PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:34 pm

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:34 pm

That appears to be spam. Does anyone have suggestions of how to move forward now that we have all this documentation?

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:37 am

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:37 am

Oh wow somehow I missed the manifest that's possible for Isse - that truly is interesting, and my mother actually thought that he was potentially from Lodz! We had found (but I am not sure where, sadly) info that Solomon and his wife had been living in Lodz. This very well may be the correct manifest!

If it says Poland on it - could this mean that he was, in fact, a Polish Jew?

From my mom re: the ship manifest for Isse -
"That could very well be the one. He was a tailor. I saw that entry, but I dismissed it because I was going by the marriage certificate that I had that used the name of Pearlstein for his father."

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:55 am

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:55 am

Thank you, that is really exciting! So what do you suggest I do next - it seems looking for those relatives and governorates would be useful? Are there Polish archives to look into?

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:53 am

Author: Trish

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:53 am

Sophia wrote:

Trish wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I found this manifest. This is only a possibility for Isse. I just thought it was interesting for the father is Solomon. He is going to his Uncle's in New York. I would keep this record in the "possibility folder".

Regards,
Trish

Hi Trish,
It is an interesting manifest. As you pointed out, his father's name is Solomon which is a plus. His age is very close to what is expected. On the cautious side, he is from Łódź rather than Warsaw (or the Warsaw area) as expected. He is a tailor, which was a quite common trade for Jews in Łódź, a city where textiles was the major industry. I would guess that if you were a trained tailor as a young man, you would be likely to keep it up after you emigrated. I don't remember seeing anything in the records we have for Isse so far that would indicate he was a tailor. I agree with you that the "possibility folder" is the right place to keep this one.
Sophia

Hi Sophia,
Thanks for the input on the manifest.

Enjoy your day!
Trish

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Sophia — Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:44 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:44 pm

Trish wrote:

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:07 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:07 pm

Hi Everyone,

I found this manifest. This is only a possibility for Isse. I just thought it was interesting for the father is Solomon. He is going to his Uncle's in New York. I would keep this record in the "possibility folder".

Regards,
Trish

Name Izaak Gross
Gender Male
Race Hebrew
Arrival Age 27
Record Type Arrival
Birth Date abt 1893
Birth Place Poland
Residence Place Canada
Arrival Date Nov 1920
Port of Arrival Buffalo, New York, USA
Line Number 15
Father Solomon Gross
Relative Name Louis Sintevity
Relative Relationship Uncle

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Sophia — Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:58 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:58 am

CLPolish2024 wrote:

Sorry I disappeared - for some reason I stopped getting email updates about this!

So the story I have been told is that Hannah immigrated from Lithuania when she was about 16, because her parents died, and she was going to go live with family in America (the Oleskys?).

I hope that helps.
Is it still useful for me to purchase the marriage record?

Thank you!

Hi C,

I would like to comment on the manifest that Trish found for "Ette Goron." On this manifest, we see Ette on Line 9. On the first page of the manifest, you see she is a 17 year old Jewish woman from Russia but of course that would have included what later became Lithuania. The question is, where is this "Resyn"? Her father's name looks exactly like what you were looking for. We also learn that she was a seamstress. Her destination is her brother on E. 99th Street in New York, as you see on the second page. Both she and the woman on Line 10 have this handwritten note, "Dis to Mr I Bader Rep Heb Aid [illegible]" which I interpret to mean that they were discharged into the care of a Mr. I. Bader, a representative of a Hebrew Aid society of some sort, which could be interesting to explore if you feel like researching it. This seems to have been arranged by their respective brothers, since neither women is on the "Detained Aliens" list, quite lucky for them, because sometimes people were detained for days when the person who was supposed to meet them did not come for them. It is not clear to me whether Etta and the other woman knew each other, it is possible that they were from neighboring villages, who knows, but this Smagon (Smagow?) was in Gubernia Wilenski so perhaps it is worth looking for that place and seeing if there is a "Resyn" nearby. I think what Trish found is absolutely the Ethel Garon/Garron (sister of your Hannah) who married Samuel Olesky.

Further, Trish found a manifest for "Rowar Goran," who is likely the brother of Hannah and Ethel. Notice the traveler on the next line down, Joel Olesky. Isn't that exciting?

Looking at these manifests provides so much more color and information than looking at only the indexed information from them. I cannot promise that the marriage certificate, which you are unsure about ordering a copy of, will provide the same wealth of extras. It's your money. Still, if I knew that there is a document out there for an ancestor of mine, it would be hard for me not to reach for it.

All the best,
Sophia

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:34 am

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:34 am

Sorry I disappeared - for some reason I stopped getting email updates about this!

So the story I have been told is that Hannah immigrated from Lithuania when she was about 16, because her parents died, and she was going to go live with family in America (the Oleskys?).

I hope that helps.
Is it still useful for me to purchase the marriage record?

Thank you!

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:42 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:42 pm

Trish wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I found this record for a possible “Ether” (Ette) Goron. Look at the father’s name. Does it look like Nochim (not sure of correct spelling)? Can you make out the name of the town? What do you think?

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=etta&q.surname=goron

Regards,
Trish

Name Ette Goron
Gender Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality Hebrew
Marital Status Single
Age 17
Birth Date abt 1895
Birth Place Russia
Other Birth Place Reoyn
Last Known Residence Resyn, Russia
Departure Port Antwerp, Belgium
Arrival Date 18 Mar 1912
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Residence Place Russia
Final Destination New York City, New York
Height 4 Feet, 11 Inches
Hair Color Dark
Eye Color Dark
Complexion Fair
Money in Possession $17
Person in Old Country Auchem Goron (Coud this be Nochim?)
Person in Old Country Relationship Father
Person in Old Country Residence Resyn Russia
Person in US Ruwin Goron
Person in US Relationship Brother
Father Auchem Goron
Sibling Ruwin Goron
Ship Name Lapland

Hi Everyone,

Going by the manifest above for "Ette", I found this manifest which could be the brother that is listed on "Ette's" manifest. What do you think? Can someone read the names of the towns.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JXLF-Q6R

Thanks!
Regards,
Trish

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:18 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:18 pm

Hi Everyone,

I found this record for a possible “Ethel” (Ette) Goron. Look at the father’s name. Does it look like Nochim (not sure of correct spelling)? Can you make out the name of the town? What do you think?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TC-CQQ7-2?view=index&action=view&cc=1368704

Ette is on line #9.

Regards,
Trish
PS: I edited the post and added the correct link for the manifest.

Name Ette Goron
Gender Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality Hebrew
Marital Status Single
Age 17
Birth Date abt 1895
Birth Place Russia
Other Birth Place Reoyn
Last Known Residence Resyn, Russia
Departure Port Antwerp, Belgium
Arrival Date 18 Mar 1912
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Residence Place Russia
Final Destination New York City, New York
Height 4 Feet, 11 Inches
Hair Color Dark
Eye Color Dark
Complexion Fair
Money in Possession $17
Person in Old Country Auchem Goron (Coud this be Nochim?)
Person in Old Country Relationship Father
Person in Old Country Residence Resyn Russia
Person in US Ruwin Goron
Person in US Relationship Brother
Father Auchem Goron
Sibling Ruwin Goron
Ship Name Lapland

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Sophia — Sat Nov 16, 2024 6:24 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 6:24 am

Trish wrote:

jajan wrote:

Just reading along and found this which might show that Ethel Olesky was nee Garron and possibly Hannah’s sister, which might help clarify the parent’s names? Would need to check the original marriage certificate to verify the correct last name for Ethel’s mother.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QD-5WS

Name Samuel Olesky
Sex Male
Age 31
Birth Year (Estimated) 1885
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Single
Race White
Father's Name Isaac
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Mollie Cohen
Mother's Sex Female
Spouse's Name Ethel Garron
Spouse's Sex Female
Spouse's Age 20
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1896
Spouse's Birthplace Russia
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Race White
Spouse's Father's Name Nathan
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Mother's Name Gittel Teneberg
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 2 Apr 1916
Event Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 8212

Hi Jajan,
I was just getting ready to post the same record.

This is interesting. It seems Ethel's mother is living with the family in 1925. The mother is listed as "Rose". Maybe it's a nickname.

Regards,
Trish

Name Ethel Olesky
Gender Female
Color or Race White
Age 28
Birth Date abt 1897
Birth Place Russia
Residence Date 1925
House Number 805
Residence Place New York, Bronx
Relationship Wife
Number of years in US 13
Assembly District 07
Line Number 08
Page number 19
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Samuel Olesky 38 Head
Ethel Olesky 28 Wife
Alice Olesky 6 Daughter
Isabel Olesky 2 Daughter
Rose Garron 65 Mother-in-law

Hi everyone,

This is so interesting! The records that Jajan and Trish found have changed my mind completely about the surname GARRON. I was so sure that it was an incorrect reading of bad handwriting, when the marriage document used that spelling, but now I see that I was wrong. I looked at the 1920 census for Samuel and Ethel Olesky and their family, and that very helpfully gives the year that Samuel was naturalized, 1911. I should point out that Ethel derived her citizenship from her husband, so it is not helpful to look for Ethel's naturalization document.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M45X-XN9

It also shows that both Samuel and Ethel arrived in 1902, which would have made Ethel quite young when she immigrated. That may suggest that Hannah and Ethel came with their parents, if that helps in the search for a ship manifest. It seems to confirm Lithuania as the birthplace for the sisters. We do now have a question as to whether their mother's surname was Teneberg or Feinberg.

Sophia

P.S. Just to confuse things, Family Search shows a naturalization document for an Ethel Garron, but note that this one was born in 1908 in Riga, Latvia and was naturalized in 1928 (when "our" Ethel Garron was already Ethel Olesky) so it is a different woman. Also, it is showing she had a married surname of Munsat.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6GZ1-HZRR

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:08 pm

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:08 pm

You guys are the best, this is so fascinating! I need to discuss with my mother and will come back with more details.

Nathan was essentially orphaned when Isse passed and Hannah entered the asylum, so we believe he went to go live with the Oleskys. He was rumored to have played violin on the streets of NYC to get a little bit of cash to get by.
Eventually I believe he went to Harvard and that is where he met my grandmother (she went to Radcliff, the female version of Harvard at the time - since men and women couldn't study together?).

I will be back with more details soon hopefully. Thank you again!

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:59 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:59 pm

jajan wrote:

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

jajan — Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:33 pm

Author: jajan

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:33 pm

Just reading along and found this which might show that Ethel Olesky was nee Garron and possibly Hannah’s sister, which might help clarify the parent’s names? Would need to check the original marriage certificate to verify the correct last name for Ethel’s mother.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QD-5WS

Name Samuel Olesky
Sex Male
Age 31
Birth Year (Estimated) 1885
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Single
Race White
Father's Name Isaac
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Mollie Cohen
Mother's Sex Female
Spouse's Name Ethel Garron
Spouse's Sex Female
Spouse's Age 20
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1896
Spouse's Birthplace Russia
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Race White
Spouse's Father's Name Nathan
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Mother's Name Gittel Teneberg
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 2 Apr 1916
Event Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 8212

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:26 pm

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:26 pm

Wow..this is all amazing to see. It is bringing tears to my eyes... thank you for shedding some light on our family.

I will purchase the wedding certificate soon and post it here.

A religious record - so that would be through the synagogue they attended? Do you guys have any suggestions for where to look for that?

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:03 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:03 pm

CLPolish2024 wrote:

Thank you for all this!

They were all Jewish. So they may show up in Holocaust records, especially the family that was unable to leave Europe.

As far as I know, it was Isadore (Isse was a nickname we believe) and Hannah. I have not seen other spellings, but it is possible that Hannah was spelled differently, we believe she was from Lithuania.

Isse died around 30-40 years old I believe, or younger. When Hannah died she was much older, I think she lived into her 80s but spent a good majority of her life in an asylum in NYC. Neither of them left New York. Due to Isse's death and Hannah entering the asylum, Nathan ended up with we believe his cousins, with the family name Olesky. He eventually traveled to Washington alone with his wife Alice.

I was able to find one other document that is likely when Nathan Gross signed up for the draft.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2CR-DMVB

Would it be very useful for me to purchase the marriage certificate copy? Perhaps it has some details we aren't seeing?

Hi C,

Sophia was on the right track about Hannah being in the asylum. Hannah was in the asylum in the 1930, 1940, and 1950 census. Here is the information for the census records. Here are the links for the records on family search.

1930 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RCS-CTK?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
[Hannah Bross]
Birth Year abt 1905
Gender Female
Race White
Age in 1930 25
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Married
Home in 1930 Islip, Suffolk, New York, USA
Map of Home Islip, Suffolk, New York
Institution Central Islip State Hospital
Attended School No
Able to Read and Write Yes
Language Spoken Un
Naturalization Alien
Able to Speak English Yes
Occupation Inmate

1940 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9MB-3SNY?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
Age 36
Estimated Birth Year abt 1904
Gender Female
Race White
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Married
Relation to Head of House Inmate
Home in 1940 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Map of Home in 1940 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Street Institution Located On Carleton Avenue
Farm Yes
Inferred Residence in 1935 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Residence in 1935 Islip
Resident on farm in 1935 Yes
Citizenship Alien
Sheet Number 5A
Institution Central Islip State Hospital (insane)
Attended School or College No
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census 03

1950 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHN-PQHW-SDRB?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
Age 46
Birth Date abt 1904
Gender Female
Race White
Birth Place Russia
Marital Status Married
Relation to Head of House Patient
Residence Date 1950
Home in 1950 Islip, Suffolk, New York, USA
Dwelling Number V32
Farm No
Acres Yes
Institution Name Central Islip State Hospital
Institution Type Mental

Regards,
Trish

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Sophia — Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:00 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:00 pm

I think it would be well worth it to get the marriage certificate, using the link provided by Trish. What you are seeing online is an index entry, created by someone who was reading a handwritten document and doing their best to interpret it. My best guess is that Hannah (or Chana, good thinking, Trish) had a surname that was not Garron, but something that when handwritten could look like Garron. It would be useful to see the original handwritten entry. What I don't know is whether it will include the marriage license application. At any rate, I have looked for ship manifests for Hannah and am not finding her arrival. I do see her in the census for 1930, 1940 and 1950 in Islip, at a mental health institution. With Isse, there are simply so many men whose first name began with the letters "Is" and whose last name was Gross that it is very difficult to determine which ship manifest might be his. It would be so beneficial if you could find a religious record of his marriage, or as Trish suggested for Nathan's birth, which would give a clue as to where specifically he came from.

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:21 pm

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:21 pm

Thank you for all this!

They were all Jewish. So they may show up in Holocaust records, especially the family that was unable to leave Europe.

As far as I know, it was Isadore (Isse was a nickname we believe) and Hannah. I have not seen other spellings, but it is possible that Hannah was spelled differently, we believe she was from Lithuania.

Isse died around 30-40 years old I believe, or younger. When Hannah died she was much older, I think she lived into her 80s but spent a good majority of her life in an asylum in NYC. Neither of them left New York. Due to Isse's death and Hannah entering the asylum, Nathan ended up with we believe his cousins, with the family name Olesky. He eventually traveled to Washington alone with his wife Alice.

I was able to find one other document that is likely when Nathan Gross signed up for the draft.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2CR-DMVB

Would it be very useful for me to purchase the marriage certificate copy? Perhaps it has some details we aren't seeing?

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Trish — Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:22 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:22 pm

CLPolish2024 wrote:

It is a family story that they changed the names from Perlstein to Gross and Feinberg to Garron - and it seems to be supported by the documentation, but it is totally possible we are interpreting this incorrectly. If we are interpreting it incorrectly and the story is false - then perhaps that makes everything a bit easier, as there is no name change to complicate things!

Do you know how I can get these documents (marriage certificate, ship manifest)? I have searched for Hannah Garron and for Isse Gross in ship manifests and found nothing. Also, for the marriage certificate, it seems I need to pay in order to have the official one?

I have also been told it could be useful to ask USCIS if there is a document for Isse Gross for his naturalization.

Thank you again for the help, this is really useful.

Hi C and Sophia.

C- I agree with Sophia with how the names are on the marriage transcriptions. On the following websites: family search, ancestry.com, and Find my Past, they are all showing the following information on your ancestors.

Groom's Name: Isse Gross
Father: Solomon Gross
Mother: Bella Perlstein

Bride's Name Hannah Garron
Fther's Name: Nochim Garron
Mother's Name: Gertel Feinberg

If you would like to get the marriage record, here is the link for the form to use. It will cost you $22.00.

https://www.health.ny.gov/forms/doh-4384.pdf

Can I ask what religion your ancestors were? By any chance is there a baptismal record for Nathan Gross that might have information about where his parents were from?

Also, do we have the correct spelling of your ancestor's names? An example: Frank could be for Francis, Franz, Franciszek, etc. So what could the correct name for "Isse"? Is Hannah really Hannah, Hana, Chana, Henia?

You can keep trying to find a ship's manifest on this website. I've been searching, but I'm not having much luck finding any clues.
https://stevemorse.org/ellis2/ellisgold.html

What information do you have on the death of Isse and Hannah? I see them in the 1925 New York State Census and then they disappear. I see Nathan going to Massachusetts to get married. He dies in Washington. Did the family travel together? Or did Isse and Hannah stay in New York? Do you have any other documents on the family?

Regards,
Trish

Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

CLPolish2024 — Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:27 am

Author: CLPolish2024

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:27 am

It is a family story that they changed the names from Perlstein to Gross and Feinberg to Garron - and it seems to be supported by the documentation, but it is totally possible we are interpreting this incorrectly. If we are interpreting it incorrectly and the story is false - then perhaps that makes everything a bit easier, as there is no name change to complicate things!

Do you know how I can get these documents (marriage certificate, ship manifest)? I have searched for Hannah Garron and for Isse Gross in ship manifests and found nothing. Also, for the marriage certificate, it seems I need to pay in order to have the official one?

I have also been told it could be useful to ask USCIS if there is a document for Isse Gross for his naturalization.

Thank you again for the help, this is really useful.