PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:27 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:27 pm

Dave, your knowledge of Latin records and their notations has shed light on valuable information in the Danisiewicz-Buzun marriage record. You wrote a very informational post! I learned something.

Mike, you asked about incomplete dates on Geneteka. On sites like Lubgens and Geneteka the records are transcribed by volunteers. Also, I would guess availability of access to records would also be a factor.

Diane

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:10 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:10 pm

Dave

Thanks so much for the lengthy, informative, and entertaining account of Polish history, It all makes sense, particularly the fact that "Litwke village' is really not a village but rather a reference to the fact that he was from a lithuanian village!

Do you have any recommendations for search engines for me to search for a Buzun birth record for Lithuania? Or the Orthodox church? Is there a different search engine than the Geneteka? Some search engines don't cover all those dates. Is theres reason for this?

Re: Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dnowicki — Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:28 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:28 pm

dano wrote:

Dave/Diane/etc.

I finally received marriage records for both my grandparents from the Boston Diocese. I have both attached. Unfortunately I didn't get the most important information I had hoped, birth towns!

I'm particularly interested in the birth places of Mikalaj Danisiewicz and Stefania Buzun. What I have from their Naturalization Papers is Litwke Village and Grodno, Bialystock.

Thanks for looking at theses records.

mike

Diane & Mike,

Although the Daniszewicz-Buzun marriage record doesn’t help much with a place of birth it is far from devoid of useful information. The biggest and best chunk of data is found in the notation in the column at the far right of the entry. The Latin translates as: “Greek schismatic embraced the Catholic Faith on May 23, 1914 (the day before the wedding ceremony) in the presence of the witnesses Raphael Kuklewski(?) and Peter Lopczyński.” This a valuable piece of info because it means that in Europe Nicholas/Mikołaj was a member of the Orthodox Faith so any search for records from Europe would need to be in Orthodox Parish records rather than in Roman Catholic Parish records. The term Greek schismatic is a technical reference to someone of the Orthodox Faith. The schism (separation between the Church of Rome and that of Constantinople) took place in the year 1054 and continues to this day. The schism was not so much over articles of belief as over church practices and the issue of papal primacy. Nicholas did not need to be baptized again when he converted to the Catholic Faith since both branches of Christianity have what are considered valid sacraments by both groups. What he did was profess his belief in the teachings of the Church of Rome. That he converted to Roman Catholicism explains why no marriage banns were announced prior to the wedding and why there is no explicit mention of places of birth/baptism for the bride and groom in Europe. This doesn’t help to determine exactly where the bride and groom were born and baptized in Europe, but it does direct the search to the type of records where the info about Mikołaj and his ancestors would be found.

The 1914 marriage record lists the groom as Nicolaus (Polish: Mikołaj; English: Nicholas [like in jolly old Saint Nick who keeps lists of naughty and nice children unlike the Easter Bunny who brings candy to everyone without the naughty & nice lists]). I realize that he appeared in the 1940 Census as Michael, which is not a translation of his actual name but may have been a name by which he was also known. His father is Clemens (Polish: Klemens; English: Clement). His mother is Pelagia (in Latin, Polish and English). The name comes from antiquity and means “of the sea”. Some Polish women in the USA called themselves “Pearl”, but the actual Latin name for a pearl is margarita, from which the English name Margaret is derived. The bride is Stephania (Polish: Stefania; English: Stephanie). Her father is Vincentius (Polish: Wincenty; English: Vincent) and her mother is Anna (in all three languages).

You mention Grodno and Litwke Village as appearing in documents as places of birth. Prior to the Partitions of Poland Grodno was with woj. trockie of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów) which was formally known as The Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Królestwo Polskie i Wielkie Księstwo Litewskie) and Grodno was located within the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. When all the smoke cleared after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 Grodno was within the territory of the Old Commonwealth which had been directly incorporated into the Russian Empire. Today it is part of Belarus and thus any research would need to be done there rather than in Polish archives. In my opinion, Litwke Village is not the name of a specific place but is an attempt to say that he was born in a Lithuanian village, which makes historical sense.

Accoring to the marriage record Diane located the groom was 25 in 1864 and the bride was 20, Since Stephania’s year of birth ranges from 1890 to 1893 it is possible that the couple could be her parents—especially if she was actually born in 1890 as her naturalization index card states. In 1890 her mother would have been about 46 and in 1893 she would have been about 49 which ages are both in the realms of the possibles. The archive where the marriage record (as well as the remaining records for the parish) is housed is th National Historical Archive in Wilno, which means that Stefania’s birth record would probably be found in Lithuania rather than in Poland.

If the Pietraszek records had not already been located, the marriage record from Salem would have provided the name of the parish where the records had originated. The marriage record is one more piece of evidence which confirms that all the records previously located are for the correct individuals.

It seems to me that in order to move the research forward on the Danisiewicz and Buzun lines the focus needs to change from Poland to Lithuania and to Belarus.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:45 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:45 pm

You are welcome:)

Victor Buzon WWI draft https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZNS-6NN signature reads Buzun to me.

Geneteka Podlaskie search is here http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&w=10pl

From that search engine, look for Wincenty Buzun. Under marriages there is a possible match for your great grandparents 1864 marriage in Korycin parish - Wincenty Buzun and Anna Kloza. This marriage seems a little early for Stefania's birth, unless the bride was very young and she had your grandmother later in life.

Here is a long link to the towns on map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Sokolka,+16-100,+Poland/19-122+Korycin,+Poland/@53.4134528,22.736475,9z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x46e009837e37d38b:0xbafbe587213bf9cd!2m2!1d23.5030235!2d53.4061597!1m5!1m1!1s0x46e01705af56ba95:0x2aebbe789b809edf!2m2!1d23.0906495!2d53.4452138!3e2

Looks like the whole map link isn't hightlighted. Copy the whole thing.

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:55 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:55 pm

Diane,

Thanks so much for all the help!

Yes, it was easy as long as I listed Sulow as the town.

His name is Mikolaj. I didn't know the Nicholas translation.I did have his father as Clemens Danisiewicz and mother as Apollonia Woroniecka. My dad's name was Clement! My grandmother, Stephanie Buzon, I had her father asa Wincenty Buzun and mother Anna Kloza. Mikolaj Naturalization Paper lists his birth as Litwke Village! I did hear he was raised in a Boys Home or orphanage with some scribbled hand writing as Grodno, Hroona, or Ka(o)mso(i)mol. Not sure what those words mean. He may have worked for the Russian Calvary, caring for the horses growing up.

Antoni was Stephani's brother, I know very little about him. Victor is new to me! Is Sokolka in Poland and the same province?.Was that a US Draft Card?

I was about to ask you for a search engine for Podlaskie Province but I think you attached it. I will look for the two towns, so I assume they are located fairly close, Korycin and Sokolka.

thanks again for all the help!!!

mike

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:55 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:55 pm

Sorry the link didn’t work. I see you found Marianna Sobótka’s birth record again and requested a Russian translation.

On the marriage record Danisiewicz-Buzun record, you’re right, it doesn’t provide as many clues to place of birth. The record is in Latin. Was your grandfather’s name Mikolaj? I have a Mikolaj in my tree and it sometimes was translated to Nicholas or to Michael. His parents names look like Clementis and Pelagia Woronco?? The brides name was misspelled as Buzon, I can’t make out her father’s name but her mother’s may be Anna Kloze? A Latin record translation may help.

What jumped out at me most was the names of the witnesses – Victor and Antonio Buzon. Do you know if they are your grandmother’s brothers? Is see an Antoni buried with your grandparents. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/184682833 I also found a WWI draft registration for Victor (Buzon) that leads to an interesting clue. It says he was born in Sokolka.

Looking on geneteca in the Podlaskie province (where Bialystok is) for the Buzun name http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=10pl&rid=B&search_lastname=buzon&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=&rpp1=&ordertable=, (hope that link works) records are only indexed until the 1860’s. What I find interesting is that the name appears frequently in the parish of Korycin with births in the town of Czarnystok. The last name Kloza also appears in some of the Korycin records. There are also Buzon names appearing in Sokółka parish. Look at a map for Korycin and Sokółka and their distances from Bialystok.

Based on the naturalization record, were you able to find the immigration records for those grandparents? That could provide more clues.

Good luck.
Diane

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 pm

Diane,

No I don't think I have had Marianna's birth translated.I'll have to run it, the link didn't work.

Did you get a chance to look at the Danisiewicz marriage record>

mike

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:59 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:59 pm

I see the pdf. On this marriage record it does have the baptism locations.

Combined with Marcel's Apr 16, 2019 translation of Franciszek Pietraszek's birth, you have his birth location - Stara Wieś.

I may have missed it, but did you ever get Marianna Sobótka's birth translated? https://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766

Diane

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:14 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:14 pm

Dave I think it attached as a Pfd?

mike

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:13 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:13 pm

attached as a PFD

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:48 pm

It shows up in the "Choose File but doesn't seem to attach?

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 pm

I don't know if there is a size limit. What is it doing or not doing?

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:42 pm

not having luck with the second one, wonder if it is too large?

Mike

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:36 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:36 pm

Did you say you were posting both marriage records? I don't see the Franciszek Pietraszek and Maryanna Sobotka marriage.

Pietraszek /Sobotka Surnames

dano — Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:57 pm

Author: dano

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:57 pm

Dave/Diane/etc.

I finally received marriage records for both my grandparents from the Boston Diocese. I have both attached. Unfortunately I didn't get the most important information I had hoped, birth towns!

I'm particularly interested in the birth places of Mikalaj Danisiewicz and Stefania Buzun. What I have from their Naturalization Papers is Litwke Village and Grodno, Bialystock.

Thanks for looking at theses records.

mike

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:15 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:15 pm

Hi Dave,

So far, I can only pick minimal info from records in Cyrillic - like sometimes repeated names or locations. I thought that was possibly the right mother. And I know what you mean about death record info from informants being inconsistent.

The researcher in me tends to keep searching, once a new clue surfaces so I kept posting what I found in case the info could help Mike in his search. Thanks for your feedback!

Diane

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

dnowicki — Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:53 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:53 pm

looking for clues wrote:

Mike and Dave,

There is a possible marriage record for Jozefa to Jozef Łukasik in 1897. https://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766 I can't read Russian, but thought I might see a semblance to Marianna Kołodziej but I could be wrong. (Dave does this look like a possibility?)

If the marriage is correct potential death record here. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VN5P-3GP Father matches but mother and age are off. Maybe witness error?

Hi Diane & Mike,

I see the parents of Józefa as Wawrzyniec (Pietraszek) and Maryanna Kołodzej. Other data which matches—her age is 23, which is a good match, her place of birth matches the birth record (Sułów). My ability to read Cyrillic is self-taught and is rather limited. There is enough evidence to justify requesting a complete translation.

The death record is a probable match even though not all the details are consistent. But given that the info in a death record comes from an informant who may or may not have the correct details inconsistencies are not a deal breaker.

Thus far it appears that the research has progressed rather well.

Dave

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:50 am

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:50 am

Mike and Dave,

There is a possible marriage record for Jozefa to Jozef Łukasik in 1897. https://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766 I can't read Russian, but thought I might see a semblance to Marianna Kołodziej but I could be wrong. (Dave does this look like a possibility?)

If the marriage is correct potential death record here. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VN5P-3GP Father matches but mother and age are off. Maybe witness error?

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

dnowicki — Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 pm

looking for clues wrote:

First off, I have corrected the link in my post above to the death record for Wawrzyniec Pietraszek in 1924 in Łęczyca in the parish of Bychawa. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVMP-JTF7 Sorry, I pasted the wrong link. Note this record is in Polish.

My quick thoughts - I too think that the 1870 Pietrasek/Kolodziej marriage record in Zakrzówek is likely the correct one. The parents, Franciszek and Agnieska Paciorek Pietraszek match the names in the 1924 death record. The birth year is a little off, but I don't count on the age at death necessarily being correct. I've come across some crazy seeming ones. It makes sense too that Wawrzyniec named his son after his father.

Wawrzyniec Pietraszek and Marianna Kolodziej may have married in Zakrzówek in 1870, had children there before settling in Stara Wieś in the Bychawa parish in by the time of the births of Katarzyna, Karolina and Franciszek. Looking at lubgens, there are a number of Pietraszek children born in Zakrzówek in the 1870's. These records are in Russian. And, these towns are all pretty close to each other. There could very well be other children born in another parish. There could also be records not indexed.

One thing that surprised me when starting to look at the Polish records was that people did move around in Poland more than I realized. I still have my own mystery of not finding two of my grandparent's births - yet.

Diane

Mike & Diane,

There were two children born in Zakrzówek, the first Franciszek in 1871 and Józefa in 1874. The first Franciszek died in 1872. It seems that the remaining children indexed for Zakrzówek were born of other parents. The Karolina found by Diane was the child of Wawrzyniec and Maryanna. The other children Diane found are also their children.

Here are links to four scans.
1871 #129 Franciszek Birth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-R8Q6-FN?i=480&cc=1867931

1874 #37 Józefa Birth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-R8Q8-24?i=606&cc=1867931

1872 #6 Death Franciszek #1 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-R8Q6-L2?i=543&cc=1867931&cat=1055845

1886 #121 Death Karolina https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-R89N-HJ?i=223&cc=1867931

It is certainly possible that other children may have been born in a different parish. Each partition had its own problems and it was quite common for peasants in the Russian Partition to move from one parish to another as they searched for employment. By a decree of the Czar in 1864 the peasants were emancipated from their feudal obligations and land reform was promised. However, according to statistics provided by Dominic Pacyga in Polish Immigrants and Industrial Chicago the land reforms did not deliver on the promised land redistribution. In fact, the number of landless peasants in Russian Poland increased from 220,000 in 1870 to 849,000 by 1891. Those who had no land moved around in search of employment.

Evidently Wawrzyniec’s wife Maryanna died before him and he remarried since his death record lists his widow as Zofia née Bystryk.

Dave

Re: Grandparent's Birthplace

looking for clues — Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Per Marcel's translation and the index, it does appear that your grandfather Franciszek did have his last name spelled without the "z" on his birth record as did his two likely siblings in Bychawa. Death record in 1924 for his father goes back to including the "z." It looks like sister Katarzyna spelled it both ways.

With my family I too experienced similar quirks.

When one of my ancestor got married in another parish, the name ending in "al" changed to "ol" His wife's death record (died young) and all the records for his son had the "ol." The ancestor who spelled it "al" as did his parents and grandparents stuck with the "al" spelling.

Records for another of my ancestors showed half the birth records adding an extra "s" to a name during the period that they lived in a particular town.

It makes things confusing.