was in the Austrian army during the Balkan War. A quarter of the population of Tarnow, where Andrew’s grandparents lived, were Jews killed by Hitler. A step-brother might have been active in the resistance, becoming something of a local folk hero.

When I had a boyfriend with a Germanic surname, my mother warned me never to tell Grandpa that name. Andrew hated Russians and Germans. No if, ands, buts, or exceptions.

I wish I had asked him why he didn’t talk about it. If he had answered (a big if) I think I would have found that his hatred of Poland’s enemies told the story. But I don’t KNOW.

Life of our Grandparents in Poland

Mary Pate — Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:38 am

Author: Mary Pate

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:38 am

Enjoyed reading posts of Ute and many others on this subject. I'd like o share my experience from my grandparents. From both sets, I knew what area they came from, one from the old Poznan Province (German nationals) and the other from eastern Galicia (Austrian nationals). Of help, also, was, I think, a Book of Saints, a large book. In the front of it, there were pages printed to include births, marriage, deaths. My paternal grandmother had filled info in on her origin, her children's birth and marriage dates and also deaths of her and her husband's parents and siblings. I don't have the book but have copied pages of this information which I really treasure. It has been a help in doing research in that area. On my maternal side, I wasn't lucky enough to have such a book but this grandmother lived with us. She talked about the "old country" (stary kraj). Corresponding with three sisters, she kept letters from them from which I gleaned information. She also talked some but, sad to say, as a small child, I never inquired for more stories and facts. Of interest is I remember that she couldn't wait after WWII to hear from them--that they were safe. Two were, the other she never heard from. After a lot of effort, I still cannot find her death info.
As to finding out more on my maternal side, some years ago, I was looking on the net in business yellow pages for villages, including one from where maternal grandmother came from. I saw a Zielinski listed that ran a gas station. This was my maternal grandfather's last name. The gas station owner evidently was not interested, maybe not related but he gave the letter back to the post office. A postal employee read the letter in which I named people I knew that lived in the area. That employee's father was a friend of my mother's first cousin. So, his son gave the letter to him, who, in turn, passed it on to my cousin. This cousin's daughter contacted me and from that, I have obtained several generations of my mother's line.
As to the paternal side, to my knowledge, there are none of my family line left where these grandparents came from. However, the LDS films have been a great source enabling to go back eight generations on that side as well as my maternal side. So, my point is that there is a way to delve back into the past. However, it might not be from a personal conversation from your parents or grandparents.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Ute — Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:58 pm

Author: Ute

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:58 pm

Just love this and thought I share it with you all!

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

dgawell — Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:51 am

Author: dgawell

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:51 am

Thanks to all for your replies and good suggestions. I received an email just this morning expressing great appreciation for the trees, stories and suggestions that were passed on just yesterday. I bit the bullet and called my eldest cousin. Her granddaughter had one of those big genealogy projects assigned and the work I had sent was overwhelming, in a good way. They are all excited to get together. Too bad the cousin with "the stuff" still is non communicative.

I'm in the midst of finishing up the historical novel of my Puritan 9th great grandmother and will continue to work on my Polish history and records research. I'm going to wait until AFTER my spring trip to my grandparents' village to add to their stories. I will start working on my Polish grandmother's historical novel after that big trip.

I think I now have the knack in making my writing pretty interesting. I need to spend more time in a genealogy library to look at other formats. I'v learned we have to add the history and sociology to the stories.

How nice to find others like yourselves who feel the call and burden to honor our ancestors and also our future families. Can you imagine that in the year 2200 someone might be giving thanks for that person(you and me) who took the time to collect information that would otherwise be gone forever? As I work on plugging in the ancestors on the big online family tree, I often feel there are long gone ancestors looking down from heaven as I work. I hear them say things like "Look, Sophia, that girl (I'm a "girl in their eyes) figured out our marriage date. How wonderful that someone is remembering me after all these years!"

Donna

Re: publishing

Cheri Vanden Berg — Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:48 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:48 pm

dgawell wrote:

Does anyone have a good suggestion on how to publish the family history stories. I imagine none of us are seeking to be famous authors and just want the family history and all of our hard research to be documented in a readable format. I have three very different family backgrounds: Swedish, Polish and "Back to the Pilgrims" in MA, so that means three different books. I'm still rewriting/editing my historical novel of my 9th great grandmother but want to start on some of the other work because the process of rewriting is PAINFUL and I need to start another project. The info in my head is going to explode if I don't...

I you are looking to have your research bound into one book for yourself (in your case three separate books), and have another copy placed in a genealogy library, the Allen County Library has this service for free. I read this on the website below:
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Allen_County_Public_Library
"One of the creative ways the Genealogy Center collection grows is through its Photocopy Exchange Program. Individuals submit a manuscript copy of a family or local history they have written and the Genealogy Center photocopies the document twice, placing one hardcover copy in the Center's collection and returning one hardcover copy and the original manuscript pages to the author."

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

singingfalls — Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:50 am

Author: singingfalls

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:50 am

I signed my volunteer army enlistment papers in '64 at the age of 16. My father had to sign for me. He didn't want to. I went to boot camp when I turned 17. Did 1 1/2 years on Okinawa and then brazenly volunteered for Viet Nam. By means of the internet, google earth and other digital tools, I've been able to collect pictures of machine gun bunkers I built and guard towers I pulled guard duty in. I most certainly will put the images and the stories in my genealogical records. We often only consider our ancestors and don't realize that we are part of a family continuum and we do a disservice by making it difficult for our descendents to learn of us.
One of the most priceless acquisitions I have of my Polish ancestors is a digital image of my great grandfather from Adamówka. It is a Soviet era document declaring him a wounded soldier (from a war I have yet to decipher) that allowed him to have a discount on public transportation. This is an important historical thread I have yet to track down. You can only imagine how thrilled I was to acquire this. I count it one of my greatest treasures. He looks very much like my younger brother. Because he lived, I live.
Not everyone will appreciate family history. For most of my life I didn't. Now I am consumed by it. Books like this are important. We are fortunate to be able to create them. Think of the centuries when everything was passed down my oral tradition.
I agree that it should be a literary work of art but if not, anything is better than nothing.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:56 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:56 am

rsowa wrote:

What most folks tend to overlook, are all those stories and events at the time that shaped our ancestors decisions and activities.

For example, American men becoming adults in the late 1960s dealt with the war in Vietnam, and issues around being drafted into the Army. Several generations from now, folks will probably really be interested in how those events shaped OUR decisions.

Richard,

It is the first time here I see the Vietnam war mentioned, and it touches me deeply.

Polish captain leaving for the WWII in 1939, imprisoned by Russians (as thousands of Polish POWs), leaving Russian horror and tortures with Anders Army, on this turistic famous path we all know about: Kamchatka, Siberia, Persia, Palestine, Italy. Fighting as part of British Army. London. Then no more homeland after Yalta deal with Stalin and Russian communists, traveling with Polish wife, she also from Anders Army, as stateless to the US, pages of stateless Poles from Southampton to NY. Passed at the age of 51, leaving three young children, three boys. The younger tweens drafted for the war in Vietnam, and one of them imprisoned by Viets.

Fall of Saigon in 1975.

Polish fate.

Elzbieta

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

rsowa — Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:50 pm

Author: rsowa

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:50 pm

dgawell...I feel your pain. First, you mentioned "readable format" which has several conntations. Obviously it should be something that is accessible by a wide range of readers. PL and others gave some good suggestions. My approach (so far) has been to send out flash drives with everything I have, to everyone in the family. Feedback from them in the last couple years is mixed.

And then, of course, it should be worth reading. My agony centers around that part. Genealogy can be awfully dry reading. So I have tried to add anecdotes and family stories to the facts and documents. When my mother wrote her books on her side of the family, a reader once wrote her a letter saying "I loved the way you interspersed history of the period with the goings-on of relatives." In all candor, I think THAT is what I am striving for, something that folks will actually read. What most folks tend to overlook, are all those stories and events at the time that shaped our ancestors decisions and activities. For example, American men becoming adults in the late 1960s dealt with the war in Vietnam, and issues around being drafted into the Army. Several generations from now, folks will probably really be interested in how those events shaped OUR decisions.

Then, I have been trying to split up the family into family group "chapters" that make the whole thing easier to deal with. For example, if someone actually wants to study or research someone, they can zero in pretty quickly to their specific family, and not get lost in hundreds of other "shirt tail relations".

Finally, the whole concept of re-writing is also painful and prone to error. I have done it a dozen times or more, just to come up with the final layout of my "book". But now I am at the point where when I discover a new fact, I really only need to revise one or two chapters. Nonetheless, after working on my wife's family history, and listening to her feedback, I have (again) decided to revise my own family history book format and layout to be a bit different. Bottom line, find a third party to read what you have written and give you and honest critique of it all.

Whew...why does this feel like work? Did I retire from one job, only to start another...LOL

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

PolishLibrarian — Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:33 pm

dgawell~ My Polish paternal grandparents each arrived in 1909, met and married in 1912, then both died in the mid-1920s. Ten years ago, basically knowing only their names, I started researching our two Polish family surnames. Each had 2 siblings who also came to the U.S and then married here. I searched for info on my grandparents, their siblings and the children they all produced in the U.S (all of the first generation born here have passed away). In 2009 I visited Poland and found more info about the siblings left behind, ancestors names, descendants, etc.

I realized that no one in the future would probably want to wade through my notes, documents, copies, etc. (digital & paper), so I decided to put everything together in a book format. That way the ancestral info. would be presented in one place, and any descendant on any of the family lines could start at that point and move their family tree forward to the current generations.

It took me 1 ½ years to put all this material together, transcribing all of the documentation I found, as well as including pictures of these 2 generations generously shared by new 2nd cousins I have met on this journey and any “stories” shared with me. This summer I worked with a local digital printing company (in a small town of 44,000), providing them with PDF files of the MS Word document text, MS Publisher cover, etc. They advised me on paper weights and some format details, and then printed the book (color photos on cover, B&W photos in the book itself), assembled and bound it (no graphic design services were needed). Since the book was 194 pages, I had them put a coil binding on it so that the pages lay flat when the book is open. For 50 copies, the cost was approximately $14 per copy which I felt was a very reasonable price.

That's probably more than you wanted to know, but sometimes it's easier to understand the outcome when you know what went into the decisions resulting in the outcome. Good luck. ~PL

Re: publishing

singingfalls — Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:54 am

Author: singingfalls

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:54 am

dgawell wrote:

Does anyone have a good suggestion on how to publish the family history stories.

https://www.lulu.com/

I googled self-publishing and was flooded with options. https://janefriedman.com/self-publish-your-book/

Hope that helps.

publishing

dgawell — Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:13 am

Author: dgawell

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:13 am

Does anyone have a good suggestion on how to publish the family history stories. I imagine none of us are seeking to be famous authors and just want the family history and all of our hard research to be documented in a readable format. I have three very different family backgrounds: Swedish, Polish and "Back to the Pilgrims" in MA, so that means three different books. I'm still rewriting/editing my historical novel of my 9th great grandmother but want to start on some of the other work because the process of rewriting is PAINFUL and I need to start another project. The info in my head is going to explode if I don't...

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

singingfalls — Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:20 pm

Author: singingfalls

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:20 pm

I mentioned this in an earlier post and it deserves repeating. All of the information I have gathered is digitized and stored on multiple media types. I do not use cloud storage services but I have three external hard drives, three internal hard drives and DVD and CD backups of everything. At some point I will create a printable digital book that I will convert into a hard copy of everything I gather on my family. Someone in the family some time in the future will want to know and I hope to spare them the agony and expense I have gone through. Besides, I have no children and it is a way for the name of my mother and father to be carried on by me for my siblings.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Ute — Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:44 am

Author: Ute

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:44 am

rsowa wrote:

Richard,
Thank you so much for your interesting response. In case you haven't seen it yet and are interested in reading more about the research conducted on this subject, here is the link:
http://publichistorycommons.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/The-power-of-family-history-in-adolescent-identity.pdf

So far neither one in my family is interested in family research as well, but just like you, I hope that one day one of them will continue the research I'm doing, like I continued the research my uncle started some decades ago on the German side of our family. I remember how disappointed he was when he tried to get me interested in it as well and I showed no interest in it at all. My uncle passed away in 1999 -- wish he could see our family tree now and how much I found out on our ancestors. Oh well ...

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

rsowa — Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Author: rsowa

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Ute...thanks so much for that link. I try hard to share what I learn with my siblings and my own children. In most cases they don't show much interest. But that is fine...one day one of them will pick up the family story and run with it, taking up where I left off. I just pray that I gave them a head start.

One tidbit (that makes a good story a century later), but was nonetheless painful and hard for folks at the time to talk about. On my (non-Polish) side of the family, were a series of murders and child abandonment cases that created a black hole in that generation's willingness to share any family stories. While my mother did a lot of digging, and managed to write several books on her ancestors, that period was impossible for her to investigate without opening a lot of old and painful memories for those involved. I am not saying that our ancestors reluctance to talk about their past was similar, but it shouldn't be ruled out.

In researching my wife's family history, we have discovered that some of those in Hungary (only a few miles from Galicia) were apparently "royalty". One of her "family story" says that one of her ancestors supposedly used a verbal put-down regularly to another of her ancestors. She'd say things like "you are supposed to be royalty, you ought to be doing better for yourself". It's those sort of anecdotes that make me think that a lot of the ancestry discussions didn't happen because reasons like that.

But years later, it gives us a much better appreciation for the trials and tribulations our ancestors went through, and makes for a much better (and more realistic) story to share with our posterity.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Ute — Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:41 am

Author: Ute

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:41 am

singingfalls wrote:

They never ever talked about the old country although Babush and ciocia Mania took many boxes of cloths, food and other things to Adamówka, Poland on several trips.

I thought this article fits well with our discussion on the importance of knowing our family history and intergenerational family stories:

http://shared.web.emory.edu/emory/news/releases/2010/03/children-benefit-if-they-know-about-their-relatives-study-finds.html#.VhNd2WuVXIV

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

singingfalls — Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:12 am

Author: singingfalls

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:12 am

I just posted my grandparents immigration story and it ties right in with this thread. My paternal grandfather claimed Polish ethnicity and Russian nationality. He was born in a small village in what is now Ukraine. As I began poking around regarding this I discovered that during the time of his arrival to the USA and shortly after also, Canada was placing Ukrainians in internment camps or work camps much like the USA did the Japanese during WWII. This led to a long search regarding the attitude of US citizens toward those of "Russian" nationality. I learned that the Nationalist Ukrainians were purging the Poles that lived near what is now Lviv. (Western Ukraine-Southern Poland) All of my ancestors where from a region that today would be considered a negotiable short distance by car. Eastern Europe was a royal mess. I noticed that the ships manifest would ask for race, nationality and if you were an anarchist or not. I have sorrow for the people of that region. Stalin began the starvation purges in the midst of the chaos. 1907 to 1947 where years of poverty and terror for my people. What astounds me is that my paternal grandmother at age 16 arrived with 20.00 dollars in her possession. They never ever talked about the old country although Babush and ciocia Mania took many boxes of cloths, food and other things to Adamówka, Poland on several trips.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

BobK — Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:28 pm

Author: BobK

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:28 pm

This story of the parents not telling all the facts - is repeated in so many forums that I've followed.

I had the same lack of information from my father's side. I thought my father's parents were born in Germany, but as a young teen I found my grandfather's death certificate which said "Country of Origin: Russia". My father wouldn't answer my question, "Russia!!?? how?"

Much later, as the internet expanded with information and clues - I learned that my German grandparents were Germans - from Poland.
Why did they say they were from Germany? who were they mailing clothing to after WWII? All had to wait until the internet and sleuthing tied up some of the newly found threads.

The residents of the Polish Partition that Russia held were told they were in Russia and their language had to change to Russian. Though the partition dated to 1794, Russia only quietly managed it until about the mid 1800's when those demands were made. Those born in the late 1800's believed they were living in Russia, and gave that county as their origin. Proof of that was the marriage of my great grandparents and all grandpa's siblings birth notices were in handwritten Cyrillic.

Not only was there a depression here in the U.S. but there was the Communist worries that rose and fell and reared into fear during the late 40's & for decades after. Would people willingly admit to being from Russia?!

Why they didn't tell, has many reasons.. and we'll never really know why - I doubt they knew exactly why they didn't want to say. I do know that in their day and age, people weren't as open as today.

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

dgawell — Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:57 pm

Author: dgawell

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:57 pm

What a very well stated explanation! Some of us are burdened by not only the lack of information, but a distortion of the truth. My father communicated a bitter tone when explaining that my grandmother was forced to leave Poland/Galicia because the family couldn't afford to keep her. Now, looking at the family tree's basic facts, I see that my grandmother's father died when she was seven and she had thirteen siblings! So, her mother probably gave her the gift of insuring that she find her way to America. We can now look at the situation with different eyes and see the reality of possible starvation and huge deprivation!

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Ute — Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:28 am

Author: Ute

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:28 am

Charlotte Rodziewicz wrote:

Thank you, Ute, for this forum. You hit a topic that's been a burden for me for many years. I am first generation on my father's side and the last member of his line. My father died when I was 12 yrs. old, so I never had the benefit of talking with him adult to adult. The questions I could ask!

Charlotte

Charlotte,

Thank you for your response. I understand how you feel about never having the benefit of talking with your father as an adult and asking him the questions you would have liked to ask. It leaves an empty space in our life that is always there and cannot be filled by anything else, no matter of how much genealogical data we are collecting up.

Today I regret that didn't talk about all these things with my German grandmother when I was young and still had the opportunity. I'm sure she would have loved to tell me, but I didn't ask. It was just not important to me at the time. I guess one must reach a certain age and maturity to understand what really counts in life. Maybe our immigrant ancestors would have talked as well if we had shown interest in their life stories when they were still around.
Ute

Re: Why didn't they talk about it? Some old and new thoughts ...

Ute — Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:40 am

Author: Ute

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:40 am

rsowa wrote:

Ute...I have often thought about exactly what you expressed so elegantly.

We also shouldn't forget that even if the descendants of our immigrant ancestors never learned about the "old country", there is still a piece of it in us all. The lines below are something I wrote as part of a preface to my family history that I am putting together. It sums up pretty much how I feel.

After selling everything they owned, and scraping together enough money to emigrate, they arrived in America to find a thriving new world that promised a better life. They brought with them the skills, motivation and determination to succeed and keep their families alive through hard work and heavy reliance on their extended family.

However, by the time their surviving children had reached adulthood, America had fallen into the Great Depression. Once again, the lessons they learned about survival and reliance on one another allowed them (and their children) to make it through the Depression, and later, World War II. They taught those lessons to their children, my parent's generation…that the famous newscaster Tom Brokaw once called “the greatest generation”.

We behave the way we do, and think the way we think because of the lessons we learned from our immigrant ancestors…even if we never met them.

Richard

Richard,
Thank you very much for your response and for sharing the sentences you wrote as part of the preface to your family history with us. It helps us to better understand how our our ancestors' lives were like and the reasons why they acted the way they did. And I love your last sentence: "We behave the way we do, and think the way we think because of the lessons we learned from our immigrant ancestors…even if we never met them." Your words are expressing so well what I have been feeling for so long.. Thank you.