PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Sun Nov 10, 2024 3:30 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2024 3:30 pm

This is great! Your directions are perfect--I was able to find it on the map.
I lost momentum for a few days but now I'm looking forward to getting back to work on this.
Thanks again!
Mary

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:31 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:31 am

I see from this marriage record that you are adding one more village to your family history, Małomin. I thought you might like to have a map showing all these places, so I found this:

https://polona.pl/item-view/c5454fdb-8ee3-4d4d-ac54-25ea8deb625b?page=1

To orient yourself, first look at the river and locate Włocławek. Now follow the main road, marked in red, up north to Lipno. From there, head east on another red road to Skempe (this is an alternative spelling for the Polish Skępe). Now go directly south, and you will see both Huta Skempe and Małomin. From there, look southeast and you will find Tłuchowo (there is also a Tłuchówko right nearby, but you want Tluchowo).

Enjoy!
Sophia

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:34 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:34 pm

Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was a separate section and index for marriages, but this makes sense. I completely missed the one on page 84. This will also help so much in future searches.
I am so grateful and humbled too by the assistance and expertise here. Thank you!

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:51 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:51 pm

KB773 wrote:

Hello again! I think I do need the image number.
I have spent this entire morning trying to find their marriage and now I’m hopelessly lost. Geneteka shows their marriage record as Record 3, so I found the third record in the Tluchowo 1843 book but it does not seem to match. Or maybe it does and I’m just not translating it correctly?
Next I went to the index in the middle of the book, and the index in the back of the book and searched for Kwiatkowski but I didn’t see any Marian Kwiatkowski marriage record.
Is the index only for births, not marriages? Are there marriage records in the book?
I am also trying to translate at the same time (I borrowed a copy of ‘In Their Words’ genealogist’s Polish/Russian translation guide to help me along) so it is extremely slow going.
My goal is to become independent in this research and not ask so many questions but wow this is hard work!
Mary

Hi Mary,

Sometimes it is very hard work! Other times, it sails along nicely. Let me end your long search for this one record: it is on image 64.

Now, let me help you understand the book. It is a book for one year only, 1843, and it contains birth records, then marriage records, then death records. The index you saw around the middle of the book was for births. The index you found at the end is for the deaths. The one index you missed, on image 84, is the one for the marriages. There you will find the record for Marian Kwiatkowski and note that his wife's name is written there as Angela (but you already knew that Angela and Aniela are the same name, the former being the Latin version and the latter being Polish) and her last name is spelled GAIEWSKA, with the letter I being substituted for the letter J, not surprising.

You may come across other ways for record books to be organized. Sometimes a whole book is births only (or marriages only, or deaths only) but multiple years, so then you want to try to find an index after each year. Some books have no indices at all.

Ask as many questions as you like on your way to researching independently. You'll get there!

Best,
Sophia

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

BarbOslo — Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:48 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:48 pm

Hi Mary,
It is pages 4 and 5 in the marriage section.

-Barb

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:00 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:00 pm

Hello again! I think I do need the image number.
I have spent this entire morning trying to find their marriage and now I’m hopelessly lost. Geneteka shows their marriage record as Record 3, so I found the third record in the Tluchowo 1843 book but it does not seem to match. Or maybe it does and I’m just not translating it correctly?
Next I went to the index in the middle of the book, and the index in the back of the book and searched for Kwiatkowski but I didn’t see any Marian Kwiatkowski marriage record.
Is the index only for births, not marriages? Are there marriage records in the book?
I am also trying to translate at the same time (I borrowed a copy of ‘In Their Words’ genealogist’s Polish/Russian translation guide to help me along) so it is extremely slow going.
My goal is to become independent in this research and not ask so many questions but wow this is hard work!
Mary

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:05 am

Author: KB773

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:05 am

Thank you! The page is very slow but I think it is working. I am going to give this a try to see if I can find it. I was worried the only copy was in Utah but now I see there are options. I will let you know if I get lost!

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:26 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 5:26 am

KB773 wrote:

I hope that I am not becoming a pest! I saw this in Geneteka and I think it might be a good match for the marriage record of my great x 3 grandparents. (Marian Kwiatkowski and Angela (Aniela?) Gajewska 1843, Record 3 from Tluchowo parish)
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=02kp&rid=S&search_lastname=kwiatkowski&search_name=marian&search_lastname2=gajewska&search_name2=angela&from_date=&to_date=
I know that the daughter (Franciszka Kwiatkowski) of the groom was born in Huta--is Tluchowo close to Huta? Or is this an unlikely match for her parent’s marriage record?
I think the record is only available on microfilm in Utah, but I am still a beginner, so if this sounds like a likely match and if there is another way to access this record, please let me know!
https://libcat.familysearch.org/Record/233743?searchId=23991942&recordIndex=2&page=1&referred=resultIndex

Hi!

You should be able to find it here:

https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/#query.type=ALL&query.facetQuery.date=1843&query.city=T%25C5%2582uchowo&query.suggestion=false&query.thumbnails=false&query.facet=true&query.asc=false&query.sortMode=PUBLICATION&modal=293953745&modalExtra=391451383&personTree=false&goComments=false&searcher=big&query.query

The pages are loading so slowly for me, so maybe you could look for it.

Otherwise, if you look at this, it appears that the church books you need are still held by the parish:

https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=8797

You might consider writing to them, to ask. Perhaps Barb could give some advice on that.

Your Huta (there are many Huta) which is part of Skepe parish is not far at all from Tluchowo. Google Maps shows them within 18 miles of each other, with Huta about mid-way between Skepe and Tluchowo.

Sophia

P.S. OK, I did find the image of the marriage record on that Genealogiawarchiwach site, but maybe it is more fun for you to search than for me to give you the direct link? Let me know if you want the image number and I will provide it.

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:02 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:02 pm

I hope that I am not becoming a pest! I saw this in Geneteka and I think it might be a good match for the marriage record of my great x 3 grandparents. (Marian Kwiatkowski and Angela (Aniela?) Gajewska 1843, Record 3 from Tluchowo parish)
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=02kp&rid=S&search_lastname=kwiatkowski&search_name=marian&search_lastname2=gajewska&search_name2=angela&from_date=&to_date=
I know that the daughter (Franciszka Kwiatkowski) of the groom was born in Huta--is Tluchowo close to Huta? Or is this an unlikely match for her parent’s marriage record?
I think the record is only available on microfilm in Utah, but I am still a beginner, so if this sounds like a likely match and if there is another way to access this record, please let me know!
https://libcat.familysearch.org/Record/233743?searchId=23991942&recordIndex=2&page=1&referred=resultIndex

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:28 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:28 pm

KB773 wrote:

Thank you--that is exactly what I did wrong. I chose the first record and didn't even try the second record there. This helps a lot!

Well, Mary, you did exactly what I would have done. You wanted to look at a broad number of years so that you could see several family members, and the second set does not include much of what you needed to see. It is just a bit of bad luck that in the copy of the records, one year seems to have gotten lost.

If there is any overlap in the years covered by both sets of records, sometimes it is interesting to see how a record looks in both versions. They should contain identical information, of course, but human error shows up from time to time.

Leave no stone unturned! And best of luck in your search.

Sophia

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:25 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:25 pm

Thank you--that is exactly what I did wrong. I chose the first record and didn't even try the second record there. This helps a lot!

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:13 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:13 pm

[quote="KB773"]

Sophia wrote:

KB773 wrote:

What you see, reading from the bottom up, is the birth of Wiktoria Kwityng in 1864 and her sister Anastazja Stanislawa Kwityng in 1862. I consider Antonina Kwityn, born 1859, to also be a sister. What intrigues me are the three children listed above them, now with the surname Kwiatkowski/a. What are the chances that there were two women named Antonina Gajewska, in the same village, both with a husband named Marian whose last name began Kwi.... and both having children in the same timeframe? Or is this all one family, with a surname changing from Kwiatkowski to Kwityng sometime between 1856 and 1859? I do not see any connection between the names Kwiatkowski and Kwityng, no similarity in the linguistic root as far as I know, so this is a bit of a stretch. However, if you are curious, you could look at these six records and see whether the ages of the parents are provided in each birth record, and determine whether they age (approximately) correctly from 1849 to 1864.

Best of luck in your continued research,
Sophia

I did my homework and searched the records. It was a great learning project for me.
I found all but the 1849 record for Marianna. Unfortunately, it didn't clear anything up! The ages of Marian and Aniela do not correspond chronologically. BUT, the godparents are often (not always) the same names for each child (a Lewandowski and a Tomaszyski reappear regularly as godparents.)
I was hoping it was a typo, because there is one Kwityng that is illegible, and was transcribed as Kwiatkowski (Jan's record 1854), but the following record 1856, the name is clear as day 'Kwiatkowski', not Kwityng.
This may remain a mystery, but if anyone has any suggestions about what they would do next in a situation like this, please let me know! Also, any leads on finding 1849 records for Skepe would be great.
Thank you very much for getting me this far!!!
Mary

Hi Mary,
So happy to know that you are keeping up with your research. Let me help you with one little detail, regarding the 1849 birth record. If you look at what FamilySearch shows as church records for Skepe, you get this page:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=4454974&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Poland%2C%20Kuyavia-Pomerania%2C%20Lipno%2C%20Sk%C4%99pe%22&subjectsOpen=348753-50
And on it you see two choices. The first choice, which is likely the one you followed in your search, is "Kopie ksieg metrykalnych 1826-1883" and this is the COPY of the church records. In this collection, birth records for the year 1849 seem to be missing. The second choice is "ksieg metrykalnych 1722-1854" which is the ORIGINAL book of church records. If you look, you will see that the 1849 births are included.
Good luck,
Sophia

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:36 am

Author: KB773

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:36 am

Thank you, that makes sense. I will start looking into the Kwiatkowski lineage now (but I will still keep an eye out for any Kwityng in the records just in case!)
I don't necessarily need that record, but thanks again. I'm sure I will be asking many more questions as I delve deeper!
Mary

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

BarbOslo — Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:47 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:47 pm

[quote="KB773"]

Sophia wrote:

KB773 wrote:

Hallo,
I think it was a mistake. Kwiatkowski is the correct surname.
Do you want this birth record?
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=3787&search_lastname=kwiatkowska&search_name=marianna&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=1849&to_date=1849

-Barb

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:13 am

Author: KB773

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:13 am

This is the image from Jan Kwiatkowski's birth record in which I thought maybe the father's name was Kwityng because the handwriting is practically illegible. (But for the following year, 1856, his name is clearly written as Kwiatkowski.)
Mary

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:09 am

Author: KB773

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:09 am

[quote="Sophia"]

KB773 wrote:

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Fri Oct 18, 2024 5:25 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 5:25 pm

This is intriguing and a wonderful project for me to look into! My grandfather died young and my grandmother didn't talk about him, so nothing was passed down about his side of the family.
This must be the same family Kwiatkowski/Kwityng....I can see I have some work to do! Thank you again. This is a good mystery!

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

Sophia — Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:13 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:13 am

KB773 wrote:

Thank you Sophia!
The first thing I’ve been doing on Geneteka is changing it to English—I didn’t realize that it could change some search results. This is so good to know. I will keep it in Polish from now on.
I will follow up on the Kwityng anomalies. I’ve been sorting by name by clicking the little blue arrow next to ‘Nazwisko’, and then double checking to make sure it’s alphabetical in the results. Please let me know if there is a better way of sorting results.

One question: do you or anyone else know how to find the records for the parish of Betlewo in Mokow? (Marianna’s husband’s father, Jan Kuczmarski is from there). I found this reference to the parishes:
https://stephendanko.com/blog/7971
but I do not see anything resembling ‘Betlowo’.

Any and all tips are so appreciated! Thank you!
Mary

Hi Mary,

Glad to know that you are making such great progress with using Geneteka. You've found the way of sorting results, it is the same way that I do it. Also, I see Barb has already answered the part of your question that had to do with the record from Betlewo. Great!

I have continued thinking about your Kwityng family. This surname was certainly rare in Poland, and I wonder whether any information about it has been passed along in your family history. Might they have come to Poland from another country, and the Kwityng spelling was used as a Polish approximation of the surname which was originally in another language? While I was mulling that over, I did a little thinking-outside-the-box exercise, and decided to use Geneteka to search the Skepe parish for all births where the father's name was Marian (without specifying his surname) and the mother's maiden name was Aniela Gajewska. Take a look:

https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=3787&search_lastname=&search_name=Marian&search_lastname2=Gajewska&search_name2=Aniela&from_date=&to_date=

What you see, reading from the bottom up, is the birth of Wiktoria Kwityng in 1864 and her sister Anastazja Stanislawa Kwityng in 1862. I consider Antonina Kwityn, born 1859, to also be a sister. What intrigues me are the three children listed above them, now with the surname Kwiatkowski/a. What are the chances that there were two women named Antonina Gajewska, in the same village, both with a husband named Marian whose last name began Kwi.... and both having children in the same timeframe? Or is this all one family, with a surname changing from Kwiatkowski to Kwityng sometime between 1856 and 1859? I do not see any connection between the names Kwiatkowski and Kwityng, no similarity in the linguistic root as far as I know, so this is a bit of a stretch. However, if you are curious, you could look at these six records and see whether the ages of the parents are provided in each birth record, and determine whether they age (approximately) correctly from 1849 to 1864.

Best of luck in your continued research,
Sophia

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

KB773 — Thu Oct 17, 2024 3:10 pm

Author: KB773

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2024 3:10 pm

Thanks for sending the map and the translation. This is so beyond my expectations on what I'd find for my Polish family tree.
I am so happy to also report that my attempts to translate Jan's birth record were pretty close to your translation, so I am making progress!

Re: Marianna Mrozinski

BarbOslo — Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:02 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:02 pm

Hallo Mary,
Here is the translation of Jan's birth record.

No. 34 Bętlewo Mostowe
It happened in the village of Mokowo, on March 21st/April 2nd, 1854, at 2 p.m.
Appeared personally Marian Kuczmarski, a peasant, 28 years old, living in Bętlewo, in the presence of Maciej Kostrzewski, 50 years old and Szymon Szczepankoski, 45 years old, both peasants, living in Bętlewo Mostowe and presented Us a newborn male child, who was born in Bętlewo Mostowe on March 17th / 29th at 4 a.m. to his legal wife, Małgorzata nee Kostrzewska, 30 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today the child was given the name Jan, and the godparents were Jan Kuczmarski and Franciszka Kuczmarska.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses, who were illiterate, and it was signed by Us only.
Priest Ignacy Urbanowicz, the Mokowo parish-priest, serving as Civil Registrar.