PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:53 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:53 pm

Piotr Zelny wrote:

Last time, I’ve finally hunted the memories of Mieczyslaw Orlowicz, one of the most prominent polish excursionist, author of many guide books from the period of partitions as well as interwar times.

Here, my translation of a short fragment of these amazing memories of a young Orlowicz, this particular fragment is from the years 1888 – 1891 which he spent in the town of Dębica. It cast the light on the role and life of your mysterious Italian ancestor.

‘Another detail from Dębica that I still remember is the weekly fairs. Peasants in the vicinity of Dębica - as well as in other places in Galicia - still wore folk costumes. They came on small carts. Half of the goods they brought were sandstone blocks mined from the nearby hills of Subcarpathia, south of Dębica. They found eager buyers, both among builders and stonemasons. Due to these quarries, one of the exotic group among those coming to fairs were the so-called Talianie, i.e. Italians from Austrian Tyrol, speaking only a dozen or so phrases in Polish, who were hanging around Galicia looking for work, mainly as stonemasons at quarries or road construction. They had competitors in Gypsies, also most willingly hiring themselves for road works.’

Greetings
Piotr

Thanks Piotr. Orlowicz's account matches everything we've been speculating about, and gives them a special realness. I can just picture it now.

I'm assuming the Italian stonemasons, if they barely spoke Polish, kept largely to their own circle. Do you have any idea how long such a crew of road workers might have stayed in a single place? Would it have been weeks or months? And where might the workers have taken lodging, eaten their meals, attended church, etc.?

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:22 pm

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:22 pm

Last time, I’ve finally hunted the memories of Mieczyslaw Orlowicz, one of the most prominent polish excursionist, author of many guide books from the period of partitions as well as interwar times.

Here, my translation of a short fragment of these amazing memories of a young Orlowicz, this particular fragment is from the years 1888 – 1891 which he spent in the town of Dębica. It cast the light on the role and life of your mysterious Italian ancestor.

‘Another detail from Dębica that I still remember is the weekly fairs. Peasants in the vicinity of Dębica - as well as in other places in Galicia - still wore folk costumes. They came on small carts. Half of the goods they brought were sandstone blocks mined from the nearby hills of Subcarpathia, south of Dębica. They found eager buyers, both among builders and stonemasons. Due to these quarries, one of the exotic group among those coming to fairs were the so-called Talianie, i.e. Italians from Austrian Tyrol, speaking only a dozen or so phrases in Polish, who were hanging around Galicia looking for work, mainly as stonemasons at quarries or road construction. They had competitors in Gypsies, also most willingly hiring themselves for road works.’

Greetings
Piotr

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:35 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:35 am

I don't know why I didn't see this before, but I just read this on Wikipedia.

"It was not until the middle of the 19th century, the period of the Galician autonomy from 1867 to the outbreak of the World War I, that Krosno started to rise from the decline. The birth of Polish oil industry undoubtedly contributed to the notable and rapid increase of importance of the town. The first oil company started by Ignacy Łukasiewicz, Tytus Trzecielski and Karol Klobassa in 1856 and the refinery they erected in Chorkówka caused gradual inflow of foreign capital."

"Krosno is located in an oil bearing region. Surface seepage of oil was locally used (unrefined) in lamps as early as the 16th century. In the 19th century Ignacy Łukasiewicz a local pharmacist began exploiting the deposits from hand-dug wells, years before the drilling at Titusville, Pennsylvania which is usually said to be the beginning of modern petroleum development."

I think the date of the oil well is key, 1856.

Krosno must have been quite a focus of innovation and experimentation in the mid 19th century, and probably attracted industrialists from all over Europe.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue May 25, 2021 6:52 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:52 am

I asked my cousin in Poland to send me some pictures of Krosno, to see some of the architecture. I was hoping maybe she might capture some of the railroad pillars and other constructs we've been discussing.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue May 25, 2021 6:32 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:32 am

Piotr Zelny wrote:

Hi Starshadow,

I've got another information about Italian workers in the region of Krosno. It seems that they had been frequently employed on the huge construction sites, especially of the communication and transportation infrastructure. They worked on the construction site of the co-called Second Imperial Road from Żywiec through Sucha, Jordanów, Limanowa, Nowy Sącz, Jasło, Krosno Sanok to Lviv. The road was build in the years 1812 - 23 (1830). There is a manuscript about the course of construction 'Ubersicht der II Galiżischen Haupt Commerzial oder Karpaten Strasse' written by Austrian clerk from Nowy Sącz in 1823. The manuscript is kept in the library of Krakow Polytechnic.

It seems that the Italian construction workers were not so strange view in the Galician province. Hope, it may help in the future.

Best regards
Piotr

Thank you for this research Piotr. It's so amazing to learn about Galicia in that time. These clues are helping me get closer to solving this puzzle.

I have been busy comparing the ancestral trees of some of my Italian DNA matches (those who have trees), and am finding similarities between them. Hopefully they will point in the direction of finding my missing 3rd-great-grandfather. I am suspecting his surname may have been "Marcon". But that might change.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue May 25, 2021 6:05 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:05 am

Thank you Piotr, Sophia, and Dave. This has all been very enlightening. I appreciate it very much.

By the way, I believe the Italian National anthem likewise mentions Poland. What a coincidence.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Mon May 24, 2021 1:39 pm

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 1:39 pm

Hi Starshadow,

I've got another information about Italian workers in the region of Krosno. It seems that they had been frequently employed on the huge construction sites, especially of the communication and transportation infrastructure. They worked on the construction site of the co-called Second Imperial Road from Żywiec through Sucha, Jordanów, Limanowa, Nowy Sącz, Jasło, Krosno Sanok to Lviv. The road was build in the years 1812 - 23 (1830). There is a manuscript about the course of construction 'Ubersicht der II Galiżischen Haupt Commerzial oder Karpaten Strasse' written by Austrian clerk from Nowy Sącz in 1823. The manuscript is kept in the library of Krakow Polytechnic.

It seems that the Italian construction workers were not so strange view in the Galician province. Hope, it may help in the future.

Best regards
Piotr

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

dnowicki — Sat May 08, 2021 9:27 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:27 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi Starshadow and Piotr,
I have been enjoying reading this conversation, very much! Now, I wish to add one more Polish - Italian connection, and that is the Polish national anthem, "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela." It mentions Italy, (in the chorus, no less!) so if one were to sing all of its verses, one would hear the name of Italy many times.
I do not know the words to very many countries' national anthems, but I think you would have to search through quite a lot of them before you find any other country whose anthem mentions another country in its lyrics.
All the best to you both,
Sophia

Hi Sophia, Piotr, & Starshadow,

Although the Anthem mentions Italy it is more an historical footnote than a paean in praise of the Italian nation. The Italy in the song is neither ancient nor modern Italy. It refers to the Kingdom of Italy set up by Napoleon. Italy was just the starting point of the march of Dąbrowski’s Legions as part of their dream of the restoration of a free and independent Poland. After the Third Partition of Poland Jan Henryk Dąbrowski and other Polish patriots in exile hitched their cause to Napoleon’s rising star—only to ultimately find their hopes dashed. The attachment to Napoleon was part of the “My enemy’s enemy is my friend view of international politics. The Kingdom of Italy, much like The Duchy of Warsaw, was a French client state which came to an end after the fall of Napoleon. From that time until the unification of Italy with the capture of Rome in 1870 the Italian peninsula was composed of city republics and small independent states (like the Papal States). The Italy of the Polish National Anthem was Napoleon’s Kingdom of Italy, which only comprised some of northern modern Italy, not the Italy of the late 19th Century…No Tuscan or Sicilian style meals for the guys as they began their march...The Anthem, often known as Dąbrowski’s Mazurka, was composed as a marching song for his legions. It became the Polish National Anthem in 1927. During the first years of newly independent Poland there were several other strong contenders for the choice of a national anthem. Other strong contenders were the the Bogurodzica, allegedly composed during the 14th Century, the religious hymn, Boże coś Polskę, and the Warszawianka, a spin-off of France’s Marseillaise.

Like other marching songs (e.g. the Civil War era Mine Eyes Have seen… and the WWI song Over There the songs were a combo of beat and lyrics intended to, as was said during the Civil War era, “Get the men’s blood up.”

Besides the mention of Italy the Anthem also mentions Sweden in the 3rd stanza: “Jak Czarniecki do Poznania
Po szwedzkim zaborze…”
The 2nd stanza makes clear that it is Napoleon’s Italy from which the Legions march putting into practice lessons learned from Napoleon: Dal nam przyklad Bonaparte, Jak zwyciezac mamy

Personally, I think it was a good choice for an anthem. If it had been on American Bandstand, the contestants would have said: “I like it. It has a good beat...easy to dance to…” This comes as no surprise since the Mazurka is a lively dance tune.

Dave

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Sat May 08, 2021 3:44 pm

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:44 pm

Hi,

Sophia, you are right. I didn't realize it before, somehow. I wonder if Italians know about it, that we sing about Italy. I wonder if anyone is singing about us.

Starshadow, I like this legend about Queen Bona staying in Zręcin in 1526 which you have provided in previous posts. I do not know any other ruler veiled in so many legends, in our region. But I have not heard this one. Our region is the historic area of co-called Sanok Land, Krosno and Zręcin were also part of it. Queen Bona received the county of Sanok and many other counties, towns, villages and castles as her royal endowment. She managed and derived income from these areas to maintain her court, table and wardrobe etc. Therefore, in her Sanok estates (in the capital which was the town of Sanok), she founded a royal castle. However, she probably had never been here. I'm afraid that she had never been to Zręcin either. There are historians who determine the so-called itineraries of particular kings, queens and their courts etc. There are no historical sources confirming Queen Bona's stay in our region. There are, however, many legends telling about her fantastic adventures in Sanok and the surrounding area.

Some legends are based on real events. More or less true mouth-to-mouth stories, today we would call them gossips. For hundreds of years they have been deformed like in the children’s game of Chinese telephone.

Bona's royal retinue did not have to hide and she did not have to fear for her life, no one would raise a hand against the queen. The ruler was an almost holy person. Queen Bona was adored in the Sanok (Zrecin, Krosno) region. Bona went down very well in the history of the Sanok region. Her coat of arms (the serpent devouring Saracen) is one of the three components of the coat of arms of the city of Sanok. In 1526, she did not go to Hungary, plunged in war and chaos. In addition, in 1526 she was pregnant for almost a whole year, gave birth in November, and a few months later she became pregnant again.

The legend of Queen Bona in Zręcin is probably a distorted gossip about Isabella Jagiellon the daughter of Bona Sforza and king Sigismund I the Old. Isabella Jagiellon was the queen of Hungary. In the result of the civil war in 1551 she had to give up the Hungarian crown. She returned to Poland to her mother and father. In 1555, she moved to Sanok and lived in the castle, in February 1556 she moved to Lviv. Officially, she was in Sanok and Lviv to look after the royal property, but in fact to be as close to the Hungarian border as possible to quickly enter the country at the call of the Hungarian knighthood. So it happened, in September 1556 she left Lviv and entered Hungary.

In 1555 and 56 the whole area was buzzing with rumors about the exiled Hungarian queen, daughter of Queen Bona, who lived in Sanok in the castle and was secretly getting ready to enter Hungary. It seems that one of the rumors from Zręcin has survived for 500 years and is still alive. During these 500 years of playing the Chinese telephone, Isabella Jagiellon was exchanged to better known Bona Sforza and the route of her secret march from Lviv to Hungary to the route from or through Zręcin to Hungary (local patriotism of small fatherlands-regions is very strong in Poland), the date was also changed by 40 years from 1556 to the best known date in the Hungarian history, that is 1526 (the catastrophic disaster at the battle of Mohacs and breakup of the state). Except that, the general situation is correct and the 500-year-old rumor reflects the contemporary atmosphere of fear and danger that surrounded the exiled Hungarian queen, daughter of Bona.

It seems to me that we have managed to solve a little historical puzzle. But this Zręcin story will survive it. Everyone in Sanok believes that Bona had been to or even lived in the castle, even local history teachers teach the kids in this way despite of many museum lessons being organized in the castle.

Piotr

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Sophia — Fri May 07, 2021 7:20 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:20 am

Hi Starshadow and Piotr,
I have been enjoying reading this conversation, very much! Now, I wish to add one more Polish - Italian connection, and that is the Polish national anthem, "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela." It mentions Italy, (in the chorus, no less!) so if one were to sing all of its verses, one would hear the name of Italy many times.
I do not know the words to very many countries' national anthems, but I think you would have to search through quite a lot of them before you find any other country whose anthem mentions another country in its lyrics.
All the best to you both,
Sophia

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Thu May 06, 2021 5:34 pm

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:34 pm

Beautiful in every season

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Thu May 06, 2021 5:30 pm

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:30 pm

Honestly speaking, I have no idea about any other construction sites in the town of Krosno and its vicinity where the Italian stonemasons might have been employed. The life can write every scenario. However, there is only one fact, they were contracted to build the narrow-gauge railroads in the Carpathians because they were experienced in building such constructions in let’s say similar mountainous landscape. According to me, we may presume that they might have participated in construction works of another big and important for the whole region investments dated back to the 2nd have of the 19th c. which I’ve already mentioned. But that is all. I can’t state anything more, without sources it’d be over interpretation.

There are several old churches in Krosno, those the biggest had been built long before the 19th c. There are many buildings from the 2nd have of the 19th c. but anyone whose construction would indicate that it needed bringing stonemasons workers from the other end of the Austrian Empire.

The fact that you’ve discovered such revelation about your Polish family branch is really great success. This is very personal story and I guess, it might have been known just to closest family members. I’m waiting for my DNA test, will see what kind of revelation are there, haha.

Apropos the Queen Bona Sforza, I feel some kind of personal connection with her and profound gratitude to her as she had built around 500 years ago the place where I can work nowadays.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue May 04, 2021 3:49 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:49 pm

Thanks Piotr! This is all very fascinating. It really seems to match up with the story. Especially about the stonemasons from Trento Italy. And it could help explain a lot of things. I'm also wondering if those stonemasons may have been contracted to build anything else in Krosno. For example churches or other buildings.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

Piotr Zelny — Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 am

Author: Piotr Zelny

Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 am

Hi Starshadow,

your story seems to be like a brick wall situation. I’ve got some new clues for you. I hope they’ll help a bit or provide some explanation at least.

The 2nd half of the 19th c. is the time of very fast economic and industrial development of Galicia. The development was faster here than in many other Austrian lands. It doesn’t mean that Galicia was better developed than the others. Galicia just started from the bottom, typical agricultural country, the source of row materials for Austrian industry and market for the Austrian products. It seems like colonial relation between the heartland and a borderland.

However, the fast development was limited to particular territories of Galicia, especially to big cities like Lviv and Krakow as well as to a triangle situated between Krosno – Borysław – Przemyśl. The main branches of development were the oil industry and exploitation of Carpathian forests. The development of one branch generates development of many other branches. For example, exploitation of Carpathian forests was enabled owe to construction of railways crossing the Carpathian passes from north to south. It resulted in construction of numerous lines of narrow-gauge railroads connecting for the first time the pristine mountain valleys with the main railways. It enabled to transport the wood. The railway between Przemyśl (60 miles to Krosno near Zręcin) and Budapest was built in order to connect the fortress of Przemyśl with the Austrian heartland. The fortress was the biggest such construction in Austria and generally in central and eastern Europe. The exploitation of the Carpathian forests resulted in establishing many very modern steam lumber mills and so on, so on. Such fast development of this particular region (Krosno – Borysław – Przemyśl) needed many hands to work, non-qualified common workers as well as qualified specialists. So soon, there appeared many newcomers (workers), predominantly men, from other regions of Galicia as well as other Austrian lands.

Let’s narrow down our contemplation to the main subject-matter that is your family of Kurek/Wilk branch of Italian origin. The alpines regions of north-eastern Italy, especially Trento (southern Tyrol) which belonged to Austria, were known of its stonemason specialists. They had been employing in construction sites in many different places (some of them built the West Point). They moved from one construction site to another, that was their life.

The co-partnership’s which invested in the narrow-gauge railroads in our (your and main) region brought the whole big group of specialists, stonemasons from the region of Trento (north-eastern Italy). They built stone pillars for wooden bridges, culverts, viaducts and other constructions in the Carpathian Mountains. Most of the constructions are forested nowadays but still one can find them when hiking while fragments of the narrow-gauge railroads are still in use for touristic purposes. Some of Italian stonemasons stayed in Poland and their descendants live here in the mountains to this day, the families of Mainardi (Cisna, Liszna), Podobrini (Cisna). The surname of your great…grandma was Wilk. It’s very popular surname, it means a wolf. Certain Antoni Wilk was employed as a worker in steam lumber mill in Majdan near Cisna in 1900 where the Italian workers stayed, too.

The coming of many young, strong men resulted in many short relationships and a number of illegitimate children.

The main construction sites in Krosno – Sanok – Przemysl – Cisna region where stonemasons specialists were needed:
- the railway line, co-called transversal railway from Czadca (Slovakia) to Husiatyn (Ukraine) through Krosno near Zręcin and Sanok, constructed between 1872 - 1884
- the line of Przemysl – Budapest through Sanok, constructed between 1869 – 1872
- local lines of narrow-gauge railroads had been built since the 90’s of the 19th c.
- the fortress of Przemysl, constructed between 1871 – 1914

Wish you lot of good lack in this cause, very interesting one,
Piotr

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:48 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:48 pm

Zofia Kurek's story is just as intriguing. Why was she in Bieździadka, so far away from home, when she had her son Grzegorz? Why wasn't she with the rest of her family in Zręcin? Grzegorz's baptism even notes she was "advena a Zręcin", "the stranger from Zręcin". Was she staying with friends or relatives? Or was she following someone? Perhaps Grzegorz's father? Was he the artist from Venice? The mystery deepens.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:30 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:30 pm

sirdan wrote:

Hi starshadow

Those metrical records are interesting mystery. I looked on mariage ban. It says "z profesji malarz" which means "his profession is a painter". Cant jugde if it is a description for an artist or a craftsman.

We have some luck though. It looks like Krosno metrical books BMD are transcribed and visible in geneteka. Here is a marriage between Franciszek Długosz and Katarzyna Zaydel (Zajdel) from 1823 https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=S&w=09pk&rid=S&search_lastname=d%C5%82ugosz&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Also there is Walenty born on 1825 (no parents listed though) and other one on 1840. There is Franciszek born 1793 (no parents too). Does it suits Your Długosz family? There might be more.

Thanks Sirdan. Those must be the same Długosz family I have. I believe the Walenty born in 1840 is mine. I will add those records to my tree.

There are so many theories which spring to mind about who was whom. Was Walenty really Jozefa's father? Or maybe he was friends with Jozefa's father? Were they both artists in Krosno?

I'm wondering if Poland went through a period of artistic expression in the latter 19th century. Perhaps they developed their own styles, or were influenced by the other Impressionist painters of Europe. Perhaps Krosno and other Polish cities had their own artistic "Montmartre" districts, like Paris did.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

sirdan — Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:06 pm

Author: sirdan

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:06 pm

Hi starshadow

Those metrical records are interesting mystery. I looked on mariage ban. It says "z profesji malarz" which means "his profession is a painter". Cant jugde if it is a description for an artist or a craftsman.

We have some luck though. It looks like Krosno metrical books BMD are transcribed and visible in geneteka. Here is a marriage between Franciszek Długosz and Katarzyna Zaydel (Zajdel) from 1823 https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=S&w=09pk&rid=S&search_lastname=d%C5%82ugosz&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Also there is Walenty born on 1825 (no parents listed though) and other one on 1840. There is Franciszek born 1793 (no parents too). Does it suits Your Długosz family? There might be more.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:47 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:47 pm

I guess I should post these also. These are the birth records of my 2nd-great-grandparents, Grzegorz Kurek (born 1861 in Bieździadka, but grew up in Zręcin), and Jozefa Wilk (born 1864 in Krosno). They married in 1885 in Krosno. They were the parents of my great-grandmother Wiktorya Kurek. They were both listed as illegitimate. I have no clues as to who their fathers were.

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:15 pm

Author: starshadow

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:15 pm

Here is a copy of an 1870 marriage bann from Krosno. The marriage was to be between my 2nd-great-grandmother Jozefa Wilk's mother Magdalena Wilk and Magdalena's fiancé Walęty Długosz.

As far as I can find out, all 3 banns were announced, but the marriage never happened. The only clue I can find is in the comments section, where I think it says "rozeszło sie". In other words, "they split". Jozefa was born in 1864, and would have been about 6 in 1870, so it's unsure if Walęty was her real father.

Walęty Długosz is obviously a Polish name, so I don't believe he would be my mysterious Italian ancestor. But what's even more intriguing, is his vocation is listed as "profesje malarz", which I think means professional painter. In other words an artist? But that establishes another link with the artist community in Krosno.

I might even wonder if Magdalena was an artist herself?

Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860

starshadow — Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:41 am

Author: starshadow

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:41 am

sirdan wrote:

Hi!
Here is an article about Italian artists hired in Krosno https://www.academia.edu/45305069/Dzia%C5%82alno%C5%9B%C4%87_artyst%C3%B3w_w%C5%82oskich_w_Kro%C5%9Bnie_w_XVII_stuleciu_w_Arty%C5%9Bci_w%C5%82oscy_na_ziemiach_po%C5%82udniowo_wschodniej_Rzeczypospolitej_w_czasach_nowo%C5%BCytnych_Artisti_italiani_nelle_Terre_sud_est_Della_Rebubblica_Polacca_nell_epoca_moderna_Praca_zbiorowa_pod_red_Piotra_%C5%81opatkiewicza_Rzesz%C3%B3w_%C5%81a%C5%84cut_2016

This paper says Tomasz Dolabella, one of the italian artists living in Krosno came from Venezia.

I doubt an italian farmer would come to galicia and settle here. If You suspect Italian heritage, it would come from a noble, a merchandiser or a soldier. Or finally some artist. The other question is - can autosomal DNA be detected after ancestror from XVII century

Thank you very much Sirdan. This is an excellent article. It surely matches with the other clues I'm finding.

I find it interesting that there was such a big artist community in Krosno. I have another document along that line which I'll post shortly.

As for the Autosomal DNA evidence, I have seen substantial segments going back at least 7 generations, to ancestors from the 18th century. As well as modern-day matches with distant cousins descended from those same common ancestors. So I suspect 17th century or earlier could show up too.

But the segment sizes which I'm finding in this case are much larger, and hint at a much more recent ancestor. They point to a 3rd-great grandparent. I believe someone who lived in the 19th century.