PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

BarbOslo — Sat Apr 06, 2024 5:42 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 5:42 pm

Hello,
Michal Bizior was a widower when he married Antonina Kuzma on February 10th, 1850. He was 23 years old. This gives an estimated year of birth abt. 1827. His parents were Marcin and Magdalena nee Fabian.
His first wife was Anastazja Niemira. They married in 1844. Michal was then 18 years old. This gives an estimated year of birth abt.1826. His parents were Marcin i Madgalena nee Wojtaszek.
I suspect Michal's third marriage was in 1868. It would be good to check this.
Between 1824 and 1828 only one child named Michal Bizior was born (father Marcin). He is the one I mentioned earlier (the son of Marcin and Magdalena Wojtaszek born 1826).
So, in my opinion the correct parents' names are Marcin and Magdalena nee Wojtaszek. The mother's maiden name was written incorrectly in 1850.
It is highly likely that Michal, who was born in 1814, died the following year, on October 20th, 1815.
But .... Magdalena nee Fabian appears again in the Marcin death record in 1855 ????
In my opinion Magdalena Fabian / Wojtaszek probably is the same woman with two different last names for whatever reason.
-Barb

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:10 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:10 pm

Unfortunately, it is only listed in the index. The scan is not available online.
I pieced together which Katarzyna Bizior she was from her death record as Ciebien, Katarzyna in 1900, which lists her parents names and that her maiden name was Bizior.

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

BarbOslo — Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:34 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:34 pm

Do you have this marriage record?
Ciebień Jan and Bizior Katarzyna from 1870?

-Barb

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:14 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:14 pm

Sophia wrote:

Hi again,
I also notice on Lubgens a few additional children that I did not see before, because they are indexed with the surname spelled as BIZIUR. There is Wojciech in 1821 and Agnieszka in 1823, both with Magdalena Wojtaszek as the mother. There are two later births, with Marcin Biziur as the father, but a different mother, Antonina.
Just adding this in case you didn't already spot it.
Sophia

Sophia, yes, thank you. I did notice this as well. I believe the one married to Antonina Biczak was a different Marcin, with father Bartolomiej (not Lukasz). But thanks for pointing out the different spelling. That certainly helps!

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:06 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:06 pm

Barb, thank you very much.
My great-grandmother was Marianna Ciebien, who married Franciszek Adamowicz in 1893, died 1916.
Her parents were Jan Ciebien who married Katarzyna Bizior in Szczebrzeszyn in 1870.
Katarzyna died in 1900 - with the notation of her parents being Michal Bizior and Antonina Kuzma.
Michal Bizior a widower, married Antonina Kuzma in 1850.
And that is where I entered this rabbit hole...

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

Sophia — Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:00 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:00 pm

jacreding wrote:

Dear Sophia,
Many thanks for your information. I am very familiar with the Lubgens site. This is where the discrepancy in her surname seems to come from; as you saw, it isn't an easy answer. If these are indeed the same Marcin and Magdalena, for their first child, Michal, who is my 3rd great-grandfather, born 1814, the index indicates his mother is Magdalena Fabian - unfortunately I cannot see the original scan of his birth record as it seems to be missing for this year. Subsequent children (if these are the same two ancestors) she is listed with some variation of family Wojtaszek. I thought perhaps she could have been previously married before but it doesn't seem so. To make matters even more confusing, Michal seems to be married twice - in the first marriage record his mother is listed with Wojtaszek - the second marriage (where he is listed as a widower) his mother is listed with Fabian. And when Marcin dies, on his death record it lists his wife as Magdalena z. Fabian. It's all very mysterious and I suppose a mystery it will remain.

This particular marriage record I posted asking for the full translation, I did so because it seems a rather lengthy entry (compared to others on the nearby pages) so I was curious (optimistically) if perhaps there might be some mention of a reason for his mother's two surnames. I'm fairly good with deciphering common terms, but this entry is much more descriptive than a typical marriage record - but I do not read Polish well enough to read it all.

I do appreciate your time and response very much. Maybe someday I will be lucky to solve this particular ancestor's mystery!

Re: The mystery remains...

BarbOslo — Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:43 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:43 pm

jacreding wrote:

I think, unfortunately, I may never solve this mystery.

Let's start with what I know. My 3rd great-grandfather was Michal Bizior, married to Antonina Kuzma in Szczebrzeszyn.

Looking at the marriage of Michal and Antonina Kuzma, it states Michal's parents are Marcin Bizior and Magdalena z. Fabian.
I can find no record for a marriage between a Marcin Bizior and a Magdalena Fabian, but I do find a record of birth in 1814 for a Michal Bizior with these two parents listed. Unfortunately there is no scan as apparently the books for years 1814/1815 are missing.

I also find a death notice for a Marcin Bizior in 1855, and in looking at the scan, it indicates his wife was Magdalena z. Fabian, and his parents were Lukasz Bizior and Ewa Mroz.

In 1811, I find the marriage record I posted above, between a Marcin Bizior and a Magdalena Wojtaszek. Marcin is listed with parents Lukasz and Ewa Mroz. Same as the one with the death notice in 1855 with these same parents and a wife listed as Magdalena Fabian.

I found a birth notice for Magdalena Wojtaszek with the parents listed in the marriage record from 1811. No birth notice for any Magdalena Fabian.
There is only one death notice for a Magdalena Bizior - in 1856 - widow to a Marcin and...they list her birth surname as unknown. (insert facepalm here).

Found other children born around this time with parents Marcin and Magdalena--including two Michals--most listed with mother as z. Wojtaszek but at least three listed with mother as z. Fabian. My genealogist's gut tells me this is likely the same woman with two different surnames for whatever reason. They likely had a Michal in 1814 who died sometime before 1826 when the second Michal was born. Given that there are a couple random years with missing church books around this time, unfortunately, it looks like I will never know definitively.

So I think this mystery remains just that. A mystery.

Wielkie dzięki to everyone for your help, advice, and information.

Hallo,
I can try to look into this, but need more facts on the table. Can you share something about your 2nd great grandfather?
- Barb

The mystery remains...

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:25 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:25 pm

I think, unfortunately, I may never solve this mystery.

Let's start with what I know. My 3rd great-grandfather was Michal Bizior, married to Antonina Kuzma in Szczebrzeszyn.

Looking at the marriage of Michal and Antonina Kuzma, it states Michal's parents are Marcin Bizior and Magdalena z. Fabian.
I can find no record for a marriage between a Marcin Bizior and a Magdalena Fabian, but I do find a record of birth in 1814 for a Michal Bizior with these two parents listed. Unfortunately there is no scan as apparently the books for years 1814/1815 are missing.

I also find a death notice for a Marcin Bizior in 1855, and in looking at the scan, it indicates his wife was Magdalena z. Fabian, and his parents were Lukasz Bizior and Ewa Mroz.

In 1811, I find the marriage record I posted above, between a Marcin Bizior and a Magdalena Wojtaszek. Marcin is listed with parents Lukasz and Ewa Mroz. Same as the one with the death notice in 1855 with these same parents and a wife listed as Magdalena Fabian.

I found a birth notice for Magdalena Wojtaszek with the parents listed in the marriage record from 1811. No birth notice for any Magdalena Fabian.
There is only one death notice for a Magdalena Bizior - in 1856 - widow to a Marcin and...they list her birth surname as unknown. (insert facepalm here).

Found other children born around this time with parents Marcin and Magdalena--including two Michals--most listed with mother as z. Wojtaszek but at least three listed with mother as z. Fabian. My genealogist's gut tells me this is likely the same woman with two different surnames for whatever reason. They likely had a Michal in 1814 who died sometime before 1826 when the second Michal was born. Given that there are a couple random years with missing church books around this time, unfortunately, it looks like I will never know definitively.

So I think this mystery remains just that. A mystery.

Wielkie dzięki to everyone for your help, advice, and information.

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:04 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:04 pm

Dave, Thank you for this information. I thought I saw mention of Napoleon in there when I tried to decipher it myself, but then told myself I must be imagining it. I also saw something that looked like a question mark, which seemed odd to have in a record of marriage. Your explanation is incredibly interesting for me - so thank you again for sharing it.

[quote="dnowicki"]

jacreding wrote:

Hi,

Other than Magdalena’s birth record the information contained in the marriage record is the most accurate you are likely to encounter. The information found in a marriage record is one of the few times that a woman was actually present to provide the information. As a mother she was not present at the baptism of her children and did not personally provide the information. The information was provided by either the father or the sponsors AKA godparents and thus is really second-hand information. The same is true of a death record. There the information is usually provided by one of the witnesses unless the spouse of the deceased went to report the death.

The reason the marriage record is so long is because it was the form determined by Napoleon Bonaparte for use in the Duchy of Warsaw which was a French satellite state he created and which existed from after the Treaty of Tilsit in 1806 until the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo. The Duchy of Warsaw cease to exist after the Congress of Vienna in 1815. The exact wording of the records was modified (shortened) following the demise of the Duchy of Warsaw. The marriage record you posted is in the very verbose format of the Napoleonic long paragraph style.

Without dealing with the verbosity here is the info which will probably help to solve your quandary. The bride appears in the record as Wojtaszkowna, using the old feminine suffix for a single woman–owna. In contemporary usage her surname would be Wojtaszek. The record gives her father’s name as Jan Wojtaszek and he was present for the wedding. The record states that the bride was 17 years of age and provided a birth and baptism certificate from the Parish of Szczebrzeszyn. If you do the math and can locate her baptism record you’ll have another confirmation of her maiden name but in my opinion the name as provided in the marriage record should take precedence over versions found in later records.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Mystery solved...I think!

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:02 pm

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:02 pm

Barb, I think you just solved my mystery. Dziekuje bardzo!
I don't know how or why I never saw the Michal from 1826.
I have looked at that registry a million times.
Thank you thank you!

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

BarbOslo — Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:55 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:55 am

jacreding wrote:

Hi again,
I don't know your family, but look at this. Could Michal born in 1826 be your ancestor?

-Barb

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

dnowicki — Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:10 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:10 am

jacreding wrote:

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

BarbOslo — Sat Apr 06, 2024 9:36 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 9:36 am

Hi,
Can give you a full translation later, if you still want it. I sit with correct tasks for my students. Extracted the most important from this marriage record.

No.83
It happened in Szczebrzeszyn, on February 20th, 1811.

Groom: Marcin Bizior, he presented birth certificate extracted from the church in Szczebrzeszyn, a bachelor, 21 years old, a son of Łukasz Bizior and Ewa nee Mrozek, living with his parents in Kawęczyn.

Bride: Magdalena Wojtaszek, she presented birth certificate extracted from the church in Szczebrzeszyn, a miss, 17 years old, a daughter of Jan Wojtaszek and Małgorzata nee Piasecka, living with her parents in Kawęczynek.

This marriage was preceded by the three banns of marriage, on: February 1st,10th and 17th.

The witnesses related to the family:
Wojciech Bizior, 52 years old, living in Kawęczynek, the groom's uncle (father's brother)
Wojciech Piasecki, 50 years old, living in Kawęczyn , the bride's uncle (mother's brother)

Regards,
-Barb

Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:20 am

Author: jacreding

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:20 am

Dear Sophia,
Many thanks for your information. I am very familiar with the Lubgens site. This is where the discrepancy in her surname seems to come from; as you saw, it isn't an easy answer. If these are indeed the same Marcin and Magdalena, for their first child, Michal, who is my 3rd great-grandfather, born 1814, the index indicates his mother is Magdalena Fabian - unfortunately I cannot see the original scan of his birth record as it seems to be missing for this year. Subsequent children (if these are the same two ancestors) she is listed with some variation of family Wojtaszek. I thought perhaps she could have been previously married before but it doesn't seem so. To make matters even more confusing, Michal seems to be married twice - in the first marriage record his mother is listed with Wojtaszek - the second marriage (where he is listed as a widower) his mother is listed with Fabian. And when Marcin dies, on his death record it lists his wife as Magdalena z. Fabian. It's all very mysterious and I suppose a mystery it will remain.

This particular marriage record I posted asking for the full translation, I did so because it seems a rather lengthy entry (compared to others on the nearby pages) so I was curious (optimistically) if perhaps there might be some mention of a reason for his mother's two surnames. I'm fairly good with deciphering common terms, but this entry is much more descriptive than a typical marriage record - but I do not read Polish well enough to read it all.

I do appreciate your time and response very much. Maybe someday I will be lucky to solve this particular ancestor's mystery!

Re: Translation help for Polish record of marriage

Sophia — Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:13 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:13 am

jacreding wrote:

Dzien dobry, I kindly ask for assistance with the full translation of the attached marriage record.
I know it took place in 1811 between Marcin Bizior and Magdalena.
There is a bit of a mystery I am hoping to solve because the wife, Magdalena, has been listed in other records for this same family with the surname Wojtaszków - but in the birth of their first son and in the death of Marcin, she is listed with surname Fabianów. I cannot find a clear answer as to why the two different maiden surnames.

Any assistance in translating this document to see if it reveals anything about this mystery is most appreciated.

Hi Jacreding,

I know you are asking for a full translation, which I cannot do for you, but I can help you with a detail of Polish grammar as it affects surnames. One of the ways of giving a woman's name and indicating her maiden name is to tack an ending onto the maiden surname. You have two examples of that here, Wojtaszków and Fabianów. What you need to do is to recover the original (nominative case) form of the surname by subtracting the "-ów" ending and then by knowing what (if anything) to add back. I would suggest that these surnames are quite possibly Wojtaszko and Fabian but for better certainty you should rely on someone who is fluent in Polish. So, "Magdalena Fabianów" means Magdalena of the Fabian family.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Lubgens website:
https://regestry.lubgens.eu/

It contains an index for the church in Szczebrzeszyn. When I use it to search on the name Marcin Bizior, I do see the 1811 marriage record that you provided here. The Lubgens indexer shows the name of his wife as Magdalena Wojtaszek (so, perhaps not Wojtaszko as I was supposing). For some of the birth records, the indexer has extracted the names of the parents, so when I scan down the list of Bizior births and find a father named Marcin, I see an 1814 birth where the mother's name is Magdalena Fabian, an 1816 birth where Magdalena's surname is not indexed, an 1818 birth where the mother's name is Magdalena Woytasiówna (so the indexer did not subtract the grammatical ending), and an 1826 birth where the mother is indexed as Magdalena z Wojtaszków (again, the ending was left on).

All of this is to say, I see the problem you are having with her name. There is a possibility that this is simply an error in the record.

If someone reading this wants to translate your record, here is a link to the image that may be slightly easier to read:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/3cf8d120e678055de291fafd02da6be3a6315f3cfc35adb1a794a563d354e31b

Best of luck in resolving it,
Sophia

Translation help for Polish record of marriage

jacreding — Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:36 am

Author: jacreding

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:36 am

Dzien dobry, I kindly ask for assistance with the full translation of the attached marriage record.
I know it took place in 1811 between Marcin Bizior and Magdalena.
There is a bit of a mystery I am hoping to solve because the wife, Magdalena, has been listed in other records for this same family with the surname Wojtaszków - but in the birth of their first son and in the death of Marcin, she is listed with surname Fabianów. I cannot find a clear answer as to why the two different maiden surnames.

Any assistance in translating this document to see if it reveals anything about this mystery is most appreciated.