PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Witkowo & Parish Church

dnowicki — Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:35 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:35 pm

Hi Bill,

Here are some things you may find interesting/useful. The Słownik geograficzny describes Witkowo. At around the time of Leon’s birth the town had a population of 1,583, of whom 1,127 were Catholic, 144 were Protestant, and 312 were Jewish. The town had 159 houses and an area of 288 hectares. The entry you want is the third in the right hand column, which continues on the next page. Here is the link: http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_XIII/669

The parish church where Leon and his siblings were baptized and where his parents were married is the church of St. Nicholas (św. Mikołaja) and the current masonry church structure was blessed in 1838. Here is a link to the history of the parish: http://parafiawitkowo.pl/historia-parafii/

The following link takes you to pictures of the parish church:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Parish+P.W.+St.+Nicholas+Witkowo/@52.4403258,17.7729048,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipPD1MHLOGFrf-08Xy8Cw4tl6e4dtZy4NWeeSulU!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPD1MHLOGFrf-08Xy8Cw4tl6e4dtZy4NWeeSulU%3Dw128-h86-k-no!7i1200!8i803!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xcb7ad3c07ea955bb!8m2!3d52.4401163!4d17.772789

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:27 am

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:27 am

They are public posts....

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

Winkle/Harvinski — Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:28 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:28 am

Thanks again, Cynthia. Your gand father's story is even wilder than mine! I read the entire ghost mine story and indeed it was fascinating. I can see leo and Maggie living in one of those houses.

My tree on Family Search is going better than I thought. I have my great great grand parents entered and I'm starting to add the details. Amazing!!! And I was almost ready to give up when I met you and Dave.

Oh, and at least one of them is tailor. Surprise.
.
Regards,
Bill

PS Not that it really matters, but are these posts private or public?

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 pm

Hi Bill,

I know this is a lot of information to take in. Take your time and get the documents Dave found organized and translated. Also don’t forget to read the PDF file I posted earlier about the history of Eleanora mines.

To answer some of your questions...

I use ancestry.com for my family tree. I also use Family Tree Maker software to sync up with my ancestry.com tree and download it to my computer. That way I have the tree in both places.

We often find family secrets as we pursue genealogy research. My family never spoke of my grandfather John. We knew nothing about him because he died very young. There was also a scandal that no one talked about. That’s what got me started researching. I did discover the scandal. Turns out he came to the US at age 18 and got hooked up with a woman of ill repute. She got pregnant and put him in jail for a crime that was then called “bastardy”. She would only drop charges if he agreed to marry her which he did. Then, when he was working in another town and sending her paychecks, she ended up entertaining other men. He came home unexpectedly one night and caught her with another man. He filed for divorce but because he was so poor it dragged on for two years. Meanwhile he met and fell for my grandmother Katy. They had their first child out of wedlock in 1917. His divorce was granted in August 1918 and my grandma Katy marched him down to the courthouse in September and they married. They had my dad in Jan 1921 and then Grandpa John died from flu complications in April 1921. Several years ago I finally found his unmarked grave and placed a headstone in his memory. So, yes, we are all fallible humans and we all have our stories. Our flaws do not represent who we really are. I am sure Leo is far bigger than his flaws.

As to the family story about a Winkel being hairdresser to the Empress of Germany.... it is possible. The Winkel Family probably originated from Germany and were part of the wave of colonists coming into Poland when it was part of the Prussian Empire. This happened with my family too. So, now that you found the location of the Winkel Family in Poland, you can search back to previous generations to see if you can trace where in Germany they originated.

All the best,
Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

Winkle/Harvinski — Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:22 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:22 am

Oh my goodness, Dave!!! I just found your posts this morning. Wow, thank you very much. I have to wake up and get on the ball. It will take me quite a while to organize on a tree all the info you and Cynthia have found before I even try to dig further -- especially to discover what these families did in Poland -- miners, farmers, craftsmen, barbers? My mother mentioned offhand several times that one of the Winkels was hairdresser to the Kaiser's wife. I'm beginning to believe it, except for the fact that they lived in the German controlled section of Poland -- not Germany or Austria.

Thanks again to you both.

Bill

Confusion

Winkle/Harvinski — Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:07 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:07 am

Hi, Cynthia, thanks again for all the work you're doing. I seem to be having trouble receiving your messages. I was able to bring up you message from Wed. evening only on my cell phone last night, but I can't find it on my computer. The Sunday message just showed up on my computer now, but not on my cell phone. I might have done something wrong when I signed up on PO. I'll try to figure it out.

I think I will have to start a new tree for just Winkle's; the one on F. Search is a mess. I have to get all these names you found in some order before I lose them. Do you have favorite site for trees? It amazing that you went back another generation in Poland!

I'm going to start devoting more time to genealogy. I'm retired from teaching and business, but I still volunteer as manager of a 250-acre wildlife sanctuary. And my publisher is after me to finish the sequel to my last novel, but I'm determined to keep up my chase after Leo. I don't want him defined by a death from being pushed down the steps of a "questionable" establishment at a young age. He started two of his sons in the electric business in Youngstown (still operating) and another son invented the Home Perm in Phillipsburg, PA and Leo was apparently speculating in PA by leasing land to coal mines among other things. His entire family disowned him after his death and none of them would talk about him. Well, that's more than you want to hear. Without being nosy, what is like on you end?

I'll write again as soon as I catch up on the info you sent.

Regards,
Bill

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:04 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:04 pm

What a goldmine of information, Dave! I love the team work. It felt like I was part of a relay team passing the baton

Well, Bill, this should keep you quite busy for a while. And, if it doesn't, I have attached the document I told you about that details the history of Eleanora, PA and the mines. It is a great read. Makes you really get a feel for what it was like to work the mines and live in the mining town. BTW, the file is a PDF file.

All the best,
Cynthja

Translation of Leon's birth record and his parents' marriage

dnowicki — Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:39 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:39 pm

Hi Bill,

Here is the translation of Leon’s birth and baptism record. You can use the column headings as a template for the other b & b records.

Col. 1: Numerus = Number: 87
Col 2: Nativitatis = Of Birth
Col.2a: Annus et mensis = Year and month: 1875, September
Col. 2b: Dies = Day: 16
Col. 2c: Hora = Hour: 6 vesp(ere) = 6 in the evening
Col. 3: Pueri = Boys
Col. 3a: Legitimi = Legitimate: (#) 44
Col. 3b: Illegitimi = Illegitimate: Blank
Col. 4: Puellae = Girls
Col. 4a: Legitimae = Legitimate: Blank
Col. 4b: Illegitimae = Illegitimate: Blank
Col. 5: Locus Nativitatis = Place of Birth: Witkowo oppidum = the town of Witkowo
Col. 6: Infantis = Of the Child
Col. 6a: Baptismi = Of the Baptism
Col. 6a1: Annus et Mensis = The Year and Month: 1875, September
Col. 6a2: Dies = Day: 19
Col. 6b: Nomen = Name: Leo Vladislaus = Leon Władysław
Col. 7: Nomen et Cognomen Sacerdotis baptismum administrantis = The Given and the Surname of the Priest administering the baptism: idem = the same (Martinus Nozewnik curat(us) loci = Marcin Nozewnik, the curate of the place
Col. 8: Nomen et Cognomen = The Given and the Surname
Col. 8a: Patris = Of the Father: Joannes Winkel = Jan Winkel
Col. 8b: Matris = Of the Mother: Anna Barankiewicz
Col. 9: Religio = The Religion
Col. 9a: Patris = Of the Father: Catholic
Col. 9b: Matris = Of the Mother: Catholic
Col. 10: Conditio et professio Patris = The condition/status and profession/occupation of the Father: sartor = tailor
Col. 11: Patrinorum = Of the Sponsors
Col. 11a: Nomen et Cognomen = The Given and the Surname: Franciscus Nowicki = Franciszek Nowicki; Marianna Winkel = Maryanna Winkel
Col. 11b: Conditio et professio = (Their) condition/status and profession/occupation: operarius = day laborer; filia operarii = the daughter of a day laborer
Col. 12: Adnotationes utrum gemelli? Seu quid aliud notatu necessarium = Notations: whether twins? Or something else which need be noted: Blank

Here is the translation of the marriage record of your great-grandparents.
Col. 1: Numerus = Number (for the year): 9
Col. 2: Dies et Mensis Copulationis = The Day and Month of the Marriage:6 Maji = May 6 (1873)
Col. 3: Nomen Sacerdotis Benedicentis Matrimonium = The Name of the Priest blessing the Marriage: idem = the same = Marcin Nozewnik, the curate of the place
Col. 4: Nomen et Cognomen Copulatorum, demominato domicilii, status artis vel conditionis vitae, et utrum copulatio in ecclesia an in privato copulati sint = The First Name and Surname of those marrying, (their) place of residence, status of art or condition of life, and whether they were married in a church or in private: Joannes Winkel, sartor, cum Anna Bentkowska, ambo de Strzyzewo = Jan Winkel, a tailor, with Anna Bentkowska, both from Strzyzewo (a village on the eastern edge of the town of Witkowo)
Col. 5: Num copulati vel una pars eorum antea vinculo matrimonii obstricti aut obstricta fuit, num sub potestate patrentum (corrected from parentem) vel tutorum existunt. = Whether one of them already had benn bound by the state of matrimony or if not, whether they remained to this time under the tutelage of (their) parents or guardians: juvenis cum vidua = a single young man with a widow
Col. 6: Aetas = Age
Col. 6a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: 27
Col. 6b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: 26
Col. 7: Religio = Religion
Col. 7a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: Catholic
Col. 7b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: Catholic
Col. 8: Nomen et Cognomen Parentum = Given & Surname of the Parents
Col. 8a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: Martinus (et) Agnes = Marcin (&) Agnieszka
Col. 8b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: Andreas (et) Marianna = Andrzej (&) Maryanna
Col. 9: Num cum Consensu Parentum vel Tutorum vel Judicii Tutelaris Matrimonium Contractum Sit. = Whether the marriage was contracted with the Consent of the Parents or of the Guardians or of the Court of Guardianship: sponsa cum consensu Jud. Tutel. Gnesn. d. 25 April.cur. = The bride with the consent of the Guardianship Court at Gniezno on the 25th day of April of the current year.
Col. 10: Dies Promulgationum = dates of the Proclamation (of the Banns): Dom. in Alb., Dom. II et III p. Pasch. = The Sunday in white (i.e. the Sunday after Easter, the Octave Day of Easter), the 2nd and the 3rd Sundays after Easter
Col. 11: Num cum Dispensatione Aliqua Matrimonium Contraxerunt et de Quo Dato = Whether they contracted marriage with any dispensation and from what it was granted. :Blank
Col. 12: Nomen, Cognomen, ars et conditio vitae adstantium testium = The First Names and Surnames, profession and state of life of the present witnesses: Martinus Winkel operarius (et) Antonius Błaszak agricola = Marcin Winkel, a day laborer (&) Antoni Błaszak, a farmer
Col. 13: Adnotatio = Notation: None

A Research Hint: Births and Deaths for Witkowo are not indexed on Geneteka or on Family Search or on any other site of which I am aware. The most effective to find birth and death records in the old fashioned method of going through the pages in the appropriate register. It is a bit more work, but all that difficult. Since most records are indexed by volunteers it is always possible that the records you need may become indexed in the near (or distant) future. The index of choice for marriages in what was the Prov. of Posen is the Poznan Project: http://poznan-project.psnc.pl/

As a PDF I’m posting a list of Latin first names along with their Polish and English versions. It is not exhaustive but contains names I’ve encountered in my own research and in doing translations for other researchers.

If you have any questions you can ask on the public forum or you can ask Cynthia or me via private message.

Wishing you continued good luck and successful researching,

Dave

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

dnowicki — Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:26 pm

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Hi William,

Found this marriage index entry on the Poznán Project website. It lines up with the names on the Family Search tree you found and the date lines up with the subsequent birth of their children - Stanislawa and Leon. This could be your Johan and Anna.

Catholic parish Witkowo
entry 9 / 1873
Joannes Winkel (27 years old) 100%
father: Martinus Winkel , mother: Agnes
Anna Bentkoska nee Barankiewicz (26 years old, widow) 70%
father: Joseph Barankiewicz , mother: Barbara

This is just the index. To request the
Is record ( and Leon’s birth record) you need to contact the archdiocese of Gniezno....here is a note from the website:

Our database only provides basic information to identify the spouses. There is no liability for the accuracy, as it depends on the quality of the record and the skills of the transcriber. The full information about the marriage can only be found in the original records.
The original record for this marriage is held in the Archdiocesan Archive in Gniezno, Poland.
To obtain a certificate or digital copy, or any further research, please refer to the information provided by the Archdiocese.

The archive's postal address:
Archiwum Archidiecezjalne w Gnieznie
Ul. Kolegiaty 2
62-200 Gniezno
POLAND

WWW: http://www.archiwum.archidiecezja.pl

Best,
Cynthia

Hi Bill & Cynthia,

Cynthia, working together to help one with research is one of the best and most enjoyable aspects of this forum and is what over the years I’ve found it to be that which, as the ancient Latin author Ennius wrote, makes “vita vitalis” (to render the quote freely—makes the entire enterprise worthwhile). I had some time to spare so I did a bit of research and located some records from the USA and Europe on Family Search and have included the links here. One is to the actual marriage record of Leon/Leo’s parents, which you mentioned.

Bill, Leon had eight full siblings and three half-siblings from Anna’s first marriage. (Her first marriage is not available on Family Search.) One of those half-siblings died in infancy. When Jan and Anna married she brought one daughter and one son to their marriage. Your great-grandfather, Jan was a tailor, as was Anna’s first husband Wawrzyniec Bentkowski (also spelled Bętkowski). Leon is the Polish version of the name Leo, which comes from the Latin leo, leonis, m. lion. At baptism he was given two names, Leon Władysław.

The Harzinski marriages found in the US are an addition to the marriage of Stanisława Winkel, which Cynthia posted. I included the Harzinski records as something for your future use if, as you wrote, you want to keep your current research somewhat uncomplicated.

I found what appears to be the marriage of your grandmother Anna’s parents on the Poznan Project and the screenshot is attached. Trzemeszno is about 7km from Witkowo. One of my maternal great-grandmother’s brothers (the only one of her siblings who remained in Poland and did not immigrate to Chicago) was the postmaster in Trzemeszeno when Poland became independent after WWI.

I’ll include some tips for researching in what was the Province of Posen (German: Provinz Posen; Polish: Prowincja Poznańska) in my next post.

Anyway, here are the various links. Have fun.

Dave

USA Federal Census Harzinski

1900 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-631Q-Z9H?i=51&cc=1325221&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AM34X-18F

1910 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RN1-7TS?i=1&cc=1727033&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AMG4C-69T

1920 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RJV-PQ?i=35&cc=1488411&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AMFRK-MXT

USA Horzinski Marriages

Wasinski Horzinski Marriage—St. Mary of Częstochowa,Blossburg, PA
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCQ3-W7Y?i=94&cc=1589502

Minnie Horzinski & Zielinski Marriage—https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YMN3-MSG?i=1648&cc=1589502

Marriage of Jan Winkel & Anna Barankiewicz (widow)

1873 Witkowo matr. #9 Winkel-Barankiewicz Marriage: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-294W-G?i=22&cat=189048

Children of Jan Winkel & Anna Barankiewicz

1874 Witkowo B & B #20 Pelagia Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3J2-F?i=525&cat=189048

1875 Witkowo B & B #87 Leon (Leo) Władysław Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NT-X?i=539&cat=189048

1877 Witkowo b & b #28 Stanislawa Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NP-B?i=596&cat=189048

1880 Wikowo B & B #40 Teofil Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3J2-F?i=525&cat=189048

1882 Witkowo B & B #9 Aleksander Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NP-W?i=641&cat=189048

1883 Witkowo B & B #45 Zofia Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NG-2?i=662&cat=189048

1884 Witkowo B & B #67 Stefan Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3JX-J?i=674&cat=189048

1886 Witkowo B & B #112 Kazimierz Winkel: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3JF-Z?i=693&cat=189048

Children of Wawrzyniec Bentkowski & Anna Barankiewicz

1868 Witkowo B & B #10 Maryanna Bentkowska: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NB-4?i=463&cat=189048

1869 Witkowo B & B #65 Jakub Bentkowski: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3JL-Y?i=480&cat=189048

1870 Witkowo B & B #127 Tomasz Bentkowski: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-K3NY-F?i=494&cat=189048

Deaths

1870 Witkowo Mort. #44 Jakub Bentkowski: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-29WX-Z?i=307&cat=189048

1872 Witkowo Mort. #26 Wawrzyniec Bentkowski: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMD-29WX-3?i=314&cat=189048

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Hi William,

Found this marriage index entry on the Poznán Project website. It lines up with the names on the Family Search tree you found and the date lines up with the subsequent birth of their children - Stanislawa and Leon. This could be your Johan and Anna.

Catholic parish Witkowo
entry 9 / 1873
Joannes Winkel (27 years old) 100%
father: Martinus Winkel , mother: Agnes
Anna Bentkoska nee Barankiewicz (26 years old, widow) 70%
father: Joseph Barankiewicz , mother: Barbara

This is just the index. To request the
Is record ( and Leon’s birth record) you need to contact the archdiocese of Gniezno....here is a note from the website:

Our database only provides basic information to identify the spouses. There is no liability for the accuracy, as it depends on the quality of the record and the skills of the transcriber. The full information about the marriage can only be found in the original records.
The original record for this marriage is held in the Archdiocesan Archive in Gniezno, Poland.
To obtain a certificate or digital copy, or any further research, please refer to the information provided by the Archdiocese.

The archive's postal address:
Archiwum Archidiecezjalne w Gnieznie
Ul. Kolegiaty 2
62-200 Gniezno
POLAND

WWW: http://www.archiwum.archidiecezja.pl

Best,
Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:26 am

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:26 am

Hi William,

Yes, the Eleanora coal mine is where they lived and worked. Leo was a miner - many of the documents list miner as his occupation. The coal companies built housing for the workers and their families and viola a little village or town emerges. When the mine closes, the village collapses and people move out.

I found a fascinating document on the history of the Eleanora coal mine that really gives the reader a “slice of life” as to what it was like to live and work there. It is a pdf file. I will try and load it here later today.

Yes, it can sometimes feel magical when things suddenly pop up during your research. I have to keep reminding myself that things on the internet are always changing. New search engines, upgraded web content, new documents, etc. it is one reason I keep battering those genealogical walls!

More later today...

Cynthia

Ps - you pushed the right button

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

Winkle/Harvinski — Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:53 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:53 am

Thanks again, Cynthia. That's very interesting about Stella. It should make it easier to track down the family in Poland. However, so far I haven't had any luck researching Winkels in Witkowo nor in Eleanor, PA. It seems that village no longer exists. There is, however, an Eleanor Rd. which is only a couple miles long and an Eleanor mine where there was a tragic accident in late 1800s. Fortunately that area is much closer to where I live then the areas where they moved further east.

I did have some rare luck while following your leads. When I searched Leon Winkel on Fam. S. and then tried to connect the data to a tree, a window popped up asking me which person on the tree I wanted. Voila! One of them was a Leon Winkel who was from Witkowo and the names of the spouses and parents and dates matched. Why in the world this would come up unasked when I could never find in on a search is strange.

Regards,
Billl

PS Please let me know when you get this; I'm still having trouble hitting the right button to respond to your messages and need to know if this is the one.

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:54 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:54 pm

William,

That is fabulous news!! Congratulations!

When you have the time, I would love to hear how it all came together.

Also, as I was browsing through PA county marriage licenses in Family Search, I think I came across Leo's sibling - Stanislawa (Stella) Winkel. She married William Brezenski in 1895. Residence is Eleanora, PA and her parents are John and Annie Winkel.

See attached.

All the best,
Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

Winkle/Harvinski — Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:05 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:05 am

Cynthia and Dave,

Once again I can't thank you enough for your help.

I don't have time for great detail right now, but thanks to your info I found Leon/Leo Winkel with his parents Johann (John) and Anna (Annie) in Witkowo, a town of about 8000. Leo was never named Louis -- another bum steer -- but I think it was Leon in Poland and Leo thereafter in the US. (Anna's last name is mentioned as a prominent family in Poland in Michener's "Poland.")

I am excited to start digging further into all of their origins.

Bill

PS I've been ignoring Leo during research because of the "Leon."
PPS I've been researching Magdelena Harzinski along with Leo the whole time but don't mention it now to keep from scrambling my brains -- and maybe yours.

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:11 am

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Dave and William,

After reading what Dave wrote, I went back to the marriage record to look again. The marriage license was actually issued in Tioga county which is where the bride lived. The return certificate signed by the priest indicates the marriage took place in Adrian which is in Armstrong county. It also indicates the groom lived in Elenora which is in Jefferson County (about midway between Tioga county and Armstrong County). All the great research Dave did still applies. You still need to track down the sacramental parish record in Adrian, Armstrong county, diocese of Greensburg. That is where the priest was and so the marriage took place there.

I just wanted to be clear as to which county the license originated. Also, this may provide a clue as to where Leo was living. Perhaps he was living in Tioga county when he first met Maggie and decided to get married. Leo May have gone ahead to Elenora in Jefferson county to find work and then returned to Tioga for Maggie. Perhaps they got the license before leaving Tioga and then went on to Adrian in Armstrong county to again find work in the mines and actually got married at a church there. A working theory based on the evidence thus far.

It wouldn’t hurt to look in Tioga county for evidence of Leo living there before he married in 1898.

Great work, Dave!
I love it when the community works together!

Best,
Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

dnowicki — Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 pm

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Hi William,

You are very welcome. I am happy to help. I understand what it is like to search for a family member. My grandfather was lost to our family for almost 100 years. It took years of persevering and collecting tiny clues before I finally had a breakthrough and found him. You will find your grandfathers family in Poland eventually. Just keep going.

As to finding records on Family Search.... they are continually adding and indexing new records. That’s probably why I found them. You have to keep going back every now and then.

I am sure you will go to Eleanora PA and inquire at the Catholic Churches there to request a search of the sacramental marriage records. If you can’t find it at the local churches, try the diocese. I don’t know which diocese oversees Armstrong county, but you should be able to find that out fairly easily. The diocese may have the old records archived even if the parish in Eleanora no longer exists.

Did you ask the lady at Jefferson county about the 1893 naturalization record?

Keep me posted on your search. I know you will find him.

Best,
Cynthia

Hi Bill & Cynthia,

Armstrong County is currently part of the diocese of Greensburg, PA. In the 19th Century it was part of the diocese of Pittsburgh. I looked for the priest who officiated at the wedding, Rev. J. N. Zubrycki and found a passing reference to him in Adrian in about 1900. Here is the link to the article:
https://liturgicalcenter.org/media/parish_pdf/GBG/gbg-20.1.pdf
It appears that there never was a Catholic parish in Adrian so my guess is that he ministered to the Poles of that area as a mission connected to a parish in another place. (The above article mentions that a mission church (SS Peter & Paul) existed in Arcadia from 1905-1990, but that would not be the place where the marriage record would be housed.) Elenora was where the groom lived but the marriage record would be housed in the parish to which the priest was connected. I don’t believe that Elenora would be a viable place to look for the record. I checked Włacław Kruszka’s Historya Polska w Ameryce (1908) and he does not list a Polish parish in the area. I seems that the closest R.C. parish to Adrian is St. Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe in Kittanning (7.2 miles). If you can’t get the marriage record from the place where you got the baptismal records a possible place where the record could be housed would be the church in Kittanning. If the record is not there you might try contacting the diocese of Greensburg. When you request their marriage record don’t ask for a marriage certificate. That will not contain the info you need to trace back to where your grandparents were from in Europe. As for a photocopy of the entry in the parish marriage register. It should be in Latin and should name the place where they were baptized in Europe.

It looks like the marriage license return which Cynthia found may bring you the hammer you need to break down the proverbial brick wall you wrote about.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:57 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:57 pm

Hi William,

You are very welcome. I am happy to help. I understand what it is like to search for a family member. My grandfather was lost to our family for almost 100 years. It took years of persevering and collecting tiny clues before I finally had a breakthrough and found him. You will find your grandfathers family in Poland eventually. Just keep going.

As to finding records on Family Search.... they are continually adding and indexing new records. That’s probably why I found them. You have to keep going back every now and then.

I am sure you will go to Eleanora PA and inquire at the Catholic Churches there to request a search of the sacramental marriage records. If you can’t find it at the local churches, try the diocese. I don’t know which diocese oversees Armstrong county, but you should be able to find that out fairly easily. The diocese may have the old records archived even if the parish in Eleanora no longer exists.

Did you ask the lady at Jefferson county about the 1893 naturalization record?

Keep me posted on your search. I know you will find him.

Best,
Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

Winkle/Harvinski — Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:23 pm

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:23 pm

WOW, Cynthia! Thank you very much. I talked to a pleasant young lady at Jefferson records dept., but she had no records whatsoever for Leo Winkle. Also, many hours on Family Search and other sites did not bring up the critical marriage record that has the names not available on other sites or documents. I drove to Adrian in June and got baptismal records for the children, my mother, aunts and uncles, but nothing else. I've not had time to follow up, but I can't wait to look for Leo in Elenora, PA -- a town that NEVER appeared in years of research. It might show who Leo (not Louis) was living with.

I was also laboring under the wrong naturalization record. It listed a Louis Leo Winkel from Cleveland, which didn't seem right; your much earlier record makes a lot more sense. I cannot understand why these records never showed up.

Can't thank you enough. I hope we keep in touch. I sometimes get lost on the Polish Origins website.

Bill

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 pm

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 pm

Hi William,

Good news: I found Leo Winkel's marriage record on Family Search! Bad news: it does not show his place of birth. However it does show his parent's names are: John and Annie Winkel.

It also shows the catholic priest who married them and the town in which they were married (Adrian, PA). See attached.

Given the documents I found, this seems to be the most accurate dates for Leo Winkel:

B. 10 Jul 1875 (per WWI Draft Registration; this would be more accurate than any other document such as a census, death cert, etc., because he is reporting the information in person to the draft board - it is not second hand like in the other documents. It also aligns with his age on the marriage record)

M. 8 Nov 1898 in Adrian, PA (license filed in Armstrong county, PA)

D. 24 Apr 1926 in Youngstown Hospital, Ohio (per death certificate)

Cynthia

Re: Several Wielkopolski --ska

mcdonald0517 — Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:34 am

Author: mcdonald0517

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:34 am

I think I found his death certificate in Family Search. It gives his fathers name as John Winkel. See attached.

Cynthia