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Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Thu Jul 10, 2025 11:06 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 11:06 pm

I apologize for the mix up. I am simultaneously working on detailing out Ella Kleiner's father's Josef Altholz's family tree and the Mechel Altholz family tree. I am in touch with a descendent of Mechel's.

Mechel's clan is extensively documented. They also published articles in the Forward about their parents' Shoah survivor experiences as well as the DP camps as well as how they got to the USA and started over. The aforementioned articles incude stunning old black-and-white family photos. Also at least 2 of their clan's Shoah survivors were interviewed and videotaped for posterity. Well done, very interesting and informative interviews.

Altholz / Altholtz Clan # 3: Incidently, back in 1993 I got in touch with an elderly Shoah survivor from Dukla, Max Hirschhorn z"l (1907 -2010) who shared what he knew first-hand about the Dukla Altholz / Altholtz clans. He had a vivid and excellent memory. He was the son of Mindel Altholtz and Yossel Hirschhorn. His maternal grandparents were Yisroel Altholtz and Tzivia Gartner (born circa 1839 or earlier, based on their oldest known offspring Avrum Mordechai (Max) Altholtz's birth year of 1858). He died in 1908 and is buried in Washington Cemetery. FindAGrave has an excellent photo of his monument:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/165350777/max-altholtz

I have thoroughly documented Altholtz / Altholz Clan # 3 based on personal interviews as well as federal census data, Ellis Island records, naturalization records, obituaries, old newspapers, announcements, miscellaneous sources and a lot of Google searches. It's fairly up to date.

Probable Altholz / Altholtz Clan # 4 (I think): There appears to be a Brzozow branch of the Altholtz / Altholz clan whose matriarch's maiden name (not recorded in the Brzozow censuses or Brzozow vital records) may have been Altholtz (based on circumstantial evidence) . According to some of their descendents z"l they were related to the Altholtz / Altholz clan. Moreover, a grandson's NYC death record listed his mother's maiden name as "Althaus". So it appears that his maternal grandmother, enumerated by the 1869 Brzozow census, was probably an Altholtz. The grandson's parents emigrated to the USA during the 1880s. His mother died in Central Islip (Suffolk County) in 1906. It could take up to 8 months to obtain a copy of her death record which hopefully should list her mother's maiden name. If my hypothesis is correct and I'm able to confirm the Altholtz connection that will add more that 2,000 descendents (including spouses). Back in those days children didn't automatically inherit their father's surname unless their parents were legally married (ritual marriage Ketubahs didn't satisfy the requirements). Otherwise the offspring were "nieslubne" and in accordance with laws in effect at that time inherited their mother's family name. If the parents subsequently obtained a civil ceremony and provided proof of marriage as well as the father and mother appeared in person at the place where the birth records were originally recorded, the offsprings' birth records would be amended accordingly, along with the father's name written in, as well as remarks noted thereon as to the place, date, documentation Akt #s. Many couples at that time only had ritual marriages. It wasn't until the 1930s that someone could fill out and file an affidavit and self-declare their father 's name and switch from the mother's surname to the father's surname.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Thu Jul 10, 2025 2:39 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 2:39 pm

I apologize for the mix up. I am simultaneously working on detailing out Ella Kleiner's father's Josef Altholz's family tree and the Mechel Altholz family tree. I am in touch with a descendent of Mechel's.

Mechel's clan is extensively documented. They also published articles in the Forward about their parents' Shoah survivor experiences as well as the DP camps as well as how they got to the USA and started over. The aforementioned articles incude stunning old black-and-white family photos. Also at least 2 of their clan's Shoah survivors were interviewed and videotaped for posterity. Well done, very interesting and informative interviews.

Altholz / Altholtz Clan # 3: Incidently, back in 1993 I got in touch with an elderly Shoah survivor from Dukla, Max Hirschhorn z"l (1907 -2010) who shared what he knew first-hand about the Dukla Altholz / Altholtz clans. He had a vivid and excellent memory. He was the son of Mindel Altholtz and Yossel Hirschhorn. His maternal grandparents were Yisroel Altholtz and Tzivia Gartner (born circa 1839 or earlier, based on their oldest known offspring Avrum Mordechai (Max) Altholtz's birth year of 1858). He died in 1908 and is buried in Washington Cemetery. FindAGrave has an excellent photo of his monument:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/165350777/max-altholtz

I have thoroughly documented Altholtz / Altholz Clan # 3 based on personal interviews as well as federal census data, Ellis Island records, naturalization records, obituaries, old newspapers, announcements, miscellaneous sources and a lot of Google searches. It's fairly up to date.

Probable Altholz / Altholtz Clan # 4 (I think): There appears to be a Brzozow branch of the Altholtz / Altholz clan whose matriarch's maiden name (not recorded in the Brzozow censuses or Brzozow vital records) may have been Altholtz (based on circumstantial evidence) . According to some of their descendents z"l they were related to the Altholtz / Altholz clan. Moreover, a grandson's NYC death record listed his mother's maiden name as "Althaus". So it appears that his maternal grandmother, enumerated by the 1869 Brzozow census, was probably an Altholtz. The grandson's parents emigrated to the USA during the 1880s. His mother died in Central Islip (Suffolk County) in 1906. It could take up to 8 months to obtain a copy of her death record which hopefully should list her mother's maiden name. If my hypothesis is correct and I'm able to confirm the Altholtz connection that will add more that 2,000 descendents (including spouses). Back in those days children didn't automatically inherit their father's surname unless their parents were legally married (ritual marriage Ketubahs didn't satisfy the requirements). Otherwise the offspring were "nieslubne" and in accordance with laws in effect at that time inherited their mother's family name. If the parents subsequently obtained a civil ceremony and provided proof of marriage as well as the father and mother appeared in person at the place where the birth records were originally recorded, the offsprings' birth records would be amended accordingly, along with the father's name written in, as well as remarks noted thereon as to the place, date, documentation Akt #s. Many couples at that time only had ritual marriages. It wasn't until the 1930s that someone could fill out and file an affidavit and self-declare their father 's name and switch from the mother's surname to the father's surname.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

MSBGENE73 — Thu Jul 10, 2025 2:03 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 2:03 pm

J-Gen-Expert wrote:

I apologize for the mix up. I am simultaneously working on detailing out Ella Kleiner's father's Josef Altholz's family tree and the Mechel Altholz family tree. I am also in touch with a descendent of Mechel's clan.

They've gone a long way in researching and documenting their Mechel Altholz descendents clan, as well as writing up the details of their Shoah survivor parent's WW2 and DP camp experiences and starting over in the USA.

Their excellent articles were published by the Forward and even included stunning old black-and-white family photos. Moreover, at least 2 members of their clan were interviewed and videotaped. Those Shoah survivor interviews were well done, quite interesting and very informative!!!!!

Very cool! I am so happy to hear about all of your research on the Altholz lineage in this region. Happy to continue talking in PM if you have any questions or just think I could be of some help in piecing things together.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:52 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:52 pm

I apologize for the mix up. I am simultaneously working on detailing out Ella Kleiner's father's Josef Altholz's family tree and the Mechel Altholz family tree. I am also in touch with a descendent of Mechel's clan.

They've gone a long way in researching and documenting their Mechel Altholz descendents clan, as well as writing up the details of their Shoah survivor parent's WW2 and DP camp experiences and starting over in the USA.

Their excellent articles were published by the Forward and even included stunning old black-and-white family photos. Moreover, at least 2 members of their clan were interviewed and videotaped. Those Shoah survivor interviews were well done, quite interesting and very informative!!!!!

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Thu Jul 10, 2025 10:44 am

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 10:44 am

Thank you for catching my error. I apologize for my having confused Harriet and Helene. I should have been more careful!

Just so you know, I am actually working on detailing out the family tree connections of 3 Altholz (Altholtz) clans and their ancestral origins (Dukla / Krosno / Cheblia / Jaslo). I got in touch with an elderly Shoah survivor Meilech (Max) Hirschhorn z"l (1907 - 2010) back in 1993 and obtained a lot of Altholtz (Altholz) family tree data from him, plus got in touch with USA Altholtz (Altholz) members of that branch. As such I compiled (and recently updated) an extensive family tree of that branch.

Max Hirschhorn was born in Dukla. He was the son of Mindel Altholtz and Yossel Hirschhorn. Mindel was the daughter of Yisroel Altholtz & Tzivia Gartner who were born circa 1839 or earlier, based on their oldest known offspring, Avrum Mordechai (Max) Altholtz's birth year (1858). He died in NYC in 1908. D NYC/M 1908 # 7769 3/5/1908. His death record is not yet digitized. He is buried at Washington Cemetery. FindAGrave has a photograph of his tombstone!

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/165350777/max-altholtz

The interesting thing about the Polish (actually old Austro-Hungarian Empire) birth records is that they included the names of the maternal grandparents and their town and occupations and whether or not they were still living! I already came across several Altholz / Altholtz birth records from other parts of Poland but determined directly from the birth record data that the maternal grandparents were from Dukla.

I also discovered and extensively documented a huge branch of the Altholtz (Altholz) clan from Brzozow (based on the Brzozow censuses and circumstantial evidence, that their matriarch was from the Altholtz / Altholz clan). If my hypothesis is correct that I will be be able to include their family circle of 2,000+ (!) descendents which I shall redesignate as Altholtz Clan # 4!

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

MSBGENE73 — Thu Jul 10, 2025 7:37 am

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2025 7:37 am

J-Gen-Expert wrote:

I apologize for the mix up. I am simultaneously working on detailing out Ella Kleiner's father's Josef Altholz's family tree. I am in touch with a descendent thereof. More about that another time.

The following Arolsen Archives Document identifies Ella Kleiner's parents as Josef Altholz & Miriam Rosenthal.

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/73540600?s=73540600&t=222899&p=0

Therefore it is most interesting that Ella Kleiner's 1954 Petition for Naturalization included an affadavit by your clan's Helene Altholz (wife of Alfred Altholz).

As such, Ella Kleiner's father Josef Altholz and your ancestor Mechel Altholz may have been siblings.

I've definitely stumbled upon the name Josef Altholz while looking for my own family, so super cool you are detailing that Altholz family tree! I have to imagine there is some familial connection to that family and mine, but I do not believe Josef is Mechel's sibling as I believe his siblings were Elias, Dawid, Sara, and Moses. Moses died at 3 years old according to my records though. Dawid and Sara both married and had children and it's unclear about Elias. Mechel's father is Hersch Altholz so perhaps Josef is the son of one of Hersch's siblings which would make Josef Mechel's cousin or something like that.

The only wrench I am throwing in your assessment is that Helene is not the wife of Alfred so the Helene Altholz on Ella Kleiner's Naturalization Petition must be someone else. Alfred's wife was Harriet.

All very fascinating nonetheless!

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Wed Jul 09, 2025 7:05 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 7:05 pm

The following Arolsen Archives Document identifies Ella Kleiner's parents as Josef Altholz & Miriam Rosenthal.

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/73540600?s=73540600&t=222899&p=0

Therefore it is most interesting that Ella Kleiner's 1954 Petition for Naturalization included an affadavit by your clan's Helene Altholz (wife of Alfred Altholz).

As such, Ella Kleiner's father Josef Altholz and your ancestor Mechel Altholz may have been siblings.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

MSBGENE73 — Wed Jul 09, 2025 5:54 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 5:54 pm

J-Gen-Expert wrote:

1. Anna and William Freiberg were still married as of the 1950 federal census. They were childless. It is also interesting to note that her brother Alfred, his wife Harriet and their son were enumerated at the same address!

1950C) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHJ-5QHW-MQSJ-W
126 Oriental Blvd.,Brooklyn,NY.
Freiberg, Willi (Anna). Manager / retail children's apparel.

As per the NYC marriage index at https://nycmarriageindex.com/

Anna married Rubin Perlmutter in 1951. Brooklyn marriage license 1951 # 3504.

2. Apparently, the Krakow PSA was in touch with Anna Adamczyk, as per Dan's Krakow Search Engine search results which I have copied and pasted below:

FirstName Surname Birth BirthPlace Father Mother
Address/Date Occupation
Notes

Anna ALTHOLZ 17/12/1910 Chlebna Mechel - Henna FISCHLER
ul. Kolberga 6 /05.04.1946/ -
UWKr - AC III A 10/45 - zmiana nazwiska - Adamczyk
Found 1 match(es)

Residing at ul. Kolberga 6 in Krakow?

"zmiana nazwiska" = "change of name"; 10/1945 decree? "UWKr - AC III A 10/45"

3. Arolsen Archives actually has some documentation about Anna's sister Ella which lists her Maletzka alias plus her married name Kleiner. Ella's husband's name is listed as Moses Kleiner.

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/73540600?s=altholz&t=222899&p=5

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69922924?s=altholz&t=546157&p=5

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923032?s=altholz&t=546157&p=5

There are at least 2 unique documents pertaining to their daughter (AKA Fela):

Felicitas https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923032?s=maletzka&t=546157&p=2
Felicitas https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69922924?s=maletzka&t=546157&p=2

Felicia https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923987?s=maletzka&t=546187&p=2
Felicia https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69924063?s=maletzka&t=546187&p=0

"Ella Kleiner" was enumerated by the 1950 census. She was living with her daughter (Fella) and son-in-law Felix Sucher.
Ella's son Samuel and his wife (?) Lona? were also living in the same household!!!

1950C) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHN-PQHW-9SQ1
249 E. 49th St.,Brooklyn,NY. Sucher, Felix (Fella); son Amie1? born in Germany;
mother-in-law Ella; brother-in-law Samuel; sister-in-law Lona? (Samuel's wife)

Arolsen Archives has records about Fella (Felicja) Sucher and her husband, as follows:

Felicja Sucher

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69351952?s=fella%20sucher&t=2743290&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/75177806?s=fella%20sucher&t=222899&p=0

Felix Sucher

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69351953?s=felix%20sucher&t=2743290&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/75177809?s=felix%20sucher&t=222899&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/81652228?s=felix%20sucher&t=21767&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/81787249?s=felix%20sucher&t=21918&p=0

Arolsen Archives has records about Samuel Kleiner:

Samuel Kleiner (wife's name Lucia Formalska):

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693819?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693820?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693821?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923033?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=546157&p=1

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/72972279?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=222899&p=1

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/79291719?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2890855&p=1

There are at least 4 documents about Lucia Formalska . I will post the associated URLs another time.

Ella was widowed by 1954. She filed her USDC/EDNY naturalization petition on 10/14/1954. She was naturalized on 12/9/1954.

petition front and back side -

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMV-HD1H

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMV-HDYT

According to the aforementioned Petition she was born in Dukla on 5/18/1898. She emigrated to the USA on 8/26/1949. Her late husband Moses (deceased) was born in Krosno in September, 1893. They were married at Dukla on 4/4/1922.

Their offspring: Fella born in Poland on 8/25/1926 & Sam born in Poland on 5/7/1923.

NOTE: It's unclear as to where their children were born. If it was in Dukla and recorded at Dukla, their names are probably listed in the JRI-Poland records (not posted but available upon sponsoring the Dukla records indexing project with a nominal donation). Also although there are some surviving Dukla marriage records, the 1922 marriage records are missing / lost.

Ella's sister-in-law "Helene Engel Altholz" (Alfred Altholz's wife) was one of the persons listed under her naturalization petition's "Affidavit of Witnesses" section!

So there you have it.

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1. Obviously I don't know first-hand if this is accurate, but Max (my ggf) owned a children's clothing store in Brooklyn, so my guess is Will was an employee whom he may have asked a favor of to get Anna over to the U.S. more securely. I could be totally wrong, but that is how this storyline would make sense. She must have met Rubin in the years between 1947 and 1951 and when she felt it was safe enough to get remarried did so. My guess is the marriage to Will was "sham" for lack of a better way to put it and they all lived with Al and Harriet for convenience.

2. Interesting! From what I understand from my family, she was training to be a nurse when the war broke out and she was hidden by a family or families and this all could have been in Krakow. Perhaps that is why they tried to contact her at some point.

3. Unfortunately I do not think the Ella you mentioned is related to Max/Anna in that way because Ella is actually Al (the one whose wife is Harriet). Ella is actually a male. You can see this here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS9C-99H1-P?lang=en&i=676. The birth date of Ella on the birth record I have and the birth date of Al match up and I also got confirmation from someone at JRI-POLAND that the birth record has Female crossed out and Male written over it. This other Ella Altholz could easily be related to my family as a distant cousin of some kind.

I really appreciate your interest in this and sending me over all of the things you are finding! I forgot how fun genealogy research can be as I have taken a few months off from it for various personal reasons. I double checked my settings and I do have it enabled to receive notifications when there are new replies, so perhaps I did receive those emails from previous replies a few weeks ago and accidentally deleted them or something.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

J-Gen-Expert — Wed Jul 09, 2025 2:06 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 2:06 pm

1. Anna and William Freiberg were still married as of the 1950 federal census. They were childless. It is also interesting to note that her brother Alfred, his wife Harriet and their son were enumerated at the same address!

1950C) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHJ-5QHW-MQSJ-W
126 Oriental Blvd.,Brooklyn,NY.
Freiberg, Willi (Anna). Manager / retail children's apparel.

As per the NYC marriage index at https://nycmarriageindex.com/

Anna married Rubin Perlmutter in 1951. Brooklyn marriage license 1951 # 3504.

2. Apparently, the Krakow PSA was in touch with Anna Adamczyk, as per Dan's Krakow Search Engine search results which I have copied and pasted below:

FirstName Surname Birth BirthPlace Father Mother
Address/Date Occupation
Notes

Anna ALTHOLZ 17/12/1910 Chlebna Mechel - Henna FISCHLER
ul. Kolberga 6 /05.04.1946/ -
UWKr - AC III A 10/45 - zmiana nazwiska - Adamczyk
Found 1 match(es)

Residing at ul. Kolberga 6 in Krakow?

"zmiana nazwiska" = "change of name"; 10/1945 decree? "UWKr - AC III A 10/45"

3. Arolsen Archives actually has some documentation about Anna's sister Ella which lists her Maletzka alias plus her married name Kleiner. Ella's husband's name is listed as Moses Kleiner.

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/73540600?s=altholz&t=222899&p=5

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69922924?s=altholz&t=546157&p=5

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923032?s=altholz&t=546157&p=5

There are at least 2 unique documents pertaining to their daughter (AKA Fela):

Felicitas https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923032?s=maletzka&t=546157&p=2
Felicitas https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69922924?s=maletzka&t=546157&p=2

Felicia https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923987?s=maletzka&t=546187&p=2
Felicia https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69924063?s=maletzka&t=546187&p=0

"Ella Kleiner" was enumerated by the 1950 census. She was living with her daughter (Fella) and son-in-law Felix Sucher.
Ella's son Samuel and his wife (?) Lona? were also living in the same household!!!

1950C) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHN-PQHW-9SQ1
249 E. 49th St.,Brooklyn,NY. Sucher, Felix (Fella); son Amie1? born in Germany;
mother-in-law Ella; brother-in-law Samuel; sister-in-law Lona? (Samuel's wife)

Arolsen Archives has records about Fella (Felicja) Sucher and her husband, as follows:

Felicja Sucher

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69351952?s=fella%20sucher&t=2743290&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/75177806?s=fella%20sucher&t=222899&p=0

Felix Sucher

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69351953?s=felix%20sucher&t=2743290&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/75177809?s=felix%20sucher&t=222899&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/81652228?s=felix%20sucher&t=21767&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/81787249?s=felix%20sucher&t=21918&p=0

Arolsen Archives has records about Samuel Kleiner:

Samuel Kleiner (wife's name Lucia Formalska):

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693819?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693820?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/67693821?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2739014&p=0

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/69923033?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=546157&p=1

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/72972279?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=222899&p=1

https://collections.arolsen-archives.org/en/search/person/79291719?s=samuel%20kleiner&t=2890855&p=1

There are at least 4 documents about Lucia Formalska . I will post the associated URLs another time.

Ella was widowed by 1954. She filed her USDC/EDNY naturalization petition on 10/14/1954. She was naturalized on 12/9/1954.

petition front and back side -

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMV-HD1H

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMV-HDYT

According to the aforementioned Petition she was born in Dukla on 5/18/1898. She emigrated to the USA on 8/26/1949. Her late husband Moses (deceased) was born in Krosno in September, 1893. They were married at Dukla on 4/4/1922.

Their offspring: Fella born in Poland on 8/25/1926 & Sam born in Poland on 5/7/1923.

NOTE: It's unclear as to where their children were born. If it was in Dukla and recorded at Dukla, their names are probably listed in the JRI-Poland records (not posted but available upon sponsoring the Dukla records indexing project with a nominal donation). Also although there are some surviving Dukla marriage records, the 1922 marriage records are missing / lost.

Ella's sister-in-law "Helene Engel Altholz" (Alfred Altholz's wife) was one of the persons listed under her naturalization petition's "Affidavit of Witnesses" section!

So there you have it.

P.S. - If you're not receiving email notifications whenever somebody posts a new reply, You may need to update your personal profile, in order to automatically continue receiving email notifications whenever another person replies to your "topic". Whenever you are notified by email, there's an option to opt out thereafter. So be sure to review your profile and update the notification choice as may be necessary. Perhaps sometime in the past you inadvertantly elected to not receive automatic email notifications.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

MSBGENE73 — Wed Jul 09, 2025 10:21 am

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 10:21 am

looking for clues wrote:

On the marriage application (April 10, 1947) and license (April 11, 1947) for Anna Adamczyk and William Friedberg that
J-Gen-Expert found https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/11080858 she stated her age as 36, born Dec 17, 1910. Her address was a Brooklyn address. Witnesses were Harriet Altholz and Minna Altholz. Anna's address was the same as Harriet's.

I found an immigration record for an Anna Adamczyk https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94V-YL34?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A24P8-GM5&action=view&cc=1923888&lang=en&groupId= who flew in from Paris on March 28, 1947. Age was listed as 37, estimated birth year 1910, place of birth Chlebna, last residence Paris, final destination Caracas Venezuela

Does any of that fit in with what you know? Did Mendel become Max, with wife Minnie?

Yes this all fits! Max was formerly Mendel and Minna was his wife. Harriet was the wife of Al and Al was Max's brother. Super curious why the final destination was listed as Venezuela. Perhaps that was necessary to get passage to the U.S. at the time due to restrictions or something. Also fascinating she landed March 28th, 1947 and had a marriage application submitted on April 10th, 1947. I am assuming my great-grandfather Max arranged all of this to safely get her to New York and be able to stay. She must have had the marriage annulled or gotten a divorce though as I believe she remarried in 1951 to a different man and was married to him until he passed in 2000 or so.

Re: Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

looking for clues — Wed Jul 09, 2025 1:36 am

Author: looking for clues

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 1:36 am

On the marriage application (April 10, 1947) and license (April 11, 1947) for Anna Adamczyk and William Friedberg that
J-Gen-Expert found https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/11080858 she stated her age as 36, born Dec 17, 1910. Her address was a Brooklyn address. Witnesses were Harriet Altholz and Minna Altholz. Anna's address was the same as Harriet's.

I found an immigration record for an Anna Adamczyk https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94V-YL34?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A24P8-GM5&action=view&cc=1923888&lang=en&groupId= who flew in from Paris on March 28, 1947. Age was listed as 37, estimated birth year 1910, place of birth Chlebna, last residence Paris, final destination Caracas Venezuela

Does any of that fit in with what you know? Did Mendel become Max, with wife Minnie?

Re: Anna Altholz's 1947 NYC marriage record

MSBGENE73 — Tue Jul 08, 2025 4:04 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 4:04 pm

J-Gen-Expert wrote:

Anna was married in 1947 under the name Anna Adamczyk. It was her first marriage according to her marriage license application. Maybe she didn't have her birth record, but had Shoah survivor I.D. with that name. Her digitized marriage application paperwork is at
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/11080858

I do not know how you would go about locating the military registry. However Miriam Weiner's Routes-to-Roots foundation does mention there are some Sanok army recruit records at the Sanok Branch of the PSA. I have not seen the records. It's still possible that Mendel's name is included and there might even be a notation indicating that he was living in the USA. Apparently the authorities used to mine the information from local birth records. The years shown in Miriam's database might be birth years. I presume that Krosno was somehow collectively affiliated with the Sanok military district which emcompassed more than just Sanok.

https://www.rtrfoundation.org/search.php

Enter SANOK and click SEARCH.

Next click on ARMY/RECRUITS

The summary description incudes

Year List: 1869;1874-1879;1881-1899;1901-1909;1937-1939

Zespol/Sygnatura: 135/570;155/24

Maybe that's where all such military records from the region are stored.

Wow this is super cool actually! I don't know why I did not think to look up Anna Adamczyk while doing all of my research after coming across that name in the Arolsen records. This is super interesting because Anna was hidden by a family during WWII and it's a black box about how she even got to the U.S. since none of my living relatives are really sure what happened when I asked them about it. Adamczyk might have been her assumed name during WWII while she was in hiding or something like that. I will have to explore this more.

I'll definitely look into the Routes-to-Roots foundation that you posted.

Thanks again!

Anna Altholz's 1947 NYC marriage record

J-Gen-Expert — Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:21 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:21 pm

Anna was married in 1947 under the name Anna Adamczyk. It was her first marriage according to her marriage license application. Maybe she didn't have her birth record, but had Shoah survivor I.D. with that name. Her digitized marriage application paperwork is at
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/11080858

I do not know how you would go about locating the military registry. However Miriam Weiner's Routes-to-Roots foundation does mention there are some Sanok army recruit records at the Sanok Branch of the PSA. I have not seen the records. It's still possible that Mendel's name is included and there might even be a notation indicating that he was living in the USA. Apparently the authorities used to mine the information from local birth records. The years shown in Miriam's database might be birth years. I presume that Krosno was somehow collectively affiliated with the Sanok military district which emcompassed more than just Sanok.

https://www.rtrfoundation.org/search.php

Enter SANOK and click SEARCH.

Next click on ARMY/RECRUITS

The summary description incudes

Year List: 1869;1874-1879;1881-1899;1901-1909;1937-1939

Zespol/Sygnatura: 135/570;155/24

Maybe that's where all such military records from the region are stored.

Re: Relevant Krosno Jewish Vital Records (indirect proof)

MSBGENE73 — Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 pm

J-Gen-Expert wrote:

I found several Krosno records of interest to your endeavor.

People were free to officially record the birth / marriage / death in any town, not necessarily their place of residence. The records identify the place of residence in terms of the town / village name as well as the Cadastral house number. Also, the birth records usually include the maternal grandparents' names / occupation and where they reside as whether or not they are still living!

Although it's possible to download these digitized images directly from the PSA, it may be necessary for you to hire a private researcher in Poland or perhaps order them directly from the PSA (Polish State Archives), such that they will be authenticated / certified as true copies.

You can also view the images indirectly via JRI-Poland.

1. Mendel's parents (Mechel Altholz & Hena Fischler) officially registered their marriage in Krosno, Poland. The marriage date was noted as 2/23/1904 as per Krosno 1904 Akt # 4. At this time there is no link to a digitized record. The record itself would include the actual place of marriage including the date, as well as remarks as to when and where as well the notarized documention dates, town(s) where issued as well as their unique registration numbers. The couple had to present notarized copies of their own birth records, therefore the marriage record will also include references to those documents.

2. Lea's birth record Lea Fischler / Altholz [Krosno B 1900 # 36]
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=132
Note: Her parents weren't considered legally married until 1904, so her birth record SHOULD HAVE BEEN recorded under the mother's maiden name Fischler. The birth record normally gets amended subsequently with notations indicating the place, date and reference #s, as well as formally changing her legal surname from the mother's surname to the father's surname once the parents become LEGALLY married and show acceptable proof of marriage. Based on what I see, the birth record was NOT amended. Moreover the father's name was omitted. Moreover, the registrar indicated "nieslubne" (not legally married), but nonetheless recorded the mother's name as Hena Altholz instead of Hena Fischler (Hena's legal name!). Lea's legal name will still (technically) Fischler.

3. Chana Reisel Altholz's birth record Krosno B 1907 # 79
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=25

Ella Altholz's Krosno birth record got mis-indexed by JRI-Poland as "Etla Altholz". Here is a link to the digiitized image.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=64

Mendel's birth record was NOT indexed by JRI-Poland, because the 1902 & 1903 Jewish birth records were lost or unavailable. I thought that I had a COMPLETE set of scanned images for 1900 - 1907 but I now know that the 1902 and 1903 births are missing.

The Arolsen Archives (Germany) also has a lot of records including Shoah survivor DP camp registrations, requests for financial assistance (which include handwritten information as to when and where the person was before, during, and after WW2, as well as the name(s) of relatives and relationships, typically names of siblings or cousins in the USA or Palestine, and other personal data. Some but not all of the Arolsen Archives have been indexed and digitized (an on-going project). I do know that they have some so-called Arolsen Red-Line Data / Documents (restricted access due to privacy concerns) which Anna (Anne) Altholz made (inquiries) which identified her married names (or aliases) as Adamcryk (possibly a false-identity name?) and Perlmutter.

I presume that it may still be possible to achieve your goal without a copy of Mendel's birth record.

You need to substantiate that he lived in Poland after 1920 (?) and didn't renounce his Polish citizenship prior to then. Also keep in mind that there is some kind of military registry with the names of males who are eligible for military service. So Mendel Altholz's (Mendel Fischler's) name is probably included on the list. However, it would record his LEGAL NAME (Mendel Fischler instead of Mendel Altholz, as the case may be), based on what's recorded on his birth record, which may or may not have been amended to indicate that his parents were legally married in 1904.

Incidentally, the Mendel Altholz in Dukla who signed the 1926 Polish Friendship book is definitely NOT your great grandfather, since the signatures are those of school children as well as their teachers!!!

You need to keep in mind that birth records are recorded under the mother's surname versus the father's surname depending on whether or not the father accompanied the mother when she registered the child, as well as whether or not the parents were "slubne" (legally married at the time). Unfortunately ritual marriages (the Ketuba document) are not acceptable proof of marriage. The birth record may or may not include the father's name initially, but once the parents obtain a so-called civil marriage document and present it to the town's registrar, the child's record will be amended accordingly. Hence up until that time Mendel and any siblings born prior to the parents' 1904 marriage would indicate Fischler instead of Altholz as the child's legal surname.

Good luck with your endeavor.

This is super helpful, thank you for all of this information and for your well wishes! I actually do have the birth records of some of his siblings and the marriage record for Mechel and Hena straight from the Polish Archives already along with other documents the archives sent over to me. Just my luck 1902 & 1903 have been destroyed in some way.

I have been wondering about Adamcryk since seeing the Arolesen records Anna (formerly Chana) submitted, but Perlmutter makes sense since that was her married name after getting married when she made it to the U.S.

Do you have any idea how one could look into the military registry you mentioned? This could be interesting as I had not thought about this pathway before.

Re: Maybe this will help

MSBGENE73 — Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:29 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:29 pm

Sophia wrote:

Zimorodek wrote:

Maybe the attached file will help a little.
Here is the original link: https://polska1926.pl/podpisy/1050146

Your great-grandfather's signature is on the bottom right. If you need more help just let me know.

This page is from Elementary School located in Dukla (located circa 25km from Chlebna).

Hi Zimorodek and MSBGENE73,

These pages of old signatures are beautiful, aren't they? Almost 100 years old.

The page for Mendel Altholz is the most important one for you, but just because you may find it interesting, here is a link to the page for Rozalia Altholz. She is in the group Klasa III, at the end of line 4. You will see her signature says Altholzówna, which is following old rules of names, but she is correctly indexed as Altholz. I wonder if she is the sibling you have listed by the name of Lea.

https://polska1926.pl/podpisy/1050373

On the same page as Mendel, and five names above his, there is a Rafael Fischler, who may or may not be related to Mendel through his mother whose maiden name was Fischler.

Good luck in your search,
Sophia

Definitely could be relatives of my great-grandfather! Only issue I am seeing is if this is from 1926 then I know it is not my great-grandfather's signature. These people could easily be cousins or the children of cousins though given the year / age. i will have to look into this further.

Re: Maybe this will help

MSBGENE73 — Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:26 pm

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:26 pm

Zimorodek wrote:

I somehow missed these responses, sorry about that! It seems this list is from 1926 which would be after my great-grandfather left Poland. I believe this is another Mendel Altholz as crazy as this sounds. If I am incorrect in this being from 1926, please do let me know.

Relevant Krosno Jewish Vital Records (indirect proof)

J-Gen-Expert — Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:33 pm

Author: J-Gen-Expert

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:33 pm

I found several Krosno records of interest to your endeavor.

People were free to officially record the birth / marriage / death in any town, not necessarily their place of residence. The records identify the place of residence in terms of the town / village name as well as the Cadastral house number. Also, the birth records usually include the maternal grandparents' names / occupation and where they reside as whether or not they are still living!

Although it's possible to download these digitized images directly from the PSA, it may be necessary for you to hire a private researcher in Poland or perhaps order them directly from the PSA (Polish State Archives), such that they will be authenticated / certified as true copies.

You can also view the images indirectly via JRI-Poland.

1. Mendel's parents (Mechel Altholz & Hena Fischler) officially registered their marriage in Krosno, Poland. The marriage date was noted as 2/23/1904 as per Krosno 1904 Akt # 4. At this time there is no link to a digitized record. The record itself would include the actual place of marriage including the date, as well as remarks as to when and where as well the notarized documention dates, town(s) where issued as well as their unique registration numbers. The couple had to present notarized copies of their own birth records, therefore the marriage record will also include references to those documents.

2. Lea's birth record Lea Fischler / Altholz [Krosno B 1900 # 36]
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=132
Note: Her parents weren't considered legally married until 1904, so her birth record SHOULD HAVE BEEN recorded under the mother's maiden name Fischler. The birth record normally gets amended subsequently with notations indicating the place, date and reference #s, as well as formally changing her legal surname from the mother's surname to the father's surname once the parents become LEGALLY married and show acceptable proof of marriage. Based on what I see, the birth record was NOT amended. Moreover the father's name was omitted. Moreover, the registrar indicated "nieslubne" (not legally married), but nonetheless recorded the mother's name as Hena Altholz instead of Hena Fischler (Hena's legal name!). Lea's legal name will still (technically) Fischler.

3. Chana Reisel Altholz's birth record Krosno B 1907 # 79
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=25

Ella Altholz's Krosno birth record got mis-indexed by JRI-Poland as "Etla Altholz". Here is a link to the digiitized image.
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/22559320?p_p_id=Jednostka&_Jednostka_delta=1&_Jednostka_cur=64

Mendel's birth record was NOT indexed by JRI-Poland, because the 1902 & 1903 Jewish birth records were lost or unavailable. I thought that I had a COMPLETE set of scanned images for 1900 - 1907 but I now know that the 1902 and 1903 births are missing.

The Arolsen Archives (Germany) also has a lot of records including Shoah survivor DP camp registrations, requests for financial assistance (which include handwritten information as to when and where the person was before, during, and after WW2, as well as the name(s) of relatives and relationships, typically names of siblings or cousins in the USA or Palestine, and other personal data. Some but not all of the Arolsen Archives have been indexed and digitized (an on-going project). I do know that they have some so-called Arolsen Red-Line Data / Documents (restricted access due to privacy concerns) which Anna (Anne) Altholz made (inquiries) which identified her married names (or aliases) as Adamcryk (possibly a false-identity name?) and Perlmutter.

I presume that it may still be possible to achieve your goal without a copy of Mendel's birth record.

You need to substantiate that he lived in Poland after 1920 (?) and didn't renounce his Polish citizenship prior to then. Also keep in mind that there is some kind of military registry with the names of males who are eligible for military service. So Mendel Altholz's (Mendel Fischler's) name is probably included on the list. However, it would record his LEGAL NAME (Mendel Fischler instead of Mendel Altholz, as the case may be), based on what's recorded on his birth record, which may or may not have been amended to indicate that his parents were legally married in 1904.

Incidentally, the Mendel Altholz in Dukla who signed the 1926 Polish Friendship book is definitely NOT your great grandfather, since the signatures are those of school children as well as their teachers!!!

You need to keep in mind that birth records are recorded under the mother's surname versus the father's surname depending on whether or not the father accompanied the mother when she registered the child, as well as whether or not the parents were "slubne" (legally married at the time). Unfortunately ritual marriages (the Ketuba document) are not acceptable proof of marriage. The birth record may or may not include the father's name initially, but once the parents obtain a so-called civil marriage document and present it to the town's registrar, the child's record will be amended accordingly. Hence up until that time Mendel and any siblings born prior to the parents' 1904 marriage would indicate Fischler instead of Altholz as the child's legal surname.

Good luck with your endeavor.

Re: Maybe this will help

Sophia — Fri Jun 20, 2025 7:51 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2025 7:51 am

Zimorodek wrote:

Maybe this will help

Zimorodek — Wed Jun 18, 2025 11:43 am

Author: Zimorodek

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2025 11:43 am

Maybe the attached file will help a little.
Here is the original link: https://polska1926.pl/podpisy/1050146

Your great-grandfather's signature is on the bottom right. If you need more help just let me know.

This page is from Elementary School located in Dukla (located circa 25km from Chlebna).

Birth Record Or Any Proof Of Life for Great-Grandfather

MSBGENE73 — Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:43 am

Author: MSBGENE73

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:43 am

I was able to get quite a bit of documentation sent over to me by an agency that is helping me with Polish Citizenship, but there is a brick wall we have hit in terms of finding anything in the State Archives for my great-grandfather despite finding birth records, marriage records, death records, etc for his parents and siblings. My great-grandfather seems to be a "ghost" for lack of a better term.

Name: Mendel Altholz
DOB: 1902 or 1903 (I've seen November 15th 1903 and December 15th 1903 listed on different U.S. Paperwork)
Town: Chlebna, Poland
Parents: Mechel Altholz and Hena Fischler
Siblings: Ella, Chana, Moses, Sara, Rachel, Lea

In my various attempts to get more info, someone did share this with me https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/zespol?p_p_id=Zespol&_Zespol_javax.portlet.action=zmienWidok&_Zespol_nameofjsp=pradziad&_Zespol_id_zespolu=90008595&_Zespol_rowId=9000042479&_Zespol_cur=1 which seems to indicate 1902 and 1903 are missing which is likely due to them being destroyed.

I am wondering if there is anything I could dig up outside of a birth record to prove he was actually in Poland and therefore was a Polish Citizen since he did not naturalize in the U.S. until 1934.

Any help is greatly appreciated!