PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Sophia — Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:14 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:14 am

Hi John,
I can offer some insight as to why there are different family names on the grave marker. It is most likely that there were family members whose grave markers were "lost" and the current family wants to commemorate them, so they add their names to a current stone. What do I mean by "lost?" In some cases, the grave marker did not stand the test of time. Metal crosses were often used, and sometimes the plaque with the names on it became detached from its cross. In another case I know of, the cemetery was destroyed in WWII and a new cemetery was created in the same place, so I saw exactly what you are seeing here, names of family members who died prior to or during WWII added to a recent stone. I am suggesting in your case that when the family put up this marker for Jan and Anna Kojtek, they felt strongly enough to make the statement that Rozalia Orzol was buried in that cemetery, though not necessarily in that grave, and that her name should not be forgotten. Stefania Gut might, perhaps, be the Kojtek's daughter. This Rozalia Orzol may not be your great-grandmother, as you point out that that was her birth name and not her married name, but she may have been a sister-in-law or some such thing whose name was coincidentally Rozalia, and perhaps if you can contact this family thru the church, they may be connected to your family.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Anonymous — Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:21 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:21 pm

John Boncek wrote:

Hi, again,

I’d like to follow up on this based on some information from a trip my wife Vicky and I took last year. We visited Brodowe Łąki, along with Warsaw and Ostrołęka, and it was absolutely wonderful. We looked at every grave marker in the small cemetery at Brodowe Łąki. The attachment is a photo snippet of one that’s very interesting. The name Kojtek I remember from old family discussions so they may be relatives of unknown degree, though I think it was spelled Koitek here. The name Rozalia Orzoł is especially intriguing because it’s so close to the birth name of my great grandmother Rozalia Orzel, which we already knew from multiple other sources. We don’t know dates of birth or death for her but as Elzbieta translated above she was 30 in September/October, 1892. If that’s exactly correct, she would have been either 77 or 78 in May, 1940, depending on when her birthday fell. The age given on the stone is 77 if I’m reading it correctly. She never moved away from Brodowe Łąki so far as we know. Is it possible this is her? It’s hard to believe she would have been buried under her birth name and the fact that this seems to be the marker of a different family makes it seem even less likely. It seems confusing to have so many different family names on one marker (or am I misinterpreting it?). A possibly minor point -- what are the letters S.P. at the top if anyone knows (it’s a Catholic cemetery and marker)?

John

John,

about SP: http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/poland/16017/

Gilberto

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

John Boncek — Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:02 pm

Author: John Boncek

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:02 pm

Hi, again,

I’d like to follow up on this based on some information from a trip my wife Vicky and I took last year. We visited Brodowe Łąki, along with Warsaw and Ostrołęka, and it was absolutely wonderful. We looked at every grave marker in the small cemetery at Brodowe Łąki. The attachment is a photo snippet of one that’s very interesting. The name Kojtek I remember from old family discussions so they may be relatives of unknown degree, though I think it was spelled Koitek here. The name Rozalia Orzoł is especially intriguing because it’s so close to the birth name of my great grandmother Rozalia Orzel, which we already knew from multiple other sources. We don’t know dates of birth or death for her but as Elzbieta translated above she was 30 in September/October, 1892. If that’s exactly correct, she would have been either 77 or 78 in May, 1940, depending on when her birthday fell. The age given on the stone is 77 if I’m reading it correctly. She never moved away from Brodowe Łąki so far as we know. Is it possible this is her? It’s hard to believe she would have been buried under her birth name and the fact that this seems to be the marker of a different family makes it seem even less likely. It seems confusing to have so many different family names on one marker (or am I misinterpreting it?). A possibly minor point -- what are the letters S.P. at the top if anyone knows (it’s a Catholic cemetery and marker)?

John

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

John Boncek — Sat May 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Author: John Boncek

Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Thank you all so much! This all fits with what we know. My grandparents did indeed go by the first names Walter and Josephine in this country, and we have records that give their first names as Władysław and Jozefa (under various spellings for both). That is their grave. Seeing the actual ship is an unexpected treat! The possible explanation of the town name seems like a stretch but it may be the best we can do at this remove. Again, thank you all!

John

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

dnowicki — Sat May 21, 2016 9:32 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:32 am

John,

On a slightly different topic....In case you would be interested in info about the ship Wladyslaw named on his naturalization papers attached is a picture of the ship and some facts about it. It regularly sailed for the Holland America line from Rotterdam to N.Y. during the early 20th Century. I found the image and information while researching my own family. A paternal grand uncle sailed on the ship in 1907.

Wishing you success with your research,

Dave

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Sophia — Fri May 20, 2016 1:08 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:08 pm

Hi Elzbieta,

I think I like your second cup of tea. When someone says ".... w Ostrołęce..." then a person fluent in Polish knows that these are two words, but my poor ears hear only one word which begins with the sound of V. So maybe Veverce was an approximation of the sound - - correct at the beginning and correct at the end, just missing one syllable.

Best,
Sophia

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri May 20, 2016 8:56 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 8:56 am

Hi Sophia, it is good to see you!

You are right with the "odd E", there is no meaning. I have seen people handwriting "odd E" even now, in 21st century, a meeting here or there, using it as regular "e".

I wonder what could be the word you noted as "Veverce". It is such strange for Polish speaker, that I guess it is a result of ears-to-scribe process. Veverce have twice letter V, which does not exist in Polish language [V is used to correctly note some foreign words].

Two villages from the record above, Kopaczyska and Brodowe Łąki, are part of gmina Baranowo (community Baranowo), powiat Ostrołęka (county Ostrołęka), Masovian Voivodeship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmina_Baranowo

I have two hypothesis, both are very much like reading from tea's leafs:
1. either it is a generic name such as "province" [province, Poland, Russia], match on the last syllabe with Veverce,
2. or it could be "Ostrołęka" [grandfather was saying "urodzilem sie w Ostrołęce" - I was born in - the name of the biggest town nearby], match on the last syllabe with Veverce.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Sophia — Fri May 20, 2016 7:17 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 7:17 am

Hi John, Gilberto and Elzbieta,

Just a comment on the "odd E" which, as Elzbieta has said, is very much like Greek epsilon. This way of writing an E is not at all unusual, in my experience, and many writers used it along with the more usual script E in the same document. If you look at how the person filling in this naturalization form wrote "September" you will see both types of E in one word! So I would not attach any meaning to it, it is simply this writer's creativity with writing E. Most of the time, when I am viewing these naturalization documents, as well as WWI Draft Registrations, I look at the handwriting to decide whether it looks like that of someone who learned to write in the U.S. or not. It is often the case that someone helped an immigrant fill in a form. I agree with John that Wladyslaw himself did not fill this one in. He might, however, have written down his wife's name as Jósia to show to whoever helped him, and it was interpreted as Jolsie, the form-filler thinking that the accent over the O was a whoops-I-meant-to-put-an-L-there kind of addition. Going back to John's question of the name of the town in Russian Poland, I am seeing it as "Veverce" (two epsilon-style Es and one script E). I do not know where that might have been.
Best,
Sophia

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Fri May 20, 2016 4:53 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 4:53 am

Gilberto, John,

I translated the record in Cyrillic from Brodowe Łąki, to have correct names of parents , as this birth record is a little different.
Additional difficulty is the name Orzeł in nominative singular, recovered from plural family of Orłów.

Brodowe Łąki: Łąki = meadows, Brodowe is an adjective from bród = a shallow place in a river or stream allowing one to walk or drive across.

==PO310:
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=6&zs=0112d&sy=1892&kt=1&plik=31-34.jpg#zoom=2&x=540&y=76
Kopaczyska 31
It happened in Brodowe Łąki, /20 September/2 October/ 1892, at 2 pm. Appeared in Julianna Bonczek, 67 years old, midwife, from Kopaczyska, in the presence of Aleksander Bonczek, 38 years old, and Jan Gonski, 40 years old, both farmers from Kopaczyska, and presented us a male child, declaring he is born in Kopaczyska, on /18/30/ September this year, at 11 pm, находясь в отсутствие = while in the absence of Walenty Bonczek and his legitimate wife Rozalia born Orzeł, 30 years old. On the holy baptism held today the child was given the name Władysław, and his godparents were Aleksander Bonczek and Anna Bonczek. This act … Signature by administrator of Civil Registry, priest Klemens Greffkowski?

NOTE: [from next record: the relevant USC=Civil Vital Records Registry is in Baranowo]

DATE-of-ACT: /20 September/2 October/ - 2 October 1892, at 2 pm, in Brodowe Łąki
DECLARANT: Julianna Bonczek [could be Bączek], 67 years old, midwife, from Kopaczyska
WITNESSES: Aleksander Bonczek, 38 years old, and Jan Gonski, 40 years old, both farmers from Kopaczyska
FATHER: находясь в отсутствие = while in the absence of Walenty Bonczek
MOTHER: and his legitimate wife Rozalia born Orzeł, 30 years old
KTO: Władysław Bonczek born /18/30/ - 30 September 1892, at 11 pm, in Kopaczyska
GODPARENTS: Aleksander Bonczek and Anna Bonczek
NOTE: It is almost sure that the correct Polish orthography is Bączek, but it is lost in Cyrillic writing, with the closest possible Bonczek. Etymology: of bączek is a little bąk, gad-fly, with plenty of derived meanings, including little child

Today distribution in Poland:
288 Bonczek
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/bonczek.html
4156 Bączek
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/b%25C4%2585czek.html

MORE NOTES:
Searching for Baczek and Orzeł
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?rid=B&from_date=&to_date=&search_lastname=Baczek&search_lastname2=Orze%B3&rpp1=350&bdm=S&w=07mz&op=gt&lang=pol

We get 3 more children of Walenty Bączek and Rozalia Orzeł, all with scans:
1 1887 20 Antonina Bączek Walenty Rozalia Orzeł Brodowe Łąki
[Miejsce przechowywania ksiąg: Archiwum Państwowe w Warszawie oddział w Pułtusku Adres: ul. Zaułek 22 06-100 Pułtusk]
[Indeks dodał anulka24]
5 1890 25 Marianna Bączek Walenty Rozalia Orzeł Brodowe Łąki
[Miejsce przechowywania ksiąg: Archiwum Państwowe w Warszawie oddział w Pułtusku Adres: ul. Zaułek 22 06-100 Pułtusk]
[Indeks dodał anulka24]
7 1888 25 Stanisław Bączek Walenty Rozalia Orzeł Brodowe Łąki
[Miejsce przechowywania ksiąg: Archiwum Państwowe w Warszawie oddział w Pułtusku Adres: ul. Zaułek 22 06-100 Pułtusk]
[Indeks dodał anulka24]

==
COMMENTS on Declaration of Intention record:

As you see from the record found by Gilberto, the administrative script at that time was Cyrillic, Russian - people were Polish, under Russian partition. That explains Poland, Russia.

It explains even more: how can you learn to write correct Polish in Latin script when your place have been occupied by Russia, and you are obliged to speak Russian and forbidden Polish (and it lasted for 3 generations)? Any approximative Polish writing is a good writing in that situation. Furthermore the Russian were using their calendar, which added even more confusion. The correct dates are Gregorian, the ones we use today everywhere, usually the second position on records from Poland.

Your grandfather first name is Władysław.
It is very old Polish name, with etymology coming from slavic languages (Polish or Czech), words "włodzi" and "slaw", the one who conquered fame.
But this name is absolutely impossible to transliterate to English neither to French, as it would became something starting with VW... (as I said in another older topic: like Volkswagen logo). The most common change for Poles was to replace it with Walter (at least you keep the first original letter).

His signature is with Władysław, with orthography looking for me like Bonziek, could be Bonczek [was-he trying to fit it into English ears?]
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/signature_snip_843.jpg

I do not see Josie as his wife's given name, but something like Jolsie, maybe he wanted to write Józia, which is one of variants for Józefa.
As a matter of fact: all feminine Polish given names end with "a" in nominative.

Concerning the strange little "e" - it looks very much like epsilon, Greek one ε, or Latin one ɛ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_epsilon
It is spelled "e" like in Edward.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Anonymous — Thu May 19, 2016 9:46 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:46 pm

Is it him?
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=48043402
by the way:
ą sounds 'on'; therefore Bączek = Bonczek

Magroski

Re: Help with Naturalization Document

Anonymous — Thu May 19, 2016 8:53 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:53 pm

John Boncek wrote:

We're looking for some help reading a few handwritten entries in a USA naturalization document for my grandfather, called a Declaration of Intention, attached in two snippets due to size. The specific entries we’re interested in are:

1. His last name, twice, in different handwriting – probably only the signature at the bottom was by him. It went thru several changes but this is one we haven’t seen before.
2. The name he gave for my grandmother, something like Josie but it doesn’t look quite like it.
3. The town he lists, once as in Poland, Russia, and once as in just Russia.

The town and my grandmother’s name have a letter that looks something like a small “e” but it’s different than the simple loop that is usual for small “e”.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Sincerely,
John Boncek

John,

I think this is his birth record: (based on your info about Brodow Lakie)
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=6&zs=0112d&sy=1892&kt=1&plik=31-34.jpg#zoom=2&x=0&y=0
born in Kopaczyska
199 osób
woj. mazowieckie
pow. ostrołęcki
gmina Baranowo
kod: 06-320
on september 20 / october 2, 1892, a son to Julian? and Rozalia.

Magroski

Help with Naturalization Document

John Boncek — Thu May 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Author: John Boncek

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:18 pm

We're looking for some help reading a few handwritten entries in a USA naturalization document for my grandfather, called a Declaration of Intention, attached in two snippets due to size. The specific entries we’re interested in are:

1. His last name, twice, in different handwriting – probably only the signature at the bottom was by him. It went thru several changes but this is one we haven’t seen before.
2. The name he gave for my grandmother, something like Josie but it doesn’t look quite like it.
3. The town he lists, once as in Poland, Russia, and once as in just Russia.

The town and my grandmother’s name have a letter that looks something like a small “e” but it’s different than the simple loop that is usual for small “e”.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Sincerely,
John Boncek