PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

Trish — Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:05 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:05 pm

dnowicki wrote:

Trish wrote:

C J Schmidt wrote:

Thank you for this discussion.

In addition, to some of the suffixes listed, I have also seen: 'ow' and 'ich'.
In German (Bavaria) records to denote the feminine, 'in'.

Carla

Hi Carla,
I have also seen "owna" attached to a female's surname. Thank you for sharing the information that you have seen in records.

Have a great day!
Trish

Carla & Trish,

In Polish records ów and ich are actually not suffixes but are case endings required by the rules of Polish grammar. In Polish nouns are declined, which means that the endings change to show how the noun is being used in a sentence. Polish nouns use seven endings in the singular and seven in the plural. The only remnants of a declension in English are found in personal and relative pronouns. Two examples are the personal pronoun “he” and the relative pronoun “who”. When they are used as subjects the forms are “he” and “who”. When they show possession they change to “his” and “whose” and when they are the direct objects of transitive verbs or objects of prepositions their endings change to “him” and “whom”.

When you encounter ów and ich used to give the maiden name of a woman the surname is the object of the Polish preposition “z” meaning “from” or “of”. Many Polish surnames are adjectives but many are also nouns. The “ich” ending is used when the surname is adjectival and the “ów” is used when the surname is a noun. An example of a surname which is an adjective would be a name like Kowalski. So a woman’s maiden name would appear as “z Kowalskich” (from/of the Kowalski family. An example of a surname which is a noun would be a name like Woźniak. So a woman’s maiden name would appear as “z Woźniaków” (from/of the Woźniak family.

I hope that the above helps to clarify how those case endings operate rather than acts to confuse.

The ending Trish mentions, “-owna” is actually a suffix attached to the surname of an unmarried woman. The suffix for a married woman was “-owa”. Just to throw out another “suffix” which does a real number on a woman’s maiden name is
“-anka”. A woman whose family name was “Nyczak” would appear as “Nyczanka”.
Names as they appear in old records are seldom simple.

Dave

Hi Dave,
I love reading your posts. They are so informative! Thank you so much for always taking the time to explain things. I am learning so much.

Have a wonderful day!
Trish

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

dnowicki — Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:20 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:20 pm

Trish wrote:

C J Schmidt wrote:

Thank you for this discussion.

In addition, to some of the suffixes listed, I have also seen: 'ow' and 'ich'.
In German (Bavaria) records to denote the feminine, 'in'.

Carla

Hi Carla,
I have also seen "owna" attached to a female's surname. Thank you for sharing the information that you have seen in records.

Have a great day!
Trish

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

Trish — Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:45 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:45 pm

C J Schmidt wrote:

Thank you for this discussion.

In addition, to some of the suffixes listed, I have also seen: 'ow' and 'ich'.
In German (Bavaria) records to denote the feminine, 'in'.

Carla

Hi Carla,
I have also seen "owna" attached to a female's surname. Thank you for sharing the information that you have seen in records.

Have a great day!
Trish

Question about correct way to write a surname

C J Schmidt — Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:18 pm

Author: C J Schmidt

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:18 pm

Thank you for this discussion.

In addition, to some of the suffixes listed, I have also seen: 'ow' and 'ich'.
In German (Bavaria) records to denote the feminine, 'in'.

Carla

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

Trish — Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:45 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:45 pm

Sophia wrote:

Trish wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I have a question on the proper way to list a surname.

My. g.g.g.grandmother was listed as Marianna Dziedziela on my g.g.grandfather's (Dominik Broda) birth record. She was listed the same way on all of the birth records of her children. Her Baptismal record lists as Maria. Her parents were Simon Dziedzielewski and Veronica Strodowska.

Does Maria become Maria Dziedzielewska? Or does she stay as Maria Dziedziela?

Thank you for your advice.
Trish

Hi Trish and Barb,

My way of looking at the issue is to recognize that names can change, but names can also be written incorrectly. What you are trying to do, in researching your family, is to distinguish between these two circumstances.

Your question, Trish, is a good one: When a woman's name on a birth record differs from her name on her childrens' birth records, which is more likely to be correct? Generally, I would favor her birth record because it is a primary source. If the only thing you had in hand was her baptism record which gave her father's surname as Dziedzielewski, I would take her name to be Dziedzielewska. However.....

Looking at two of my usual sources on surnames, I am seeing that Dziedziela (while rare) is actually still in use in Poland, while Dziedzielewski is not.

http://www.herby.com.pl/indexslo.html (usually referred to as Professor Rymut's index) compiles the number of people using a surname, based on the 1990 census in Poland. Here are a few names beginning with "Dziedzie...".
Dziedziel 19
Dziedziela 405
Dziedzielewicz 1
Dziedzielewska 0
Dziedzielowski 1

Another resource, https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Dziedziela shows the distribution of surnames throughout current-day Poland. If you try using this to search for Dziedzielewski or Dziedzielewska, they are not found.

This makes me wonder whether there may be an error in the baptismal record. When you look at the church books in which you found her baptismal record, do you see any other records where the Dziedzielewski form of the name is used? Is the book in which you found her record an original book or a duplicate book? This may help you make your decision about which form of the name you want to use in your tree.

I hope this helps.

Sophia

Hi Sophia and Barbara,
Thank you for explaining all this about the surnames and given names.

To answer your questions, the records I am referring to came from familysearch.org. The church books were from Altmark. I did see Simon (Szymon) only listed as Dziedzielewski. When Maria married Jacob Broda, she was listed as Marianna Dziedziela. She was listed as Marianna Dziedziela on the birth records of her children. I have not yet found a death record for her. I believe I found a death record for her sister which lists her maiden name as Dziedziela.

Here is another interesting dilemma about surnames. Jacob Broda (born 1828 in Peterswalde, Stuhm) was born as Jacob Broda. When he married, he was listed as Jacob Brodda. All of his children were given the surname Brodda. Does the extra "d" mean anything? Was it to distinguish one clan from another clan?

Interesting note is that one son got married in a neighboring town, and was listed as Broda (only one "d"). He gave his children the surname Broda. Another son came to the USA as Brodda and changed his surname to Brodowski.

I have listed the people in my tree as they were listed on their baptismal records. On my family group sheets I added notations as to what they were listed on their marriage and death records. I also added notations of also known as (example: Broda, Brodda, Brodowski).

Thank you for your advice. Have a wonderful day!
Trish

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

Sophia — Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:51 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:51 am

Trish wrote:

Re: Question about correct way to write a surname

BarbOslo — Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:36 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:36 pm

Trish wrote:

Hi Trish,
Surnames change quite often. As you previously mentioned Broda was changed to Brodowski. Similarly Dziedziela was changed to Dziedzielewska. Maria to Marianna, etc. I always write the first name as it appears in the birth record. What does her death record say. Was her maiden name noted?
Have a nice day!
Barbara

Question about correct way to write a surname

Trish — Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:17 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:17 pm

Hi Everyone,

I have a question on the proper way to list a surname.

My. g.g.g.grandmother was listed as Marianna Dziedziela on my g.g.grandfather's (Dominik Broda) birth record. She was listed the same way on all of the birth records of her children. Her Baptismal record lists as Maria. Her parents were Simon Dziedzielewski and Veronica Strodowska.

Does Maria become Maria Dziedzielewska? Or does she stay as Maria Dziedziela?

Thank you for your advice.
Trish