PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help determining an ancestor's name

dnowicki — Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:18 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:18 am

SpeedDemonND wrote:

Thank you dnowicki. I was able to find Jozef's father's death record and it does indeed list his name as Jozef as well. Also, I was able to locate his birth record at FamilySearch and it confirms the father is Jozef and not Jan.

Would you mind translating a word in the death record, attached here (right page, 4th entry from bottom): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0211.jpg

After “maritus derelictae” it looks like the number 2 and something else after it, and am wondering if this has any importance. Thank you again for your help.

Hi,

The words after maritus derelictae are 2do voto, which written in full in long hand would be secundo voto (by/from the second marriage [lit. second vow]), so, yes, it is valuable info for further research since Józef had been married prior to his marriage to Eudoksja and thus may have had children with his first wife. The entry can be translated as “Józef Gołębiowski, the husband by his second marriage of the surviving Eudoksja…”

Although you didn’t ask, the cause of his death was “tuber”—a tumor.

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave

Re: Help determining an ancestor's name

SpeedDemonND — Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:39 pm

Author: SpeedDemonND

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:39 pm

Thank you dnowicki. I was able to find Jozef's father's death record and it does indeed list his name as Jozef as well. Also, I was able to locate his birth record at FamilySearch and it confirms the father is Jozef and not Jan.

Would you mind translating a word in the death record, attached here (right page, 4th entry from bottom): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0211.jpg

After “maritus derelictae” it looks like the number 2 and something else after it, and am wondering if this has any importance. Thank you again for your help.

Re: Help determining an ancestor's name

dnowicki — Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:36 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:36 am

SpeedDemonND wrote:

I was hoping someone could help me with an issue finding an ancestor.

My ancestor Jozef Golebiowski married Katarzyna Kozaczek in 1889 in Semenów. Their marriage record is here (left page, 2nd row, first full entry): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201399/images/PL_1_301_1399_0411.jpg

To me, it seems pretty clear that Jozef’s father is listed as Joannis and his mother is Eudoxia Poniatyszyn.

However, I’ve found the birth records of several of Jozef and Katarzyna’s children, and they all seem to say Jozef’s father is named Jozef (Josephus), and NOT Joannis (Jan), as listed in this marriage record.

You can find those here:

1890 Michal (right page, 2nd row): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201399/images/PL_1_301_1399_0453.jpg

1894 Jan (left page, 2nd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0190.jpg

1896 Marya (2nd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0315.jpg

1899 Tekla (right page, 3rd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201681/images/PL_1_301_1681_0198.jpg

Unfortunately, Jozef seems to have been born in 1862, and it doesn’t appear there are any records to find online from his town of Semenów for this year, so I can’t see what that record says his parents’ names are.

So can someone explain why this marriage record might say why Jozef’s father is named Joannis (Jan) while his children’s birth records list Jozef’s father as Jozef (Josephus)? Could it be a simple mistake, and if so, does it appear likely at this point the father's name is Jan or Jozef?

Also, is there anything important in the bottom section of the marriage record? There seems to be a few names written (Josefa Golebiowski and Piotr Kozaczek) so I’m wondering if there is any pertinent info there, as Piotr is Katarzyna’s father’s name.

Hi,

The bottom portion of the record provides no help regarding the name of the father of the groom. It begins with the usual statement regarding the banns and then morphs into a hybrid Latin-Polish statement regarding the bride. The father of the bride, Piotr Kozaczek gives his permission for his underage daughter, Katarzyna to marry Józef Gołębiowski. That is the reason why the name of the father of the bride and the name of the groom both appear in that portion of the record. The entry concludes with the name of the assistant pastor who blessed the marriage, Antoni Wojnarowicz.

In an ideal world you could clarify the issue of the name of the father of the groom via the groom’s birth record. Since you say that birth records for the time of his birth are not available online an option would be to write to the archive where the Roman/Latin Rite records for Semenów are housed. It is quite possible that since the village is now in Ukraine the Latin Rite parish may no longer exist. Another possible approach would be to locate the death record of either the father or of the mother of the groom. Since both appear to be alive at the time of the wedding that would involve searching after 1889. The records of the children of Józef and Katarzyna will be of no help in a positive identification. Another possible approach would be to search for records of any siblings of Józef Gołębiowski.

Since the record you have is a civil transcript it was most likely composed by a scribe hired by the pastor of the parish. The scribe usually composed the finished product using notes provided by either the pastor or one of the assistant pastors of the parish, which makes an error regarding the name of the groom’s father a very real possibility. The same statement about the scribe would also apply to the birth records you have found, but statistically it is much less likely that the same error would occur in multiple instances, which makes the name in the marriage record more likely to be in error. However, the proof probably resides in records as described above, but, yes, an error is not just a possibility but a probability. A last resort would be to construct an argument which would justify the name you believe to be correct based on a logical interpretation of the available data.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Help determining an ancestor's name

SpeedDemonND — Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:00 am

Author: SpeedDemonND

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:00 am

I was hoping someone could help me with an issue finding an ancestor.

My ancestor Jozef Golebiowski married Katarzyna Kozaczek in 1889 in Semenów. Their marriage record is here (left page, 2nd row, first full entry): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201399/images/PL_1_301_1399_0411.jpg

To me, it seems pretty clear that Jozef’s father is listed as Joannis and his mother is Eudoxia Poniatyszyn.

However, I’ve found the birth records of several of Jozef and Katarzyna’s children, and they all seem to say Jozef’s father is named Jozef (Josephus), and NOT Joannis (Jan), as listed in this marriage record.

You can find those here:

1890 Michal (right page, 2nd row): http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201399/images/PL_1_301_1399_0453.jpg

1894 Jan (left page, 2nd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0190.jpg

1896 Marya (2nd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201633/images/PL_1_301_1633_0315.jpg

1899 Tekla (right page, 3rd row):
http://agadd.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201681/images/PL_1_301_1681_0198.jpg

Unfortunately, Jozef seems to have been born in 1862, and it doesn’t appear there are any records to find online from his town of Semenów for this year, so I can’t see what that record says his parents’ names are.

So can someone explain why this marriage record might say why Jozef’s father is named Joannis (Jan) while his children’s birth records list Jozef’s father as Jozef (Josephus)? Could it be a simple mistake, and if so, does it appear likely at this point the father's name is Jan or Jozef?

Also, is there anything important in the bottom section of the marriage record? There seems to be a few names written (Josefa Golebiowski and Piotr Kozaczek) so I’m wondering if there is any pertinent info there, as Piotr is Katarzyna’s father’s name.