PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Setzman/Zecman Derived from Sotzmann

JGwizdowski — Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:35 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:35 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi Joe,
Well, this is an interesting turn, isn't it? I have no experience in researching family records in Denmark. However, I do have a thought. Do you know if your Hermann Sotzmann was a skilled tradesman? He might have left Denmark, originally, as part of his "journeyman" years. You can read about this online, the tradition in Germanic countries of completing your apprenticeship and then spending 3 years travelling, to work with masters in other cities, in order to perfect your craft on the way toward gaining the title of master craftsman in your field. If this is the case, then it may make more sense for you to look for vital records for him in larger urban areas of Denmark, rather than rural villages. You may also take a look at what Family Search says about trade guild records - - scroll very far down this page:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Denmark_Occupations
That may offer you a different approach to finding him, as opposed to vital records.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia

As always, great insights, Sophia! I will see what I can dig up!!
Best,
Joe

Re: Setzman/Zecman Derived from Sotzmann

Sophia — Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:40 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:40 am

JGwizdowski wrote:

Hi all! I'm revisiting this thread in hopes of connecting some more dots.

I've traced my maternal Zecman line back to 3rd g.grandfather Herman Sotzmann. His 1826 marriage record to Frederyka Keber states he was born in Dania (Denmark). Herman was born about 1798 and his parents are listed as Jan and Maria Fentzel.

I've looked at the Danish state archives and it seems one can't just type in a name, the way you can on geneszukacz. I have no clues as to where in Denmark Herman came from. So I'm wondering if this is something that can feasibly be researched, or would I be chasing my tail.

Am wondering if anyone has had any experience in tracing ancestors from Poland back to Denmark?

I've attached the marriage record, just in case I've missed something.

Thank you for any observations!
Joe

Setzman/Zecman Derived from Sotzmann

JGwizdowski — Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:27 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:27 pm

Hi all! I'm revisiting this thread in hopes of connecting some more dots.

I've traced my maternal Zecman line back to 3rd g.grandfather Herman Sotzmann. His 1826 marriage record to Frederyka Keber states he was born in Dania (Denmark). Herman was born about 1798 and his parents are listed as Jan and Maria Fentzel.

I've looked at the Danish state archives and it seems one can't just type in a name, the way you can on geneszukacz. I have no clues as to where in Denmark Herman came from. So I'm wondering if this is something that can feasibly be researched, or would I be chasing my tail.

Am wondering if anyone has had any experience in tracing ancestors from Poland back to Denmark?

I've attached the marriage record, just in case I've missed something.

Thank you for any observations!
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:09 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:09 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

mcdonald0517 wrote:

I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia

Hi,

Here is the record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==

==

Elzbieta...THANK YOU for anticipating my translation request! You beat me to it and this new record is an exciting find!

The given name, George Gotthard, certainly sounds German, and Gotthard really sounds like a German surname. I have to wonder if the Gothard isn't the father's surname.

The search is on, and thank you so much for your help!
Best,
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:59 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:59 pm

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Hi Joe,

I found something, but it may or may not be your ancestor. It is the same year - 1847 - and the same mother - Emelia Sotzmann. But, the name of the child is different: George Gotthard.

I looked through the R.C. records using the link you provided and could not find any birth records for Sotzman, Setzman, or Zecman. However, I followed a hunch that if they were German, you might find the records in the Evangelical Church records for Wloclawek. I looked in those books and found the record attached. You will have to have it translated to see if the mother really is Emelia Sotzmann and to see if her age matches the reference in the marriage record. Perhaps he changed his given name to Wojciech to fit in?

Sorry for yet another possible curve...

Good luck,
Cynthia

My goodness! I've been busy with family matters and haven't had a chance to reply until now. All I can say is THANK YOU!

I don't know how you did it, but I hope you can show me which repository you accessed the record from so I can try and search back on the Sotzmann name. As you said, there are more curves, but you're discovery has given me great inroads in my search back in time.

Thank you so much!
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:22 pm

mcdonald0517 wrote:

I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia

Hi,

Here is the record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==

https://forum.polishorigins.com/files/1847_29_sotzmann_birth_record_160.jpg
N29
Wloclawek
Dzialo sie w Wloclawku dnia /4/16/ marca 1847, 3 pm. Stawila sie Wilhelmina Ulbrych, akuszerka tu we Wloclawku zamieszkala, lat 63 liczaca, w obecnosci Teodora Ulbrych, rzeznika, lat 27, i Jana Wilhelm, zegarmistrza lat 46 liczacych, tu w Wloclawku zamieszkalych, i okazala nam dziecie plci meskiej, urodzone tu w Wloclawku, dnia /18 lutego/2 marca/ roku biezacego, 4 am, z ojca niewiadomego i Emilii Sotzmann, niezameznej, sluzacej w Wloclawku zamieszkalej, lat 20 liczacej. Dziecieciu temu na chrzcie swietym dzis odbytym nadano imiona Georg Gotthard, a rodzicami jego chrzestnymi byli wspomniony Ulbrych z Amalia Ulbrych. Akt ten spozniony, dla slabosci matki dzieciecia, stawajacym i swiadkom przeczytany, przez Wilhelma podpisany zostal, inni pisac nie umieja.
Signature: Jan Wilhelm, and Pastor (B Tydelski?)
//
It happened in Wloclawek on /4/16/ March 1847, 3 pm. Appeared Wilhelmina Ulbrych, a midwife, residing here in Wloclawek, 63 years old, in the presence of Teodor Ulbrych, butcher, 27-year-old, and Jan Wilhelm, watchmaker, 46 years old, residing here in Wloclawek, and presented us a male child, born here in Wloclawek, on /18 February/2 March/ of the current year, 4am, from the unknown father and Emilia Sotzmann, unmarried, servant residing in Wloclawek, 20 years old. On the holy baptism held today the child was given the names Georg Gotthard, and his godparents were mentioned above Ulbrych and Amalia Ulbrych. This act in late, due to the weakness of the child’s mother, have been read to the present and witnesses, signed by Wilhelm, others do not know how to write.
==
DATE-of-ACT: /4/16/ March 1847, 3 pm, in Wloclawek
DECLARANT: midwife Wilhelmina Ulbrych, residing here in Wloclawek, 63 years old
WITNESSES: Teodor Ulbrych, butcher, 27-year-old, and Jan Wilhelm, watchmaker, 46 years old, residing here in Wloclawek
KTO: Georg Gotthard Sotzmann
DATE-of-BIRTH: in Wloclawek, on /18 February/2 March/ 1847, 4am
FATHER: unknown
MOTHER: Emilia Sotzmann, unmarried, servant residing in Wloclawek, 20 years old
GODPARENTS: Teodor Ulbrych, and Amalia Ulbrych
==

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

mcdonald0517 — Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:45 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:45 pm

I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

mcdonald0517 — Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:40 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:40 pm

Hi Joe,

I found something, but it may or may not be your ancestor. It is the same year - 1847 - and the same mother - Emelia Sotzmann. But, the name of the child is different: George Gotthard.

I looked through the R.C. records using the link you provided and could not find any birth records for Sotzman, Setzman, or Zecman. However, I followed a hunch that if they were German, you might find the records in the Evangelical Church records for Wloclawek. I looked in those books and found the record attached. You will have to have it translated to see if the mother really is Emelia Sotzmann and to see if her age matches the reference in the marriage record. Perhaps he changed his given name to Wojciech to fit in?

Sorry for yet another possible curve...

Good luck,
Cynthia

Zecman -> Setzmann -> Sötzmann

JGwizdowski — Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:51 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:51 pm

The 1867 marriage record of my g.grandfather Wojciech Sötzmann to Maryanna Bugolowska throws another variation of the surname into my search mix. In later birth documents for my grandfather and g.uncle, the surname bounces back and forth between Setzmann/Zecman.

In the translation of the 1867 marriage record (the earliest record I've obtained so far) provided by Marcel, information recorded about the groom states:

"Wojciech Sotzman, cooper, born in Włocławek, son of Emilia Sotzman, daylaborer living in Włocławek, 20 years old, according to attached birth record born in Włocławek, living with his mother in Włocławek"

It certainly sounds like the priest was looking at the actual birth record, which should be 1847. I've looked at records +/- 5 years and haven't seen anything close.

Also, in the index listing, the "o" in Sotzmann has the diacritical mark (see the attached) that, to me, looks more German than Polish. Is that correct?

I thought this would be a breeze to find but I am coming up empty handed. Maybe I'm missing something? If anyone has any ideas I would be grateful. I'm looking through https://genealogiawarchiwach.pl/, but perhaps there are other sources available?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:48 am

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:48 am

Sophia wrote:

Hi again Joe,
Don't worry, you still have all of your marbles!
And you have the fantastic find, in your 1843 marriage record for Jakub Zecman in the Russian translations thread, that his father Andrzej Zecmann was born in Berlin. I would look for Andrzej as Andreas, and try Setzmann and Zetzmann, and somewhat cautiously look at Sitzmann.
Good luck!
Sophia

Thanks for the encouragement, Sophia. I really need it!

As for the Jakub and Andrzej Zecman connection, it's still a working theory that I have not connected the dots directly. Given the relative uniqueness of the name, and the reference made by my great uncle Alexsander that his family migrated from Germany, it's a lead worth pursuing, I think.

It's been an amazing journey for me...after 25 years of slow and mostly fruitless work, 2017 is the year the floodgates have opened up!

Thank you!
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

Sophia — Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:03 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:03 am

Hi again Joe,
Don't worry, you still have all of your marbles!
And you have the fantastic find, in your 1843 marriage record for Jakub Zecman in the Russian translations thread, that his father Andrzej Zecmann was born in Berlin. I would look for Andrzej as Andreas, and try Setzmann and Zetzmann, and somewhat cautiously look at Sitzmann.
Good luck!
Sophia

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:17 pm

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:17 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi Joe,
That was my response you were notified of. I re-read my words later in the day and decided they were not as helpful as I would have wanted them to be, so I deleted them.
I interpret Zecman and Setzmann to be the same surname, the former using Polish spelling rules and the latter using German spelling rules. The sound is practically identical. You might do better using the spelling Zetzmann to look for German records.
Best of luck in your research,
Sophia

LOL.. I thought I was losing it! I can see there are no "rules" to follow on this and I'll just have to keep an open mind on this one. Thank you!!
Joe

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

Sophia — Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:06 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:06 am

Hi Joe,
That was my response you were notified of. I re-read my words later in the day and decided they were not as helpful as I would have wanted them to be, so I deleted them.
I interpret Zecman and Setzmann to be the same surname, the former using Polish spelling rules and the latter using German spelling rules. The sound is practically identical. You might do better using the spelling Zetzmann to look for German records.
Best of luck in your research,
Sophia

Re: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:18 am

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:18 am

I know this sounds strange, but a few days ago I thought I saw a notification on my phone that someone responded to this thread...but am unable to find it now. It was a rather lengthy response to my question, but I have no idea what happened.

To whoever made that reply... my apologies!
Thanks,
Joe

Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames

JGwizdowski — Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:40 am

Author: JGwizdowski

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:40 am

Here in the states, both my uncle and my grandfather went by Zecman. On their Hamburg and New York listings, they were Setzmann/Setzman. It was explained to me that Setzmann probably has German origins, which conforms with family lore, but is pronounced Zecman in Polish. I had always assumed that the Zecman name was adopted here in America.

But on recently discovered birth records the surname is shown as Zecman/Setzman.

My question is, what is the most likely actual surname? The records indicate they were all illiterate, so was the spelling left up to the registrar, and put both surname spellings down to cover the possibilities?

I'm running out of "Zecman" records beyond my grandfather, so I'm wondering if I might need to start looking east, toward Germany, for the Setzman name.

Just looking for ideas from those who've been there

Thanks,
Joe