PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sun Oct 13, 2024 12:22 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 12:22 pm

I have just received the answer from "Stadtarchiv Sondershausen" where they say that there is no Thomas Zygmunt born on 7.12.1910 in Sondershausen.
So that leaves only the possibility that his place of birth is somewhere in Germany of 1910 including parts of today's Poland which was spelled closely to Sonderschaesen (this is the spelling in the marriage register uploaded above). Despite several hours of research, I found no place corrsponding to the requirement.

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sun Aug 04, 2024 10:05 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 10:05 am

No. 45 Wieruszów
It happened in the village of Wieruszów on March 20th/April 1st, 1883, at 11 a.m.
Appeared personally Tomasz Zygmunt, a carriage driver, 25 years old, living in the village of Wieruszów in the presence of Grzegorz Piętak, a carriage driver, 50 years old and Antoni Rosa, day laborer (?), 60 years old, both living in the village of Wieruszów and presented Us a newborn male child, informing that the child was born in the village of Wieruszów on March 18th/30th of the current year, at 12 o'clock at noon to his legal wife, Julianna nee Piętak, 19 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, the child was given the name Franciszek, and her godparents were: Grzegorz Piętak and Anastazja (surname missing).
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses, who were illiterate, and it was signed by Us only.
Priest Ilkowski, the administrator of the Wieruszów parish

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:46 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:46 am

Hi,
I wrote earlier today to a German whom I helped earlier. I asked if he could help me find Thomas's birth record.
Translating Franciszek's birth record asap.
-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sun Aug 04, 2024 7:08 am

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 7:08 am

No, I have no idea if Tomasz had other siblings than Antonina but I don't think so. I have written to the archives in Sondershausen to check Tomasz' place of birth one month ago but have not got an answer yet.
Indeed what you describe is possible. Franczisek is a farmer in the Russian part of Poland, has difficulty to feed his family and decides to emigrate in 1909 or 1910. After WWI, the place he has been living in (Pieczyska) is no more Russian but Polish so he returns.

What seems strange to me is :
1) If he wants to make more money as industrial worker, why doesn't he go to Silesia's coal mines ? It is in Germany too but people speak Polish there and it is much nearer to Pieczyska than Sondershausen which is in Thüringen in the middle of nowhere and not really an industry town (I have visited this region a few years ago).
2) If he left the farmer job because of money, why did he return back to the same place he left for economical reasons?
3) Tomasz emigrated to France but spoke Polish and was considered by the French authorities as Polish , not German.

I guess we won't know unless Sondershausen sends me an answer.
I have still a question if you don't mind. I am really struggling with the Russian handwriting. If you are used to it, could you please translate the birth certificate of Franciszek Zygmunt ?

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sun Aug 04, 2024 5:28 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 5:28 am

TomasV wrote:

Yes, this was the first I looked at.
But Sondershausen is quite far from Sonderschaesen and the cleric in France must have looked at some document to write the place of birth - he couldn't have made this up.
Besides it doesn't make much sense that Franciszek Zygmunt (a farmer !) has a daughter in Pieczyska in 1909 , then moves 600 km in the middle of Germany where he has a son 1 year later in 1910 and then returns again back to his fields in Pieczyska where he is still in 1934 and beyond.
I believe that it is more probable that there is a place in Poland which was called Sonderschaesen in 1910 and which is called something else today. It is like Wroclaw which is today in Poland but which was in Germany before and called Breslau.

Hi,
In my opinion, Sondershausen and Sonderschaesen are the same place.
They were married in 1908, and had their first child (Antonina) in 1909. She was born in Pieczyska. After that they went to Germany. They could live there for a few years before returning to Pieczyska. Note that none other than Antonina was born in Poland. Do you know if they had more children in Germany? Although Franciszek was a farmer, it was not easy to support the family at that time. Many people went to Germany, France, Belgium to make money in industrial areas.
I have a similar situation in my husband's family. His grandfather was born in 1913 in Germany. Some of his siblings were born in Poland and some in Germany. The family went to Germany in 1900 and returned to Poland in 1927. They were also farmers.
I don't know if the same thing happened to your family, but I strongly believe it.
Regards,
-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:51 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:51 pm

Yes, this was the first I looked at.
But Sondershausen is quite far from Sonderschaesen and the cleric in France must have looked at some document to write the place of birth - he couldn't have made this up.
Besides it doesn't make much sense that Franciszek Zygmunt (a farmer !) has a daughter in Pieczyska in 1909 , then moves 600 km in the middle of Germany where he has a son 1 year later in 1910 and then returns again back to his fields in Pieczyska where he is still in 1934 and beyond.
I believe that it is more probable that there is a place in Poland which was called Sonderschaesen in 1910 and which is called something else today. It is like Wroclaw which is today in Poland but which was in Germany before and called Breslau.

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:11 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:11 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondershausen

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:09 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:09 pm

Look at this:
https://pl.mapy.cz/zakladni?source=osm&id=52525&x=10.7848734&y=51.3551633&z=11

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:01 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 5:01 pm

BarbOslo wrote:

Wiktoria Kubiak was born on 16.12.1887 in Chruścin parish Mieleszyn
Franciszek Zygmunt was born on 30.03.1883 in Wieruszów parish Wieruszów
Franciszek Zygmunt and Wiktoria Kubiak, 29.01.1908 parish Wieruszów

Regards,
-Barb

Thanks again. Perhaps you could help me with a conundrum that I have been struggling for a few months.
According to the marriage act of Tomasz Zygmunt (son of Franczisek Zygmunt) , Tomasz Zygmunt was born on 7.12.1910 in SONDERSCHAESEN - Germany . Yet there is no such town in Germany.
However considering that Tomasz' older sister Antonina was born in 1909 in Pieczyska and Tomasz' parents are still living in Pieczyska in 1934, this place "Sonderschaesen could actually be somewhere in Poland but the name has changed.
Hence the question : does anyone know where this Sonderschaesen could be?
I try to join the marriage act.

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:21 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:21 pm

TomasV wrote:

And please don't bother with translations - I speak Czech and this is mostly enough to understand written Polish.
You have already helped me tremenduously.

Hallo Tomas,
Only dates for the three of them:

Wiktoria Kubiak was born on 16.12.1887 in Chruścin parish Mieleszyn
Franciszek Zygmunt was born on 30.03.1883 in Wieruszów parish Wieruszów
Franciszek Zygmunt and Wiktoria Kubiak, 29.01.1908 parish Wieruszów

Regards,
-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:58 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:58 pm

TomasV wrote:

A (probably) stupid question. I cannot read the Franciszek birth record provided by your link.
I guess that I should click on "SCAN" but when I do that, I get a message that "You cannot access this page".
Am I doing something wrong ?
Besides I just realised that these records are probably written in Russsian because before 1918, there was no Poland.

Hi
Yes, they forgot to link this record. I found it anyway.

https://ibb.co/bKznGDK

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:35 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:35 pm

And please don't bother with translations - I speak Czech and this is mostly enough to understand written Polish.
You have already helped me tremenduously.

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:33 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:33 pm

A (probably) stupid question. I cannot read the Franciszek birth record provided by your link.
I guess that I should click on "SCAN" but when I do that, I get a message that "You cannot access this page".
Am I doing something wrong ?
Besides I just realised that these records are probably written in Russsian because before 1918, there was no Poland.

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:33 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:33 pm

I will translate and write all dates shortly.

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:32 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:32 pm

Here is this one. No. 69. Wiktoria Kubiak.
https://ibb.co/8Xmcthj

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

TomasV — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:16 pm

Author: TomasV

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:16 pm

BarbOslo wrote:

Here is Franciszek's birth record from the parish of Wieruszow (1883):

https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=05ld&rid=B&search_lastname=zygmunt&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=1883&to_date=1883

-Barb

Barboslo you are awesome !
I would have never imagined that somebody could have found so much so fast.
Actually there is an additional information I could have given but I thought that it was irrelevant.
The marriage act in France was between Tomasz Zygmunt (son of Frantiszek Zygmunt) and Anna Sztermer.
Anna Sztermer was born in Wieruszov (!) but I thought that when 2 Poles meet in France where they have been living for a decade, there is no chance that they actually come from the same region
Thousands thanks !

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:08 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 1:08 pm

Wiktoria Kubiak was born in the village of Chruścin parish Mieleszyn in approx. 1887 (calculated from the age when she married).
Will check if I can find her birth record.

-Barb

Here is this one. No. 69.
https://ibb.co/8Xmcthj

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:45 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:45 pm

Here is Franciszek's birth record from the parish of Wieruszow (1883):

https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=05ld&rid=B&search_lastname=zygmunt&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=1883&to_date=1883

-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:36 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:36 pm

Here is the birth record for Antonina. Tomasz's sister. She was born in Pieczyska parish Wieruszow.
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=05ld&rid=2908&search_lastname=zygmunt&search_name=&search_lastname2=kubiak&search_name2=&from_date=1900&to_date=

Regards,
-Barb

Re: Looking for Franciszek Zygmunt

BarbOslo — Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:31 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:31 pm

Hi,
Here is the marriage record for Franciszek Zygmung and Wiktoria Kubiak from the parish of Wieruszów. You also have the names of both parents + scan.
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&search_lastname=zygmunt&search_lastname2=kubiak&from_date=1900&to_date=1911&exac=&rid=S&bdm=S&w=05ld
-Barb