PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Sirdan maybe this is more evidence of the connection

ossnhughie — Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:57 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:57 pm

Sirdan,

Dave over in the Latin forum translated the baptism records of two siblings of Bartlomiej not mentioned in the 1816/18 parish census, a Petronela and Bogumil Dowiat, what adds to my belief that Michal Dowiat was indeed Jozef's father is if you look in the Latin Forum at the translation of Petronela's baptism her godparents were Agata Dowiatowa (no surprise proabaly an aunt of Jozef) but also the godfather was a Sir Marcin Waszkiewicz, which seems to indicate, to me at least that He might have been a relative of Jozef (The Jozef mentioned in the 1866 birth record's mother is named Konstancja Waszkiewiczowna) Do you agree that this is another link that seems to prove the thesis that.

Sir Michal Dowiat m. Lady Konstancja Waszkiewicz

who had son Sir Jozef Mateusz Dowiat
who married Lady Ewa Okmianska sometime in the late 1780's or 90's

who had the son Sir Bartlomiej Dowiat who married
Lady Aniela Romanowska.

It seems like a pretty big coincidence.

Also Sirdan do you know anybody or where I could find a researcher to go to the archives in Kielce to look at the Klimontowicz documents, hopefully somebody who's bilingual and local. (paying travel fees is something I'd like to avoid).

Hugh

Re: Sirdan I am thinking

sirdan — Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:42 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:42 am

Hugh,

I looked again on Bartłomiej Dowiatt birth record. I believe his mother is written as Montwiłówna. Look closer on letter "ł". It differs from "t". Like Gierdwiły village - five entries below.

This is small change but notable. Looks like there were living family members of Montwiłł/Montwiło in Szaty parish. Here are pictures from Szaty cementery http://www.genealogia.okiem.pl/genealogia.php?n=Montwid and http://www.genealogia.okiem.pl/foto2/thumbnails.php?album=695 there will be grave of Klimontowski and Montwiłło. Looks like Michał Dowiatt and Klimontowicz married into same Montwiłło family. What you think? I think there gonna be more findings in Katowice archive in Klimontowicz papers.

Montwiłło roots might come from Traszkuny Village, Uciana district. On geneteka some Motwiło are in Wędziagoła though. Uszpole/Użpol is close to Uciana too. I didnt found any more information whether Daujotis is Jewish name, this name may be just adopted by few polonized Jews, since originally Jews did not possesed surnames. Dowiatis can be then just another form of Dowiat.

I would not definitely give up at this stage. Lets look for Klimontowicz archives, and do wide search to the north side and north-east from Wilkomierz, for Dowiat and Monwiło surnames. Two other places worth naming are Szawle and Troupie. We are "walking" around same place, just widening the cirlce

Sirdan I am thinking

ossnhughie — Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:46 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:46 pm

The probability of that fasmily being mine is probably not too realistic. Given my Dowiats status as nobles and the religious situation at the time they probably weren't of Jewish descent, but rather Lithuanian Catholics or Greek Catholics.

I shall keep looking however.

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

ossnhughie — Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:24 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:24 am

The more I think about it this likely can't be my Michal by this time he was clearly a resident of Wigie in Szaty parish. I guess with records the way they were back in that period it is impossible to verify that Michal was in fact my Jozef Dowiat's father.

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:34 pm

Author: sirdan

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:34 pm

This two looks like Dowiatis or Dowiatio. Names are Michał and Kazimierz respectively to the list.

There is Surname Dowiatis on old records in geneteka in Litwa part. If i take in right way, polonized name Dowiat got written in Lithuanian style with -is ending.
Or, this may direct come from Daujotis surname. According to this site http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/uzpaliai/UtenaEnc.htm Daujotis is Jewish name. That rise question for me, why first two on the list have polish names, and third one is described as Jew Abraham (Żyd Abraham).

Now, there is another source after master thesis about Dekanat Wilkomierski, there is Dekanat Kupiszki in pdf http://pbc.biaman.pl/Content/13821/t.%209%20dekanat%20Kupiszki%201784%20S.%20Skibicki.pdf I learned that Starostwo is a property belonged to the King. Starosta was a leaser, kind of administrator of King's properties, he was obligued to maintain a castle, pay other lower grade administrators, he probably was taking taxes from people using these properties, and payed part of money probably to the King.
There was several starostwo's, One was Starostwo Uszpolskie. So, area of dekanat was not same of admnistrative district. Take it into the consideration, because dekanat Wiłkomirski and Kupiszki were neighbours, and administrative districts like powiat, starostwo, etc, were overlapping between the two dekanat's.

Uszpol/Uszpole is Użpol or Uspaliai in Lithuanian. According to the document above, there was 35 villages in Starostwo Uszpolskie. Michał and Kazimierz were written under Town Uszpole however. There was parish in Uszpole.

Elżbieta Daujotis on geni https://www.geni.com/people/El%C5%BEbieta/6000000041542328967 Hard to say right now what relations are between Daujotu and Daujotis names.

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

ossnhughie — Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:29 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:29 am

Sirdan,
On the link I sent you on the 2nd group of images on pg 17 is listed what looks like it might be Michal Dowiat. What do you think??

Re: Sirdan could you look at this online resource

sirdan — Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:50 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:50 am

Above document is same as on http://kresy.genealodzy.pl/ "biblioteka kresowa" Document title is Inwentarz starostw powiatu Wiłkomirskiego 1765. There are two same copies, one is brighter, better to view. This is list of sort of income or tax to government. Numbers on the right of people name or village name means money (thalers for example). There is small chance to find names you look for, yet if you have time, you can fastscan it.

Sirdan could you look at this online resource

ossnhughie — Sun May 29, 2016 3:53 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:53 pm

Sirdan,

I hope you are having a nice weekend. I found this Lithuanian Genealogy source online that has scans/photos of a list from 1765 from Wilkomierz/Ukmerge county or whatever the division is. This covers the area of Szaty parish. I was wondering if you could tell me 1. What is the list exactly 2. How is it organized 3. Do you think that the Dowjats, Okmianski's, Montwid's, Waszkiewicz' or Niemir's could be on these list(s).

http://www.genealogija.lt/va/sar/ukmerges_inv1765_2.html

Thanks in advance for anyhelp you can provide.

Hugh

Thank you sirdan

ossnhughie — Thu May 26, 2016 10:34 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:34 pm

Sirdan,

Thank you for your information, in this night alone I found two children of Jozef and Ewa, a daughter Petronela born in 1798 in Szaty parish and a Son Bogumil born in 1800 in Szaty parish in Juszkance (Ewa's place of birth).

Sincerely,

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Thu May 26, 2016 10:56 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:56 am

Hey, here is another portion of scans to look at: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/1673937?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Available online, handwritten copies of metrical books 1797-1801. We are slowly reaching another place change, Józef and Ewa at this time could move to Bojaryszki and then Zejmy parish. After scans abowe check out Zejmy metrical books on familysearch https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/1685405?availability=Family%20History%20Library and e-paveldas or wherever hey are.

Thank you again Sirdan.

ossnhughie — Sun May 22, 2016 11:38 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:38 am

I will look for Waszkiewicz's in the same records in particular Konstancja. Also noticed on the map to the nowthwest of Szyrwinty (just a little outside of town, is a place called Okmiance, so another possibility for the Okmianski place of origin. Having ancestry that is of the szlachta really makes things complicated with all the moving around they did.

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Sun May 22, 2016 5:19 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 5:19 am

Hey Hugh, we cannot be 100% sure without confirmation in records. Thast's as always. But for me it also looks like good direction and best possibility we have. There are many matches.

So, there is no records of Michał birth in Szaty parish? Montwid/Monwid also look like surname from different place. I have an idea, that Michał and Rozalia came to Wigie and bought or and build their house there. Wonder if there will be some sign of it in documents in Kielce. Maybe Michał bought something from Klimontowicz? On the other hand, the could be nothing..

When Michał settled, his wife gave birth but looks like she got an infection and died. So, man with a house need someone. Best suited is a woman from neibourhood. Waszkiewicz is a surname that was mentioned in thesis in Pogiry Parish (next to Szaty parish), but also in Pożerce just in Szaty parish, to the north from Szaty town. One of the Pan in Pożerce was Onufry Waszkiewicz. I bet you can find his daughter Konstancja, just look again into same records..

Okmiański must come from Okmiany place. In Middle Ages, there were no surnames, but when somebody (knight) got the land from king, became noble, he was creating surname from the name of the residence. It was popular also in Mazowian, Podlasie.

Sirdan here's the total records found in Szaty book

ossnhughie — Sat May 21, 2016 4:55 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 4:55 pm

Sirdan,

Thanks to your help and links Ilooked through a number of years of Latin records (births only) and found a whole bunch records that are most likely ancestors of mine. Dave translated them all for me, and given the previous information from the 1818 nobility census from Zejmy parish I believe these are the same people.

1.Bartlomiej Jacek Dowjat b. 19 Aug 1764 in Wigie. Son of Sir Michal Dowjat and Lady Rozalia Montwidowna

*2.Jozef Mateusz Dowjat b. 16 Sep 1766 in Wigie. Son of Sir Michal Dowjat and Lady Konstancja Waszkiewicz

3.Dominik Wincenty Dowjat b. 16 Jan 1769 in Wigie. Son of (Same as above)

4.Felicjanna Dowjat b. 24 Feb 1770 in Wigie. Daughter of (Same as above)

5.Anna Dowjat b. 5 July 1772 in Wigie. Daughter of (Same as above)

*6.Andrzej Ignacy Dowjat b. 21 Nov 1773 in Wigie. Son of (Same as above)* listed 1818 census aged 38.

7.Elzbieta Helena Dowjat b. 14 Apr 1776 in Wigie. Daughter of (Same as above)

8.Helena Julianna Dowjat b. 23 Feb 1779 in Wigie. Daughter of (Same as above)

9.Felicjan Ignacy Dowjat b. 31 May 1781 in Wigie. Son of (Same as above)

He also translated found sibilings of Ewa Okmianska (Jozef's wife). I am frustrated though that confirmation through marriage or death records will not be possible, due to them being unavailable.

Also of note on the map you gave me between Wigie in the north and Swokienie to the south lies the village Okmiany. Could this have something to do with my ancestral surname Okmianski??

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

ossnhughie — Fri May 13, 2016 11:02 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:02 am

Thanks for the info. Perhaps I'll look into a researcher for that purpose in the future.

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Fri May 13, 2016 10:15 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:15 am

Documents are loose sheets and books, handwrited. There is no microfilm number mentioned. Im afraid it can be viewable only in person, not online. You may ask them for scans, but it gona hurt your pocket. You may ask somebody to go to Archives and take photos. Taking photos in archives is allowed.

Sirdan forgive me for my confusion

ossnhughie — Wed May 11, 2016 11:17 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:17 pm

I looked up the Kielce archives and they mention they have the records, however I cannot seem to find how to access them online. Do I actually need to visit or have someone visit the archives in Kielce? Or am I missing the method for getting the records online as in epavledas website?? I am so confused, yet I hope to be able to view these records.

Thanks again,

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Wed May 11, 2016 6:27 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:27 am

Yes, they are accesible, and probably available in the Archive. I updated previous post with maps.

Sirdan a question about The link you posted

ossnhughie — Wed May 11, 2016 6:20 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:20 am

Sirdan,

I clicked the link you provided the other day for the Klimontowicz documents. It showed a page about information about the types of records from the collection, but not the records themselves. Are the Klimontowicz records actually available for viewing online like the epaveldas records? Thanks for the clarification.

Hugh

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Wed May 11, 2016 2:07 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:07 am

Looks like i pointed wrong Wigie Village in the map.

Willage Wigie from the map above belong to Bobity parish. But according to Słownik Geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego innych krajów Ościennych there must be second Wigie. But thats not village, it was called okolica i dwór (surroundings and manor) and this must be placed somewhere between Szaty and Żejmy. Maybe at the road. Either this place disappeared or was included to other vilage.

Thanks to Dave's maps, now i have confirmation that partitions did not influence administration of the area of interest, apart from only Kowno city was included to Prussian Partition.

I hope it clear any doubts.

==========================
Edit: Below is the map with Wigi place, just near Juszkańce
http://igrek.amzp.pl/result.php?cmd=id&god=P28_S38&cat=WIG100

also there is Wigie on Janów/Jonava sheet
http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=REYMANN200

and here http://igrek.amzp.pl/details.php?id=1754507 and http://igrek.amzp.pl/result.php?cmd=id&god=S56&cat=ME300

Re: help in looking at Polish documents

sirdan — Tue May 10, 2016 5:00 pm

Author: sirdan

Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 5:00 pm

There are several tiny places called like Zejmy. But if You ask for Zejmy Parish, then it was settled between 1500-1550, after Szaty parish. It is good point about influence of partitions on government and church admnistration. I have not enough data for now to answer that question. Im sure we can answer this. I would start finding an detailed map of partition borders first. I looked recently on online sketch based on googlemaps. When have time, will look again.