PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Czeinego...

Anonymous — Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:22 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:22 pm

Sunny, Cheri and Iwona

One line below Maryanna, there is a Marcin Zenda, also from Czarnego. That surname is not common, so I took a quick look at Geneteka. I found few Zenda in KP (Wielki Komórsk), LB (Bilgoraj), MZ (Blédow), Podlaskie (Lipsk), SK (Zborowek) and WM (Morliny). Not any Marcin.

Then I did a search in www.stevemorse.org for people coming from Czernego. There is about a dozen. At least one of them (Chodorowski) mentions his nearest relative in the old country as "Czernego, Suwalki). I think an idea would be to track those people who came from Czarnego, by checking the friends /relatives they were going to meet in the USA. Maybe the ship manifest of those friends/relatives could elucidade the location of this Czernego.

Gilberto

Re: Czeinego...

Iwona Lubczyńska — Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:12 pm

Author: Iwona Lubczyńska

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:12 pm

In Poland, you will not find a town with the end of the name, because it is- variety noun - grammatical category.
Perhaps Francis said the official full view, it was therefore concluded grammatical category, rather than a geographical name. This is just my guess.
You can search all a village in Poland at this link:
http://miasta.mapa.panoramafirm.pl/?l=C

There is one problem that I notice in the forum. Everyone thinks that their name comes from the name of the village, with whose ancestors come from. It's not true. It is quite often agree in the case of noble families, but not to the peasant. The names come from executed occupations, nicknames, character traits, advantages, disadvantages, characteristics, etc. You can not say that all the people named Kowal or Kowalski or Kowalewski come from Kowalewo.

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:05 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:05 am

Iwona,
I understand what you wrote, and it's very interesting. Now I see that what the indexer thought was the letter i, it does not have a dot above it. I also see in the names Franziska, Marianna, and Martin, the letter r is not well formed, and could maybe be mistaken for an i as well. The village name as written then looks like Czernego, and not Czarnego. I do understand how village names change depending how it is used in a sentence, but usually on a ship manifest the village names are written as they would be on a map (except of course there are mistakes). Of course Sunny needs to get more documentation, and it will be interesting to find out if you are correct. I do think you must be correct about the name Kowalewska, though in the U.S. people used variations of what the name had been in Poland. I am very curious about what village they were from, and hopefully that will be written correctly on some document from the U.S.
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Iwona Lubczyńska — Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:23 am

Author: Iwona Lubczyńska

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:23 am

Francis was descended from the village of Czarne (in English means Black). Where are you from? from Czarnego. I watched the manifesto. When Marianna was the daughter of Frances, it could not be called Kowalonka (a variety maiden name Kowal -English->Smith) It certainly is not Kowalska. I think it's Kowalewska.
The Polish names do not have written the letter "v" (only Latin and German translations replace "w" to "v").
It's hard to read the name, because the German officer who saved them, did not speak Polish and enrolled as heard. Hence the glitches. Polish for the Germans was very difficult. You need to check how your ancestors wrote down the name in America (as well as it pronounced). Then you will find the correct form.
Francis, Marianna is one of the most popular names in Poland nineteenth century. Surnames derived from Kowal were also very common. If you do not you will find more details, it will be difficult to determine the actual ancestors.
Village called Czarne are few in Poland. See you on the goggles map few of them:
Czarne, Szczecinek
Czarne, Wisła

(It is not village Czarna becouse the question where you from, is responsible: from Czarnej; Czarna- Czarnej but Czarne- Czarnego)

Very often to America he drove the husband and his wife affix after a few years (five, seven or even 12!). It happened that trip caused the breakup. Poland did not recognize marriages American, so often occurred to bigamy. America is also not checked whether the groom has left the country of his wife.

sorry for my English;]

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:44 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:44 pm

Sunny,
I just remembered what Dave recently wrote on this forum
http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=3558&highlight=draft
This is the part that may interest you:
"There could have been a number of reasons why Mateusz left Galicia and resided in the Prov. of Posen/Poznan aka the German Partition. He may have been looking for work or he may have done a preemptive move to avoid conscription into the Austrian army since he was near draft age or any number of other reasons. There are two villages named Jablonowo in what at the time was the Prov. of Posen. The idea that he had to reside in German Poland for a time in order to get on a ship is not very likely. Since both Galicia and the Congress Kingdom (Russian Poland) were landlocked the difficult part of the journey for young men of draft age was crossing the border into the Prov. of Posen. To cross at a legal border crossing a man would need to produce proof of military service. Men who had not served in the military sometimes crossed using another man's documents or else hired a "guide" who would get him across the border at a point distant from the legal crossing areas. Once in German Poland the only thing needed was a steamship ticket. If that had not been purchased back in the village where he lived, a man would usually purchase the ticket from one of the local immigrant ship agents in the Prov. of Posen so that everything would be ready when he arrived at the port of embarkation. The two most frequently used ports for Poles were Hamburg and Bremen. The steamship lines were interested in getting passengers on board who would not be rejected once they arrived in the USA and the companies did what they could to make it as easy as possible for their customers---after all, the immigrant trade was the bread and butter of the steamship lines and the civil authorities in the port cities were not looking to keep people from embarking since the immigrant trade was a major economic engine for the port areas."

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:49 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:49 am

Sunny,
I actually don't know specifically what "papers" of identification were needed. I have read about people using the papers of someone else. I guess what was included in the papers would depend on the time frame. There is a discussion at Polish Origins you might be interested in: http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=1775&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=russian+draft+conscription&start=0
There are other discussions you can find online. I would think that if he did desert, it would be really dangerous for him to go back...
Cheri
P.S. I just looked up the history of passports and found this - "Passports were not generally required for international travel until the first world war. It was in the early 20th century that passports as we would recognize them today began to be used. The first modern British passport, the product of the British Nationality and Status Aliens Act 1914, consisted of a single page, folded into eight and held together with a cardboard cover. It was valid for two years and, as well as a photograph and signature, featured a personal description, including details such as "shape of face", "complexion" and "features". Following an agreement among the League of Nations to standardize passports, the famous "old blue" was issued in 1920." But what would be needed to travel around, or leave Russian Poland, I don't know. Also, it seems like some identification was needed for the ship. I searched for Ellis Island and Identification papers and found this: "Nor were inspections the brief interactions we associate with passport control in today’s airports. Generally they lasted twenty minutes or more, as inspectors sought to identify those at high risk of becoming wards of the state. But perhaps most significantly, Ellis Island officers never wrote down immigrants’ names. Instead, they worked from ships’ manifests, which were themselves compiled by local officials at the point of embarkation. Even overseas, passenger lists were likewise not generated simply by asking immigrants for their names. Rather, they were drawn from passports, exit visas, and other identification papers. The reason for this was simple: Errors cost the shipping company money. A mistake on a manifest, such as a name that was not corroborated by other documentation (whether legal or fraudulent), would result in the forced deportation of the person in question back to his point of departure—at the shipping company’s expense."

Re: Czeinego...

Sunhoney — Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:49 pm

Author: Sunhoney

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:49 pm

I think I should try sending for my g-grandmother's second marriage record and see if they can find it. I have yet to have a positive experience with the vital records for New York.
I have also wondered if "Frank" went back and forth between NY and Poland. It has even crossed my mind what if Martin Zenda was actually Frank. Oral history says Frank was in military service to the Czar. What if he deserted...What travel documents did a person have leaving Poland or America?

Like you stated Gilbert, there are so many Franz Kowalski and close variants to say "ah-ha, found it".

Sunny

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:49 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:49 pm

Sunny,
I just want to point this out in case Gilberto is coming across any marriage record that could be of Franciszek and Franciszka. They might have been married 14 years in 1900 like it says in the census. In the 1900 census it says that Marianna was born in May 1887, so I wonder if that could be correct. It did not have the correct birth years for Frank and Frances. It said 1870 for both of them, and the birth month was unknown. I have read that back then people did not celebrate their birthdays like we do, and many people have come across multiple birth dates on records. Recently, on another list, there were comments about relatives being younger on ship manifests because the rates were cheaper.

When I wrote to the church where my grandparents married, they told me that they did not have the villages where they were born (I have that information now). Also, I've seen enough Chicago marriage records at Family Search to know that sometimes the village was written in the record book, and sometimes it wasn't. So when I read posts where people are told to get the marriage record, I would think that it was not always that simple...Recently someone insisted that the church collects that information, though it might not be written in the actual record. It could be in the marriage banns book. You might want to ask about that. Also, I don't know what information was collected in NY on the application for a marriage license, but that might be worth a try for Frances' second marriage.

I don't know if this could be the case for your great grandfather, but some men did go back to Poland (to a partition) in between the years when they first came, and the rest of the family emigrated. Seven or eight years seems like it would have been an eternity before they would see each other again...
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Sunhoney — Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:19 pm

Author: Sunhoney

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:19 pm

I do not know where or when Marianna was married. I do know that she was married twice. There is no record at the family church (St. Patrick's RCC) in East Islip, New York. I know from her headstone that she was born 20 February 1889 and this matches the 1900 census. She was married by 1910 as she was not in her father's house and was with her 1st husband in New Jersey along with one of her brothers.

As for my ggmother, She remarried 2 years after the death of my ggrandfather. The records at St. Patrick's gave the first name of her parents (but not a place of birth in Poland). Her name in that register was listed as Frances Kovalska and she is the daughter of Francis & Catherine.

~Sunny

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:53 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:53 am

Sunny, Did Marianna marry? If so, do you know what church it might have been? Her town of baptism would have been written in the marriage records in either the marriage entry book, or marriage banns. The church should have that information.
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:20 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:20 am

Sunny, you probably have all this information, but I was just trying to narrow down the year that "Frantisek" would have become a citizen. I now have seen "Frank" in every census year in the states. In 1900 indexed at Ancestry as Korelski, 1910 Kanelmalski, 1915 Kovaleski, 1920 Kowelski, and his wife "Frances" in 1925 Kovaleski. I noticed that in 1910 there was no immigration or naturalization written at all for either of them. In 1900 it said that Frank was an alien. In the 1915 NY state census it said that he was a citizen. In 1920 it said that he was naturalized in 1895. So there are some inconsistencies. One thing that stayed the same was that in 1900, 1915, and 1920 he said he immigrated in 1890. In 1900 it said that Frank and Francis were married for 14 years. In 1910 it said they were married 20 years. In 1910 there was a 2 after M for married for Frank indicating he had been married before. There was an M 1 for Francis. In 1925 it said that Francis was a citizen, and there was a note that said "husband's papers". That would be right, because if he became a citizen before woman were granted the right to vote, she would have become a citizen as well.
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:58 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:58 am

Gilberto,
Franciszka's husband's name was Franciszek. She named him on the ship manifest, but it was spelled Franzisok. Sunny said his name on his gravestone was Frantisek.
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Anonymous — Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:32 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:32 am

Sunhoney wrote:

My ggfather's headstone reads as
Frantisek Kovalewski
zom. 30 MAJA 1923
U VERK 60 LAT

The 1910 census it's Kovelski
I forgot the 1920 index spelling
There are 2 good candidates for naturalization in Suffolk, NY-
Both are Kowaleski...

This morning I checked Geneteka for a birth between 1890-1891 for Marianna Kowalewska and Kowalewski. I found some, but none had a mother named Franciszka. These names and surnames are pretty much common. Do you know Franciszka's husband's name? We could look for her marriage before 1891 (back to 1885, for instance).

Gilberto

Re: Czeinego...

Sunhoney — Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:24 am

Author: Sunhoney

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:24 am

My ggfather's headstone reads as
Frantisek Kovalewski
zom. 30 MAJA 1923
U VERK 60 LAT

The 1910 census it's Kovelski
I forgot the 1920 index spelling
There are 2 good candidates for naturalization in Suffolk, NY-
Both are Kowaleski...

Re: Czeinego...

Anonymous — Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:37 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:37 am

Cheri Vanden Berg wrote:

Yes, Gilberto, Kowalsuska, as indexed at Ellis Island, didn't show up on the Polish surname map. Ancestry has the surname indexed as Kowalowka, which doesn't show up on the map either. I then found that Kowalowska was a rare surname, and Kowalewska is a very popular surname. Sunny, those surnames were never used for your great grandparents? I thought maybe not, because the Soundex code for them would be K420, and you said the surnames you had were K142. I'm attaching her name from the manifest. Earlier I thought maybe it was supposed to be Kowalska, but as written it looks like there are a couple more letters between the l and the s??
Cheri

Cheri,

The way it was written it seems Kowalewska, or Kowalenska (didn't check if this spelling exists).
Yesterday, I checked SGKP for Czarnego and Czernego. No luck.

Gilberto

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:35 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:35 pm

Yes, Gilberto, Kowalsuska, as indexed at Ellis Island, didn't show up on the Polish surname map. Ancestry has the surname indexed as Kowalowka, which doesn't show up on the map either. I then found that Kowalowska was a rare surname, and Kowalewska is a very popular surname. Sunny, those surnames were never used for your great grandparents? I thought maybe not, because the Soundex code for them would be K420, and you said the surnames you had were K142. I'm attaching her name from the manifest. Earlier I thought maybe it was supposed to be Kowalska, but as written it looks like there are a couple more letters between the l and the s??
Cheri

Re: Czeinego...

Sunhoney — Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:57 pm

Author: Sunhoney

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:57 pm

Well the last name has been spelled a few ways in my research. All spellings came out to a soundex of K142. Franciszek (my great-grandfather) has a few different spellings per each census record I find. Franzista (my great-grandmother) has the spelling from Ellis Island.

I know from oral family history and census records the "V" was once a "W". When I get back to my files I can find the spelling that is on his gravestone in Long Island.

Try spelling it Kowalski...

Thanks for everyone's assistance
~Sunny

Re: Czeinego...

Anonymous — Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:16 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:16 pm

Hi, Sunny and Cheri

I believe the surname is misspelled either. I could not find in herby.com.pl or janusz stankiewicz etymologie nazwisko. Also, not any record in Geneteka.

Gilberto

Re: Czeinego...

Sunhoney — Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Author: Sunhoney

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Thanks for the reply Cheri.

According to the 1900 census, Franciszek stated he had been in America for 10 years. I have not found a record that would be him for certain. I do have a headstone, but the church records did not give a place of birth and the state archive has not found a death certificate. Oddly enough I even have a bill for the funeral services that is written in Polish. I have a few hits for naturalization records for Suffolk County on Long Island. All it stated that the person was renouncing citizenship to the Czar of Russia. I have even tried to trace Martin Zenda who appears to be traveling from the same village and could have been helping my great-grandmother and young daughter.

As a last effort I tried to get the death certificate for Marianna the daughter. Yet since I am not a direct ancestor and she had no children that is known, I can not get the certificate for another 20 years last time I did the math.

I have always wondered how bad is bad to leave your wife an infant daughter and it take over 5 years before Franciszek could bring them to New York. to join him.

~Sunny

Re: Czeinego...

Cheri Vanden Berg — Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:21 pm

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:21 pm

Hi,
I looked at the manifest, and I guess I see the same thing that whoever indexed it saw - Czeinego. I searched for Czeinego and Czernego, and I'm sure that you know I didn't find a village with that name. Looks like Czernego is a surname though. I went to the Steve Morse gold form and looked at anyone who had a surname started with Kowals who was from a village starting with Cze. I saw some from Czernigow, which also doesn't appear to be a village, but it does look that way on the manifest. I did find a village named Czerniejów which is on the maps. It's about 15 km south of Lublin. To know with more certainty I'd ask, what else do you know? She was going to her husband Franciszek, have you found a ship manifest or naturalization records for him, death records, etc.?
Cheri
P.S. I just looked to see if there would be anyone from Czerniejow on the Stephen Morse site, and there was only one: Watiakiewicz, Franz Czerniejow, Lublin, Russia 29 1882-1883 1912
Looking at his manifest, I could see how when the e is close to the j an indexer could think it was a g, so I do believe that Czernigow should be Czerniejów. Also Czerniejów was in the Russian partition...