PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:03 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:03 pm

dnowicki wrote:

Jan_Barlow wrote:

Hi Dave,

Thanks for all the advice and info! So in your expert opinion, I want to clarify for myself. Antoni and Johanna, Antoni's Parents, and his parents were all serfs working on this large farm(we are talking 3 generations at this point!). The way I have understood this for the past day is that all of these ancestors of mine were in a nutshell--slaves. Either Antoni and Johanna escaped or they were set free by their Lord. Do I have this right? or are the definitions and descriptions I have been reading up on serfdom(particularly in Poland) paint a worse picture than what actually occurred? I can't even imagine that they earned or saved any kind of money for even a passage on a ship. Let alone migrate who knows what kind of distance to even make it to a port. All I can think is that if they didn't do what they did, my brother and I wouldn't exist.
Originally a few weeks ago, my ultimate goal was to find my last name, and hopefully reach a few generations back. But quite candidly, after only a few days I started searching I realized I wanted much more. Ultimately I would like to find Antoni's siblings and trace that into surviving relatives/cousins living in Poland because I plan to go there either this summer, or at the very least go in the summer of 2021. My father for whatever his reasons let his Polish heritage fade, and besides having a mother with a very toxic personality, I don't understand why. I guess having a 19 month old daughter really put this all into perspective for me. My wife in 100% Thai, and we teach our daughter Thai culture and language as much as we speak English....but what about my own Polish culture that I never really had? It is far far past time I began tracing those roots, even if I essentially have no known (Polish)family to share it with. I am also now pretty adamant that I will pursue a dual-citizenship/passport with Poland. I have been telling this to several friends and family today, and they all ask me " Why would you do that??" my only response is, "why the hell would I not??" I feel like if my dad was still alive he would be very proud. I am not sure if anyone on the board here has done this dual citizenship process before and how extensive it is. I have looked in to it, told briefly what it entails, and was quoted up to $4,000.00 in price from the genealogist I found the other day. That seems pretty high to me.

Hi Jan,

It is wonderful that you and your wife are exposing your young daughter to the language and culture of your wife’s ancestry. Being bilingual or trilingual always gives an individual an advantage over someone who speaks only one language. At her young age it is an ideal time for her to be exposed to a second language.

I would like to make it clear that not all of my opinions are those of an expert. My field of expertise by training includes the languages I taught, Latin, Classical Greek, Polish, and Spanish. Polish history and culture were an integral part of teaching the language and the literature so I suppose that I could admit to a certain degree of expertise in those two areas. But all those details are not really important to anyone except myself.

Anyhow, on to your folwark related question. Point #1: It was Antoni’s wife Joanna and her parents (Józef & Rozalia) who lived (and worked) on a folwark. Point #2: Antoni’s parents and grandparents were peasant farmers who did not live and work on a folwark. Point #3: After 1864 none of the peasants in Russian Poland aka The Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) were serfs. By a decree of the Czar in 1864 all the serfs in Russian Poland were emancipated. The emancipation also promised land reform with the hope for land ownership but the land reform never came to pass. Instead the number of landless peasants actually increased from 220,000 in 1870 to 849,000 in 1891. So much for the promise of land reform. It was a hunger for land, which could not be satisfied for many peasants in Russian Poland, which was a prime factor in motivating the massive immigration of Polish peasants to the USA from 1890 until the beginning of WWI.

I take it that so far you have not located the ship’s manifest for Antoni and/or Joanna’s arrival in the States. If, as earlier posts indicate, Antoni left for New Jersey first and Joanna followed two years later you would need to search for two maifests. It was quite common for families from Russian Poland to immigrate in stages. First the husband would immigrate, find a job and save enough money to pay for the passage of his wife (and children) later. This appears to have been the case for Antoni and Joanna. Without locating the manifests it cannot be determined what port of embarkation was used in Europe. Russian Poland was land-locked. Two common ports used by Poles from that region were Hamburg and Bremen in Germany, although other ports were also possible. Instead of permission from a member of the nobility (szlachta) Antoni would have needed papers which proved that he had completed military service or that he was not part of the quota for the area where he lived.

I can understand your sentimental reasons for seeking Polish citizenship and there was a brief time when I considered getting dual citizenship (I would have no trouble demonstrating my Polish ancestry since both my paternal and maternal ancestors are Polish—my dad was born in Poland and although my mom was born in Chicago, both her parents were born in Poland.) However, I decided that the effort would not bring me tangible practical advantages which would justify the cost and the effort. So that never happened. Anyway, it seems that you are a bit farther removed from “the old country” than I so I have no advice to offer on that score.

As long as you seem to be into reading about Poland I would recommend for your consideration Norman Davies’ two volume history, God’s Playground: A history of Poland.

Poland was/is made up of various regions which differed from each other in traditions, vocabulary, accent, building style, traditional attire, etc. Attached is a map showing the various “ethnic” regions found in Poland. Here are two links which show the traditional garb of the Podlaskie region. In Polish:
https://etnograficzna.pl/stroje-ludowe-stroj-podlaski-nadbuzanski/ and in English (with other regions included): https://lamusdworski.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/polish-costumes-overview/

Wishing you continued success and unflagging enthusiasm,

Dave

Thanks very much for all the added info and brief history Dave! I am ordering the book you recommended and looking into a really great pictorial history book as well. Would there be one you(or anyone else reading this) recommend? There must be quite a few, but I would love to know if some are much better than others, before I order.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

dnowicki — Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:58 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:58 am

sirdan wrote:

Ouch, i did not notice polish record.
However, Balo surname still sounds little strange to my ears. I mean, it resembles some eastern words. I am just trying to match things and get a backround of the story. There are so many surname variants on US censuses. That means, enumerators had difficult time to understand Antoni speech. What if Balo family was speaking some of polish dialect.

After little search learned that there was (still exists probably) podlaski language. This dialect is a mix of polish, belarussian and ukrainian, maybe lithuanian. So, right, Balo might be origin surname of locals in podlasie area.

Hi Sirdan,

Often the variations of both Polish surnames and given names, especially in the first quarter of the 20th Century, were the result of the fact that the enumerator was not familiar with the sounds of the Polish language and did not understand the language. Thus, even a person who had clear diction and spoke “high class standard” Polish would not necessarily be understood by the enumerator. Usually when the enumerator was not of Polish descent the spelling of names can be exceedingly strange. I took a quick look at the 1900, 1905, 1915, & 1920 censuses. As far as I can see, the only enumerator who was likely to understand and/or speak Polish was Hyman Cohn (in the 1915 census), who was obviously Jewish and possibly either born in Poland or the descendant of parents who were born in Poland. It is no accident that he was able to provide a better return than is found in the returns for the other years. I usually find it helpful to understand the dynamics of a return by considering who was the enumerator. The other variant is the individual who provided the information. Unfortunately, that information is not found until the 1940 Federal Census. The bottom line is that one should not expect too much from census returns.

Dave

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

sirdan — Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 pm

Author: sirdan

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 pm

Ouch, i did not notice polish record.
However, Balo surname still sounds little strange to my ears. I mean, it resembles some eastern words. I am just trying to match things and get a backround of the story. There are so many surname variants on US censuses. That means, enumerators had difficult time to understand Antoni speech. What if Balo family was speaking some of polish dialect.

After little search learned that there was (still exists probably) podlaski language. This dialect is a mix of polish, belarussian and ukrainian, maybe lithuanian. So, right, Balo might be origin surname of locals in podlasie area.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

dnowicki — Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:22 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:22 pm

Jan_Barlow wrote:

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Tina Ellis — Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:50 pm

Author: Tina Ellis

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:50 pm

I like using this site to speak the words: https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=pl&tl=en&text=Bar%C5%82o

Tina Ellis

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:40 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:40 pm

Sophia wrote:

Jan_Barlow wrote:

So Sophia you are saying that since the 'l' without a diagonal line through it is not evident in the marriage records Barło, it cannot simply be meant as an Old Polish surname? Forgive my ignorance --but how do you actually pronounce Barło? I cannot find a good pronunciation website to type this in for an audio.

Jan,
I did not say that.
Best,
Sophia

P.S. The marriage record to which I was directing Sirdan's attention was posted on Wednesday by Karol. You sound as though you did not see it. Perhaps you should review the whole discussion and see what else you may have missed.

I scanned through all the messages and replies again. Right, I know that Adam Balo's marriage record is in Polish(I have been organizing them all in folders) and the surname is of course Balo. I was just confused to the difference with the pronunciation and/or origin or if there is difference between Balo and Bało or Barło. So are both considered Old Polish? I am sorry if I am repetitive in my clarifying questions. I am literally a fish without water when it comes to this!
Thanks for everything,
Jan

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Sophia — Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:32 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:32 pm

Jan_Barlow wrote:

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:21 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:21 pm

[quote="Sophia"]

sirdan wrote:

Hello!

Hi sirdan,
Perhaps you did not see it, but if you go back a page, you will see that Karol found the 1864 marriage record, for Adam Balo and Marjanna Zamejda. It is written entirely in Polish. The surname is Balo.
Best regards,
Sophia

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Oh... so then I am Hungarian....lol!

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:05 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:05 pm

This is really awesome news! I will also await for the records on the Balo family to come back from the State Archive. Karol told me it will take 1-2 weeks. Old Polish makes sense; just like Old English.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Sophia — Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:38 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:38 pm

sirdan wrote:

Hello!
While I am ethusiast of genealogy and i like read such professional detective work of the team, now let me comment on surname Barlo.

This surname was not shortened, as some russian metrical records prove. The "right way" to obtain original surname is to dig in as deep as possible into records. We have russian records here only. It would be necessery to get polish record with the surname written on it. To avoid deforming by russian translation.

There are some of my thoughts about where the surname could come from:
Balo - simply as it, it is Hungarian surname. There are many hungarian names in Poland, but, never heard of Hungarians in Podlaskie, hmm. There are people living with such surname though in Podlasie. Forgetting hungarian heritage, originally polish would be Bało.
Barło - this is old polish. Today it means berło which is scepter.
Bałło - quite hard to pronounce Gryf (Griffin) coat of arms was given to Bałła/Bałło family in XVIII century. There is not much information on that on internet. Surname ending is similar to lithuanian Jagiełło or other ruthenian -o ending.
Also surname Bałon/Balon exists.

Hi sirdan,
Perhaps you did not see it, but if you go back a page, you will see that Karol found the 1864 marriage record, for Adam Balo and Marjanna Zamejda. It is written entirely in Polish. The surname is Balo.
Best regards,
Sophia

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

sirdan — Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:40 pm

Author: sirdan

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:40 pm

Hello!
While I am ethusiast of genealogy and i like read such professional detective work of the team, now let me comment on surname Barlo.

This surname was not shortened, as some russian metrical records prove. The "right way" to obtain original surname is to dig in as deep as possible into records. We have russian records here only. It would be necessery to get polish record with the surname written on it. To avoid deforming by russian translation.

There are some of my thoughts about where the surname could come from:
Balo - simply as it, it is Hungarian surname. There are many hungarian names in Poland, but, never heard of Hungarians in Podlaskie, hmm. There are people living with such surname though in Podlasie. Forgetting hungarian heritage, originally polish would be Bało.
Barło - this is old polish. Today it means berło which is scepter.
Bałło - quite hard to pronounce Gryf (Griffin) coat of arms was given to Bałła/Bałło family in XVIII century. There is not much information on that on internet. Surname ending is similar to lithuanian Jagiełło or other ruthenian -o ending.
Also surname Bałon/Balon exists.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:24 am

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:24 am

OHH trust me $4,000 is A LOT here too! I can't imagine most people would ever pay it, unless they just charge a credit card.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

marcelproust — Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:18 am

Author: marcelproust

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:18 am

Jan_Barlow wrote:

Yes Karol he lives in Poland!!

4000 USD is really a lot here! that is unfair!

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:03 am

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:03 am

Yes Karol he lives in Poland!!

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

marcelproust — Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:22 am

Author: marcelproust

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:22 am

Jan_Barlow wrote:

4 000 USD???????? That is crazy. For what?????? Does this genealogist live in Poland???

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:40 pm

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:40 pm

Hi Dave,

Thanks for all the advice and info! So in your expert opinion, I want to clarify for myself. Antoni and Johanna, Antoni's Parents, and his parents were all serfs working on this large farm(we are talking 3 generations at this point!). The way I have understood this for the past day is that all of these ancestors of mine were in a nutshell--slaves. Either Antoni and Johanna escaped or they were set free by their Lord. Do I have this right? or are the definitions and descriptions I have been reading up on serfdom(particularly in Poland) paint a worse picture than what actually occurred? I can't even imagine that they earned or saved any kind of money for even a passage on a ship. Let alone migrate who knows what kind of distance to even make it to a port. All I can think is that if they didn't do what they did, my brother and I wouldn't exist.
Originally a few weeks ago, my ultimate goal was to find my last name, and hopefully reach a few generations back. But quite candidly, after only a few days I started searching I realized I wanted much more. Ultimately I would like to find Antoni's siblings and trace that into surviving relatives/cousins living in Poland because I plan to go there either this summer, or at the very least go in the summer of 2021. My father for whatever his reasons let his Polish heritage fade, and besides having a mother with a very toxic personality, I don't understand why. I guess having a 19 month old daughter really put this all into perspective for me. My wife in 100% Thai, and we teach our daughter Thai culture and language as much as we speak English....but what about my own Polish culture that I never really had? It is far far past time I began tracing those roots, even if I essentially have no known (Polish)family to share it with. I am also now pretty adamant that I will pursue a dual-citizenship/passport with Poland. I have been telling this to several friends and family today, and they all ask me " Why would you do that??" my only response is, "why the hell would I not??" I feel like if my dad was still alive he would be very proud. I am not sure if anyone on the board here has done this dual citizenship process before and how extensive it is. I have looked in to it, told briefly what it entails, and was quoted up to $4,000.00 in price from the genealogist I found the other day. That seems pretty high to me.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

dnowicki — Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:39 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:39 pm

Jan_Barlow wrote:

Yes Karol and I have been in contact, and I want to publicly thank him, and again as well as all the others that have helped contribute to me finding my ancestry! I still find it strange that the surname Balo does not come up in any of my other searches in databases. I search the name Balo, and will come up with Balinski, Belkowski, Balicki, Brokowski, etc etc., but I have never come across a Balo. I have asked Karol about this(I know he just hasn't had the chance to reply) but I am very curious about any info on the origin of Balo.

Hi Jan,

Balo and the alternate spelling Ballo do appear in the databases on Genetyka for woj. podlaskie, just not anyone with that surname from the parish of Bakałarzewo is listed there. The indexing of records is done by volunteers and thus far the only records from that parish which have been indexed are marriages for 1808-09. Basically this means that one must do research in a more old fashioned way—by searching for earlier records by using information contained in later records. This is what was done after the marriage of Antoni and Joanna was found by Sophia. There is an option available to find earlier records without depending on contacting the archive in Sulwaki. Family Search filmed records from Bakałarzewo and those records have now been digitized and are available online with the restriction that your computer must be used at either a Family History Center or an affiliated public library. Here is a link to the Family Search catalog: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/93480?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Early on you wrote about the high quote for research you received from a genealogist who wanted to do the research for you. By using the records on Family Search you can accomplish the research on your own only spending your time and money for gas to get to a Family History Center or public library. Granted that there is a learning curve involved with doing your own research but there also is a level of satisfaction that comes from your DIY effort. The copies available on Family Search are of the records housed in the archive in Sulwaki, where the records were originally filmed. It is just another option available to you.

Whoever told you that Balo was a translation from Russian had the concept backwards. For all the parties involved in the creation of the civil record Polish was their primary language. The Russian form of Balo in the record is a translation of the Polish, not vice versa.

Should you decide to go the DIY route you’ll find many kind and generous participants on the forum to aid you along the road of discovery. To make that road as interesting and instructive as possible you’ll find that there are many tools available which can make the journey of discovery as profitable as possible. A final point...Although Wikipedia can be helpful there are other resources which often are much more geared to genealogy research. A case in point is the way Wikipedia describes a folwark—Folwark (German: Vorwerk; Lithuanian: Palivarkas) is a Polish word for a primarily serfdom-based farm and agricultural enterprise (a type of latifundium), often very large. I personally find explaining an unknown term by using another unknown or little known term to be a poor method of pedagogy. Latifundium is a word not found in Golden Age Latin of the Roman Republic, but does not appear until the Silver Age Latin of the Empire when it is found in the writings of Pliny and of Seneca. For anyone who has not read Seneca or Pliny the use of latifundium would seem to provide no great understanding of the term folwark. It is seldom that I criticize the use of a Latin term since I’ve spent the past fifty-nine years studying and teaching the language but the fact remains that there are better ways to convey the meaning of folwark to English speakers. William “Fred” Hoffman compiled a glossary for the PGSA which provides a much clearer explanation. Here is the link to his glossary: https://pgsa.org/polish-history/translated-descriptions-of-polish-villages-and-provinces/glossary-of-unfamiliar-terms/ Personally, I find the description of a folwark as a manorial farmstead to be dead on accurate and easily understandable in American English without referring to a relatively uncommon Latin word.

But, enough of soapbox time.

The main point I wish to convey is that looking at the various options available to you for your quest should help you to determine how you wish to reach your ultimate genealogical goal. Of course, the decision is yours.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Jan_Barlow — Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:04 am

Author: Jan_Barlow

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:04 am

Yes Karol and I have been in contact, and I want to publicly thank him, and again as well as all the others that have helped contribute to me finding my ancestry! I still find it strange that the surname Balo does not come up in any of my other searches in databases. I search the name Balo, and will come up with Balinski, Belkowski, Balicki, Brokowski, etc etc., but I have never come across a Balo. I have asked Karol about this(I know he just hasn't had the chance to reply) but I am very curious about any info on the origin of Balo.

Re: Trying to find Barlow real surname

Sophia — Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:31 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:31 am

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Sophia,

The short answer to your question regarding records held in the parish of St. James the Apostle (św. Jakuba Apostoła) in Bakałarzewo is “No” according to the parish website from the Diocese of Elk: http://diecezjaelk.pl/bakalarzewo-parafia-p-w-sw-jakuba-apostola/

The parish holds baptism records from 1837, although some years are missing, and marriages from 1905, and deaths from 1914.

The longer question is what records are considered “originals”. I’ve recently thought that it could be helpful to examine the anatomy of the formation of the civil registration records in Russian. I’ve come across some records from the parish of Chodecz from the late 19th and the early 20th Centuries which clearly exemplify the process by which the civil registration records were produced. More about that later if it is a topic of interest.

Hope you are enjoying the hunt.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Indeed, I did enjoy the hunt! Now I think I will step away, and let Karol and Jan continue with the Balo search.
I would be very interested in your thoughts on original vs. duplicate church books. Maybe we can open a new thread for it?
Best,
Sophia