PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: German census in Gniezno?

5cousins — Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Author: 5cousins

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi again Jeff,
Thanks for your better link to the photos. Yes, I agree that these pages are from civil registry books. In case you did not look around much with the links I sent, this link should pretty much answer your question:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/seria?p_p_id=Seria&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_Seria_delta=20&_Seria_nameofjsp=jednostki&_Seria_resetCur=false&_Seria_id_serii=114733&_Seria_cur=10
It shows, in the category of Ksiegi Meldunkowe, all of the available records from Pomorzany and none are before 1860. Also, none have scans online.
I do want to point out that I recognize there are two places, rather far apart; one is Pomarzany and one is Pomorzany (a difference of A versus O for the fourth letter) and that the one in Gmina Klecko is Pomarzany. However, the archives is using the splling Pomorzany, I don't know why, but clearly they mean the place you are interested in because these files are within Akta Gmina Klecko. Confusing. But still I think you've got your answer.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia

Additional comment: I wish I could find a better phrase than calling these "civil registry" books, because "civil registration" is a phrase used when the government collected vital information (births, marriages, deaths) which practically mirrors the function of church registration of those same events. These pages you have are from a registry, for a given city, a list of inhabitants showing who lived where and some data about them. Can someone who is reading this provide the correct term, please?

Hi, Sophia. I did look at the other links you sent, but I have not figured out how to use the szukajwarchiwach site yet. I need to spend some time on it. But the latest link you sent makes things much clearer. Yes, Pomarzany in Kłecko is where they lived. I have other records that confirm that.

And yes, you have answered my question. The data in the documents makes a lot more sense knowing that it is a registry of inhabitants (Seenliste), not a census. I was not aware of this type of registry. I'm trying to learn more about that now. I hope they will all be digitized soon, but I may need to find a genealogist in Gniezno in the meantime.

Thanks so much for all your help,
Jeff

Re: German census in Gniezno?

Sophia — Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:50 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:50 pm

5cousins wrote:

Thank you, Sophia. My apologies for the bad dropbox link. I assumed it was publicly viewable but I guess I did not test before posting. Here is a better link (google photos, appears to be publicly viewable):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ECLuXAeQqGqWnDhZ8

I appreciate the explanation of the civil registration. I see that there are notes regarding people moving away, so that must be what we have here.

Jeff

Re: German census in Gniezno?

5cousins — Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:39 pm

Author: 5cousins

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:39 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi Jeff,
I looked at the image you posted (I did not look at documents in your Dropbox link, as it did not let me in). The document you have may be a census, or it may be from civil registration books. In Polish archives the phrase for registration books is "księgi meldunkowe."
Here is the Polish archives description of their holdings of "akty gminy" for Klecko; they show no images online.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/zespol/-/zespol/22426
Specifically, there is this info for Pomorzany:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/jednostka/-/jednostka/1892729 where they use the German phrase "Pomorzany Seelenliste" and the Polish phrase "Lista dusz" both of which (if taken literally) mean "list of souls" which rather reminds one of Nikolaj Gogol, but I digress. My reason for putting it here is to say that if you see the numbers 92/44/0/7/404 on your documents, then this is indeed the source.
My understanding of civil registration books is that, unlike a census which is a snapshot in time, they were a living document - - when you went somewhere to live, you registered there. Your information would be crossed out if you moved away. I think you could get a clearer explanation of it from Kmichael8 as to which type of document this is, if you re-post your question in the German translation thread here on the forum.
Best of luck,
Sophia

Re: German census in Gniezno?

Sophia — Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:34 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:34 am

5cousins wrote:

A friend of a distant cousin in Poland sent me these scans, and was nice enough to transcribe the relevant entries (this is my great grandfather with his family in Pomarzany, Kłecko, Gniezno county). They seem to be Prussian/German census records, but I have no citation information, despite asking my cousin to ask his friend. I know he found them at the archives in Gniezno.

I want to know: What, precisely, are these documents? If I can find the originals, I can verify dates, source information, etc., and maybe find more documents.

The first page is attached to this post. You can view the other scans here:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Gniezno%20question

Doc1 appears to be from 1864-1869

Doc2 from around 1873

akta gminy Klecko - Pomarzany: is the Word doc that was sent to me with an approximate German to Polish translation

Klecko translation.txt: my notes regarding people in these docs

Information on my ancestors:

Damazy Wojtkowski was my great grandfather. He was born in Pomarzany in 1864. I have baptism, marriage, and death certificates for him. His parents were Teodor Wojtkowski (b 1825, Pomarzany) and Katarzyna Bobrowska (b 1837, Bieławy). Teodor's parents were Marcin Wojtkowski and Julianna Hoffman (b 1797, Pomarzany). These people are all listed on these documents. If there is more info at the archives at Gniezno, I may be able to go further back than that.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I looked at the image you posted (I did not look at documents in your Dropbox link, as it did not let me in). The document you have may be a census, or it may be from civil registry books. In Polish archives the phrase for registry books is "księgi meldunkowe."
Here is the Polish archives description of their holdings of "akty gminy" for Klecko; they show no images online.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/zespol/-/zespol/22426
Specifically, there is this info for Pomorzany:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/jednostka/-/jednostka/1892729 where they use the German phrase "Pomorzany Seelenliste" and the Polish phrase "Lista dusz" both of which (if taken literally) mean "list of souls" which rather reminds one of Nikolaj Gogol, but I digress. My reason for putting it here is to say that if you see the numbers 92/44/0/7/404 on your documents, then this is indeed the source.
My understanding of civil registry books is that, unlike a census which is a snapshot in time, they were a living document - - when you went somewhere to live, you registered there. Your information would be crossed out if you moved away. I think you could get a clearer explanation of it from Kmichael8 as to which type of document this is, if you re-post your question in the German translation thread here on the forum.
Best of luck,
Sophia

German census in Gniezno?

5cousins — Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:39 pm

Author: 5cousins

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:39 pm

A friend of a distant cousin in Poland sent me these scans, and was nice enough to transcribe the relevant entries (this is my great grandfather with his family in Pomarzany, Kłecko, Gniezno county). They seem to be Prussian/German census records, but I have no citation information, despite asking my cousin to ask his friend. I know he found them at the archives in Gniezno.

I want to know: What, precisely, are these documents? If I can find the originals, I can verify dates, source information, etc., and maybe find more documents.

The first page is attached to this post. You can view the other scans here:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Gniezno%20question

Doc1 appears to be from 1864-1869

Doc2 from around 1873

akta gminy Klecko - Pomarzany: is the Word doc that was sent to me with an approximate German to Polish translation

Klecko translation.txt: my notes regarding people in these docs

Information on my ancestors:

Damazy Wojtkowski was my great grandfather. He was born in Pomarzany in 1864. I have baptism, marriage, and death certificates for him. His parents were Teodor Wojtkowski (b 1825, Pomarzany) and Katarzyna Bobrowska (b 1837, Bieławy). Teodor's parents were Marcin Wojtkowski and Julianna Hoffman (b 1797, Pomarzany). These people are all listed on these documents. If there is more info at the archives at Gniezno, I may be able to go further back than that.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff