PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Thank you again Gilberto. This is an inspiration to keep searching, as well as a translation .. Best, Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:32 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:32 pm

kzgupta wrote:

Gilberto, Elzbieta,

I made a trip to The Family History Center today to review a few years on Microfilm I believe that I have found the birth record for Anna Swierczewska in 1838 ( between the 1837 and 1839 for the other Annas in the records !) Can I ask for your help with translation again ?

Also, for larger context, I could NOT find any birth record for an Anna Lazicki between 1836 and 1839 in Dzierzgowo Parish. Next step would be to check if Franciszek lost his first Anna and then remarried to another Anna. If that's not in the records from the 1860s, then I think I have to conclude that this Anna is my great-great grandmother.

Look forward to hearing from you... Regards, Kathy

40. Krery
Dzierzgowo, 14/26 March, 1838
Declarant (father) Maciej Swierczewski, farmer in Krery, 32,
and witnesses
Jakob Rybczynski, 21 ? and
Wawrzyniec Ciesliki? , 25, both farmers in Krery
presented us a child of the feminine sex
born in Krery yesterday at 3 a.m. (therefore on March 25)
from his (declarant) wife Jozefa Lazicki, 31 (therefore Lazicki is Anna's middle name)
The child was Christened on the same day and received the name
ANNA.
Godparents were Jakob Rybczynski and Katarzyna Lazicka (sister of Jozefa?)

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:18 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:18 pm

kzgupta wrote:

Anna's name ? in the Index for 1838 ( the first year with an Index !)

Yes, that's her. Anna, córka Macieja and Jozefy Swierczewski (Anna, daughter of Maciej and Jozefa Swierczewski. Swierczewski here is the surname of the father).

Gilberto

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:01 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:01 pm

Anna's name ? in the Index for 1838 ( the first year with an Index !)

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:55 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:55 pm

Gilberto, Elzbieta,

I made a trip to The Family History Center today to review a few years on Microfilm I believe that I have found the birth record for Anna Swierczewska in 1838 ( between the 1837 and 1839 for the other Annas in the records !) Can I ask for your help with translation again ?

Also, for larger context, I could NOT find any birth record for an Anna Lazicki between 1836 and 1839 in Dzierzgowo Parish. Next step would be to check if Franciszek lost his first Anna and then remarried to another Anna. If that's not in the records from the 1860s, then I think I have to conclude that this Anna is my great-great grandmother.

Look forward to hearing from you... Regards, Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:43 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:43 pm

I will need to order Microfilm 723621 and it will take a few weeks to arrive in NY. I never dreamed I would be able to go back so far.
I will also look for a marriage record for Wojciech and Franciszka in the films that I can access.
1818 seems to be a missing year, but her age may not be exact anyway and it is worth looking for both of their birth records.

So many interesting puzzle pieces...

Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:15 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:15 pm

Kathy,

I am sure that the names written on records are those given by persons reporting the death. If they do not remember, it is written unknown. From quite recent personal experience in Warsaw (year 2000).

It does not mean Franciszka was orphan, or abandoned child. It means that neither Wojciech nor Jozef could not recall her parents names when the scribe was writing death record.

If you have access to LDS microfilms, then please try to dig more from 1818.

Elzbieta

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:09 am

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:09 am

Gilberto and Elzbieta,

My thanks for this translation go well beyond anything I could ever express in writing.

It was both sad and very moving to read it. It's one thing to know that women died young in that era. It's another to see a death record at age 44 for your great-great-great grandmother. Franciszka and Wojciech will be the earliest documented people to date on the Family Tree. When I started this project two years ago, we weren't even sure that we could find the place in Poland that the family came from. Now we can trace back almost a century with names of real people from these records. With your help, ancestors who were forgotten will now be remembered by future generations and that there will be a better understanding of their lives.

I'm not an expert but this is the first time I've seen a death record where the names of the parents of the deceased are UNKNOWN. Is this a little odd ? Perhaps I can find her marriage record, or even a birth record with more information. If the age is accurate and her birth year is 1818, then that's the one year missing from the LDS Microfilms.

With much appreciation,
Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 am

Bonjour,

It is a death certificate, written by Wiktor (), in charge of keeping records in Dzierzgowice.

Line 7. It did happen in Dzierzgowice on 6 December // [1]
Line 8. 1862 at 3 pm.
Line 9. Appeared Wojciech Jaroch, 45 years old, and Jozef
Line 10. Jaroch 30 years old, both farmers in Grzymki,
Line 11. and stated that on 23 December
Line 12. current year at 6 am. passed away in Grzymki
Line 13. Franciszka born Lewandowska, Jaroch, 44 years old,
Line 14. staying with his husband in Grzymki, born in Baki
Line 15. parents unknown, leaving widowed
Line 16. husband mentionned above Wojciech Jaroch. After eye evidence
Line 17. that Franciszka Jaroch passed away that act
Line 18. stating it was read to unable reading by us and
Line 19. was signed. Wiktor (...)
Line 20. in charge of keeping records.

Note by scribe, me:
[1] You cannot state on Dec 6th that someone is passing away on Dec 23rd the same year, I suspect the word "dwadziescia" missing, and think it should be 26 December.

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:30 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:30 am

Lack of attention, my fault. A note on the upper left states "dwadziastego" (20). I believe it was a correction for the correct date: dwudziastego szostego = 26 (date of the declaration); 23 (date of the death).

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 am

119.Grzymki.
Dzierzgowo, 6 December 1862. at 3 p.m.
Wojciech Jaroch, 45 years old, and Jozef Jaroch, 30 years old,
farmers in Grzymki, declared that on December 23 *, at 6 a.m., in Grzymki
passed away Franciszka (nee Lawandowski) Jaroch, 44 years old,
born in Bąki, name of her parents is unknown. She was survived by her husband Wojciech Jaroch.
* = something wrong here. If they declared her death on Dec 6, then she must have died on Nov 23 (Listopada, in polish).

Baki and Grzymki are places around Dziergowo. See mapa.szukacz.pl

Gilberto

Second Jaroch Record

kzgupta — Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:40 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:40 pm

Here it is.. had some trouble sending earlier... Kathy

Another Jaroch Record

kzgupta — Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:05 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:05 pm

Gilberto, Elzbieta

I went back to my computer and found some older scans with the name Jaroch that were never translated. In Record 119, I can see the names of Wojiech and Franciszka which you identified in the last translation. Perhaps there is some interesting information to be found here ? I still hope to go to the Family History Center this weekend to look for Anna's birth record. Your thoughts are much appreciated... Regards, Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:00 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:00 pm

Thank you again Gilberto. I know that I can access Microfilms 623 and 624, perhaps as soon as next weekend. I will let you know if I find anything. Best, Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:15 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:15 am

Kathy,

Currently, Krery is part of the Dzierzgowo parish (see here http://www.diecezjaplocka.pl/index.php?akcja=spis_wyswietlParafie&p_id=53).
Dzierzgowo LDS films:
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw 1808-1810 -- Akta urodzeń 1810-1811 -- Akta małżeństw 1810-1812 -- Akta zgonów 1808-1812 -- Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1819-1821 - FHL INTL Film [ 723621 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1821-1823, 1825 - FHL INTL Film [ 723622 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1826-1835 - FHL INTL Film [ 723623 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1836-1841 - FHL INTL Film [ 723624 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1842-1847 - FHL INTL Film [ 723625 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1848-1855 - FHL INTL Film [ 723626 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1856-1861 - FHL INTL Film [ 723627 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1862-1865 - FHL INTL Film [ 723628 ]
Akta urodzeń 1866-1876 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808640 Items 3 - 4 ]
Akta małżeństw 1866-1872 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808640 Item 5 ]
Akta małżeństw 1866-1888 -- Akta zgonów 1866-1882 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808641 ]
Akta zgonów 1882-1890 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808642 Items 1-2 ]
Akta zgonów 1891-1899 - FHL INTL Film [ 2084393 Item 5 ]
Gilberto

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

kzgupta — Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Author: kzgupta

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Gilberto and Elzbieta,

You are both very kind to spend so much time on this translation. I am fascinated by the discussion back and forth.

Now that I know where Anna was born, I think the next step is for me to go back to The Family History Center here and check the microfilms of the Dzierzgowo parish records ( assuming Krery is in the same parish ) which go back to the 1830s. I should be able to find birth records for her and for Franciszek. There were no Indexes for the records in the 1830s, so the shortcut for me, as a non-Polish speaker was to start with the village names in the records. I was also seeing later records for Jaroch children (older than Tekla) and it will be interesting to see what their mother's name is.

I may not be able to get back there for another week or two.

I now feel more certain that this Franciszek is my great -great grandfather. The question is: Did he have two wives both named Anna, or one wife who used a different surname in the marriage record ?

There is a small community named Ruda very close to Dzierzgowo.

I have English translations of the other three records, if either of you would like to see them.

I'm looking forward to further conversation and solving the mystery !

Thank you both again,
Kathy

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

You are correct for Lawendowski, the zoom confirms.

Isn't it fun to read old texts Gilberto?

On the second reading, I see that one of witnesses is Jan Lazicki, 34 years old, and, zoom confirms, the name of Jozefa is Lazicka (not Laziecka, as I scripted). It is quite possible Jan and Jozefa are family, brother and sister?

Kathy wrote about Anna Lazicka, 2 years elder that Anna Swierczewska. She could be a younger sister of Jozefa - if Jozefa is 40, she could have a sister 20 years younger, it was quite common at that time to have 15-20 years between the elder child and the youngest one.

Kind regards,
Elzbieta

Yes, it is, mainly considering I am not a Polish reader. I have just learned how to "decipher" them.
I had noticed the similarity of surnames between Jan and Jozefa. I assume they were brother and sister, due to their ages.
I think both Annas are the same person but that would need to be confirmed through other records. Which is not to say they were not sisters.

Regards
Gilberto

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:10 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:10 pm

You are correct for Lawendowski, the zoom confirms.

Isn't it fun to read old texts Gilberto?

On the second reading, I see that one of witnesses is Jan Lazicki, 34 years old, and, zoom confirms, the name of Jozefa is Lazicka (not Laziecka, as I scripted). It is quite possible Jan and Jozefa are family, brother and sister?

Kathy wrote about Anna Lazicka, 2 years elder that Anna Swierczewska. She could be a younger sister of Jozefa - if Jozefa is 40, she could have a sister 20 years younger, it was quite common at that time to have 15-20 years between the elder child and the youngest one.

Kind regards,
Elzbieta

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Anonymous — Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Kathy, Gilberto,

I prefer to transcript into Polish first, then translate into English.
It is always tricky to do things on the fly.

In my transcript into Polish attachement I numbered lines for the sake of comparaison to the manuscript. When a word was splitted into two lines, I ended it on the first one.

Text is not allowed as an attachement, therefore I made a PDF.

Line 4. It did happen in the village Dzierzgowie on January 24 [1]
Line 5. year 1858 at 1
Line 6. pm. Knowing what they are doing and with conscious witness presents [2]
Line 7. Jan Lazicki, farmer from Czary, 34 years old,
Line 8. and Jan Rynkowski, 28 years old, the innkeeper
Line 9. from Brzozow Nowy. As of today we celebrate
Line 10. this religious marriage between Franciszek Jaroch in Dembe
Line 11. staying with his parents, single man, age 21
Line 12. born in Luczymin, son of Wojciech and
Line 13. Franciszka born Lewandowska, marriage Jaroch, and Miss
Line 14. Anna Swierczewska, daughter of Maciej and Jozefa born Laziecka, marriage
Line 15. Swierczewski, age 19, in Czary
Line 16. staying with her parents, born in Krety. The marriage ceremony
Line 17. was preceeded by 3 announcements on the following dates: 29th
Line 18. December last year, 5th and 12th January current
Line 19. year in Parishes Malokrzyzowleska and Dzierzgowska, cause
Line 20. announcement was made on both sides. Marriage's lessons were not done.
Line 21. The new married stated they did not sign prenuptial
Line 22. agreement. This document was read by us to the newmarried and theit witness
Line 23. not knowing to read, then signed.
Line 24.
Line 25.
Line 26. notes from transliterator
Line 27. [1] above "24" it is written "12", one can guess "24" is in Polish (universal) calendar and above it is in Russian (12 days of difference)
Line 30. [2] two words "wiadomo czynieni" is probably old Polish, meaning they know what they are doing
Line 31. [3] orthographe, written "kaczmarz", today should be "karczmarz"

Have a very happy New Year 2013

Witaj, Ela!

Thanks for filling the gaps.
Just would like to add two notes:
The name of her birth place is Krery (declensioned as Krerach on the record). Two miles southwest of Dzierzgowo.
Lawendowski. I am pretty aware of how common the Lewandowski surname is in Poland (and elsewhere) but I preferred to transcribed as it was in this record. Since I have seen tons of Lawendowski in oldest records I leave it to the researcher further research in order to determine if his/her Lawendowski ended up as Lewandowski or not.

Pozdrawiam,
Gilberto

Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:18 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:18 pm

A little follow up on names.

This old document states the birth record for each on new married, which should be explained:

Franciszek Jaroch:
son of Wojciech (name Jaroch not written) and Franciszka born Lewandowska

then add "marriage Jaroch" which mean "panstwo Jaroch" in today Polish, "M et Mme Jaroch" in French, and "M and Ms Jaroch" in English.

The similar Anna Swierczewska:
daughter of Maciej (Swierczewski not written) and Jozefa born Laziecka,

Then add "marriage Swierczewski" which mean "panstwo Swierczewscy" in today Polish, or "M and Ms Swierczewski" in English.

Without commas, and a clear template, it might be confused - but no single doubt, Anna was a daughter of her parents !