PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

roseanne — Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Author: roseanne

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Thank you Gilberto and Elzbieta for the information. I will try to access Geneteka again, but already have those records. Don't know why my search brought no results. Maybe I'm missing out on other searches I've done.
Roseanne

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:05 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:05 am

roseanne wrote:

My Walenty was born in 1834; surname is Sobeski. I am attaching that record. In a previous chat, Dave sent an image of Sobeski listings retrieved from Geneteka. I could not access that same page no matter what I entered. But I believe the 1837 entry for (brak imenia) Sobeski is Walenty's brother, Maxymilian. I am attaching that record also. Even though there is no given name, I know he is my great grandfather because of other records I have linked. Later records have the surname spelled Sobecki. I hope this helps. Thank you.
Roseanne

Roseanne,

I typed it in Polish, and made just a summary of facts in English.

I could access Genetka, and can confirm you that your record of Maxymilian is an exact copy of number 11 in the books.

One can easily see from those acts that the age is very approximative. It's better to deduce their age from the date of birth.
In 1834 Marcin Sobeski is 45, Anna Duchalska 30.
In 1837 Marcin Sobeski is 51, Anna Duchalska 40.
In 1843 Marcin Sobeski is 59, passing away.

Kind regards,
Elzbieta

==

Walenty Sobeski
7.

Dzialo sie we wsi Blenna, dnia czternastego lutego tysiac osiemset trzydziestego czwartego roku o godzinie jedenastej przed poludniem. Stawil sie Marcin Sobeski, kucharz w Gogolach zamieszkaly, lat czterdziesci piec majacy, w obecnosci Szczepana Umielewskiego lat trzydziesci trzy, tudziez Jana Bialorzeckiego lat szescdziesiat dwa majacych, obydwoch komornikow w Gogolach zamieszkalych, i okazal nam dziecie plci meskiej, urodzone w Gogolach dnia osmego biezacego miesiaca i roku o godzinie dziesiatej wieczor z jego malzonki Anny z Duchalskich lat trzydziesci majacej. Dziecieciu temu na chrzcie swietym odbytym w dniu dzisiejszym nadane zostaly imiona Walenty Lucjan a rodzicami jego chrzestnymi byli Felix Swierczynski i Jozefa Nitowska. Akt ten stawiajacym i swiadkom przeczytany ktorzy pisac nie umieja przez nas podpisany zostal. A.F.Salomonski – parafii

14.02.1834 11:00 morning BAPTISM in Blenna
father Marcin Sobeski, cook, age 45
witness Szczepan Umielewski, komornik, age 33
witness Jan Bialorzecki, komornik, age 62
a boy, born 08.02.1834 at 22:00 in Gogoly
mother Anna Duchalska, age 30
boy names: Walenty Lucjan
Godparents: Felix Swierczynski i Jozefa Nitowska

---

Maxymilian Sobeski
Numer 11 Gogoly

Dzialo sie we wsi Blenna, dnia dwudziestego osmego marca tysiac osiemset trzydziestego siodmego roku o godzinie czwartej po poludniu. Stawil sie Marcin Sobeski, kucharz w Gogolach zamieszkaly, lat piecdziesiat jeden majacy w obecnosci Jana Bieloruskiego, wyrobnika lat piecdziesiat dziewiec, tudziez Szymona Mytakowskiego komornika lat trzydziesci dwa majacego, w Gogolach zamieszkalych, i okazal nam dziecie plci meskiej urodzone w Gogolach dnia dwudziestego czwartego miesiaca i roku biezacego o godzienie czwartej rano z jego malzonki Anny z Duchalskich lat czterdziesci majacej. Dziecieciu temu na chrzcie swietym odbytym w dniu dziesiejszym nadane zostalo imie () a rodzicami jego chrzestnemi byli --- Augustyn Bogatko i – Janina Dabrowska. Akt ten stawiajacym i swiadkom przeczytany ktorzy pisac nie umieja przez nas podpisany zostal.

28.03.1837 16:00 BAPTISM in Blenna
father Marcin Sobeski, cook, age 51
witness Jan Bieloruski, laborer, age 59
witness Szymon Mytakowski, komornik, age 32
a boy, born 24.03.1834 at 04:00 morning in Gogoly
mother Anna Duchalska, age 40
boy names:
Godparents: Augustyn Bogatko i – Janina Dabrowska

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:07 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:07 pm

Roseanne,

No doubt it is a male child (plci meskiej). Gogoły is next door to Blenna. Map attached.

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

roseanne — Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:44 pm

Author: roseanne

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:44 pm

My Walenty was born in 1834; surname is Sobeski. I am attaching that record. In a previous chat, Dave sent an image of Sobeski listings retrieved from Geneteka. I could not access that same page no matter what I entered. But I believe the 1837 entry for (brak imenia) Sobeski is Walenty's brother, Maxymilian. I am attaching that record also. Even though there is no given name, I know he is my great grandfather because of other records I have linked. Later records have the surname spelled Sobecki. I hope this helps. Thank you.
Roseanne

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:18 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:18 am

roseanne wrote:

Years ago, I had a birth record translated for Marcin's son Walenty. It mentioned a location of Blenna/Gogoty (Gogoly) and his occupation of cook.
Roseanne

Roseanne,

SobeCki or SobeSki, and http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/ database

The stylish handwtitten document is confusing, SobeCki or SobeSki, if you know Marcin is SobeCki, do not loose him!

If Walenty is a son of Marcin, then it's important to have them both with the same name in Geneteka database.
We have in Genetaka Walenty SobeCki, born in 1827 (is he your Walenty?):
Księga - Urodzenia (U)
60 1827 12 Walenty Sobecki Karnkowo
and your Marcin recorded as SobeSki, passed away in 1843:
Księga Zgony (Z)
1843 12 Marcin Sobeski Błenna

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

roseanne — Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:23 am

Author: roseanne

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:23 am

Elzbieta, Dave, and Gilberto: Thanks to everyone for the wonderful history lesson and search tips for my ancestor. This is truly a pot of gold for me. Years ago, I had a birth record translated for Marcin's son Walenty. It mentioned a location of Blenna/Gogoty (Gogoly) and his occupation of cook. I must learn to sort out village, town, city, and district as I continue to find records for my family. Thank you.
Roseanne

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Dave,

Thanks, but I wasn't trying to get this record. Actually, I wanted to clarify why Geneteka did not display any results for Sobeski.
In all my searches there I have never checked the box 'exact name' because a surname may have been transcribed with or without the polish diacritics.
This way, by typing Goscinski it would return both Goscinski and Gościński. Why has Geneteka not displayed any result for Sobeski? Either it is a failure in Geneteka search engine or it is because the information is linked to the ZOSIA system. Whatever it is, I think researchers must be aware of this issue (and Geneteka administrators, too) in order not to think their ancestors were not found in Geneteka database.

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

dnowicki — Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:30 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:30 pm

The scan is attached.

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm

Gilberto,

The word is "komorne" - na komornem mieszkajacy.
Komorne is what you pay to a landlord to rent an appartment.
Another Polish word is czynsz.

The interesting ethymology here, it cames from
http://www.etymologia.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik+etymologiczny/komora
You will find two meanings for komornik:
tenant and bailiff; poor and representing the power.

I do believe people lived in rented places, but probably the name "komorne" was used for flats only.

In Przemysl there is a number of "kamienice czynszowe" (that was a name used before WWII), which was buildings with flats for rent.

The English word is tenement, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement

Elzbieta

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:41 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:41 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Gilberto,

It is Błenna, see the end of the story in my previous message.
Thank you!

Elzbieta

I am glad my first assumption was right. One more thing: you have read 'komeren' and I though it was "komorowie", that's why I mentioned the near village of Komorowo. Two things draw my attention here: I have never seen - through hundreds of records - any mention to a person living in a rented place; and that leads me to the second question: why it is 'komeren' written with a capital K?

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:38 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:38 pm

dnowicki wrote:

Roseanne,
If you would like to obtain a clearer scan of the record, visit http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl and click on Kujawsko-Pomorskie and then select Blenna zgony and type in your great, great grandfather's surname. The results will give you a link to the scanned record of his death which can be downloaded.
Dave

Dave,

There is a mistery here. I have tried Geneteka after replying to Roseanne and came up with no results, in any province, for Sobeski/Sobecki.
Now I have seen your post and followed your steps but, once again, no results for Sobeski/Sobecki in Blenna death records.

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm

Gilberto,

It is Błenna, see the end of the story in my previous message.
Thank you!

Elzbieta

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:12 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:12 pm

dnowicki wrote:

Roseanne,
Since you attached a scan of the death record, I'm sure that you are well aware that the name of the parish (and the village) is Blenna. The form in the record is Blenny which is the Locative Singular, the case which is governed by the preposition w.
...
Dave

Dave,

I belive with your help, plus the second reading of attached document we are on the correct path.
One more correction and we are done.

The handwritten Bł---y is in fact Bł---ej, the end is a letter "j", miejscownik, locative.

We all got confused by the stylish handwritting, there is no "y" at the end, but "ej".
===line 1. Dzialo sie we wsi Błennej
===line 4. obydwaj tu, w Błennej zamieszkali
===line 7. w Błennej na komornem mieszkajacy

1.mianownik (kto? co?) Błenna
2.dopełniacz (kogo? czego?) Błennej
3.celownik (komu? czemu?) Błennej
4.biernik (kogo? co?) Błenną
5.narzędnik ((z) kim? (z) czym?) Błenną
6.miejscownik (o kim? o czym?) Błennej

It declines like for example Zielona.

Błenna is on page 247, powiat Kolski, gmina Izbica
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/247
Goggle says it's 9 km from Izbica Kujawska, Poland.

Elzbieta

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

dnowicki — Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:30 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:30 pm

Roseanne,
Since you attached a scan of the death record, I'm sure that you are well aware that the name of the parish (and the village) is Blenna. The form in the record is Blenny which is the Locative Singular, the case which is governed by the preposition w. If you would like to obtain a clearer scan of the record, visit http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl and click on Kujawsko-Pomorskie and then select Blenna zgony and type in your great, great grandfather's surname. The results will give you a link to the scanned record of his death which can be downloaded. As far as his occupation is concerned---it seems that he was a tenant farmer since Blenna is a rural village. I'm familiar with many villages in the part of Poland since a large number of my ancestors and relatives came from that area. Attached is a bit of information about Blenna. Of course, the church building is later than the parish church at the time of his death.
Hope this helps a little.
Dave

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Hi Roseanne,

I tried to get as much as possible, here my findings and translation.
The stylish handwriting of your document is indeen painful.

Kind regards,
Elisabeth

Elzbieta,

On the record below I read "umarl w Roguskach Tomasz Marcinkowski". If Rog* is a declensioned form of a place's name perhaps it could help identify the correct name for "Bl...y", because these are records from the same parish.

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:24 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:24 pm

Hi Roseanne,

I tried to get as much as possible, here my findings and translation.
The stylish handwriting of your document is indeen painful.

Kind regards,
Elisabeth

Bł --- y?
Starts with B, ends with y: Bł --- y
Possible letters are among small ones in lowercase (a, c, e, i, m, n, o, r, s, u, w, z), i.e. when handwritten on a school paper with 3 lines, those letters stay below the middle line.
I would say without diacritics (no dot, no ogonek, no acute), because there is none in the Akt, three time the name is handwritten – but who knows for that so stylish letters?

The very beginning “Dzialo sie we wsi Bł --- y” is a nominative declension, imply that “y” MUST be the last letter of the place name.

The place “Bł --- y” is within Królestwo Polskie (the text says that Marcin Solecki was born “abroad of Królestwo” – urodzony za granica Królestwa).

I checked the “Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich” where all names of that time are recorded (BTW fantastic work to have it indexed), all names starting with Bł and ending with y.
Start page http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/245
End page http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/255

Three names with “y” at the end:
1. Błaziny (powiat Iłza)
2. Błazy (przysiolek wsi Krowica)
3. Błyszczowody (8 km na wschod od Zołkwi)

Re 1. Today we have two Błaziny, Dolne and Gorne, both 2 or 4 km distance from Iłza, in Mazowieckie

Re 2. One cannot find it today. Not much in the old geography book. There are few Krowica, mainly close to Lubaczow and Kalisz,cf. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krowica
An aside finding: there is a Baptist Church in Krowice, see http://www.baptysci.pl/component/content/article/192-aktualnosci/2147-swiatowy-dzien-modlitwy-podziekowanie-za-ofiarnosc

Re 3. Błyszczowody are un Ukraina today - Żółkiew, L'vivs'ka oblast, Ukraine

More information from you could help.

==Transcript and translation

Numer 12

Dzialo sie we wsi Bł --- y dnia osmego sierpnia tysiac osiemset czterdziestego trzeciego roku o godzinie drugiej po poludniu. Stawili sie Franciszek Zewierzchonski, szewc, lat dwadziescia osiem, tudziez Kazimierz Palicki, gospodarz, lat czterdziesci dwa liczacy, obydwaj tu, w Bł --- y zamieszkali, i oswiadczyli ze w dniu szostym biezacego miesiac i roku o godzinie drugiej po poludniu umarl Marcin Sobecki lat piecdziesiac dziewiec liczacy, we wsi Bł --- y na komornem mieszkajacy, urodzony za granica Krolestwa, pozostawiawszy po sobie owdowiala zone Anne z Duchalskich. Po przekonaniu sie naocznie odejscia Sobeckiego, Akt ten stawajacym przeczytany, a ze pisac nie umieja, przez nas tylko podpisany. K.Salomon

It did happen in the village of Bl --- y the eighth day of August one thousand eight hundred and forty-third year, at two o'clock in the afternoon. There appeared Zewierzchonski Franciszek, shoemaker, aged twenty-eight, and also Kazimierz Palicki, farmer, aged forty-two, both living in the Bl --- y, and said that in the sixth day of the current month and year at two o'clock in the afternoon passed away Marcin Sobecki, fifty-nine years old, in the village Bl --- y, in a rented place, born abroad of the Kingdom of Poland; he leaves a widowed wife Anna born Duchalska. After the eyewitnessing that Sobecki passed away, this act was read to the present, and as they do not know how to write, we just signed. K.Salomon

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

roseanne — Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:54 pm

Author: roseanne

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:54 pm

Gilberto, Thank you very much for the quick reply. Yes, the record is not a good copy when I originally got it. The age, date, and location allows me to trace backward to find a marriage or birth record. Thanks again, Roseanne

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:47 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:47 am

I believe the places are Blenna (presented in a declensioned form, Blenny, and Komorowo, just 3 miles West.

Gilberto

Re: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

Anonymous — Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:34 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:34 am

Roseanne,
Day of the record: 8 august 1843
at 2 p.m.
witness Franciszek Szwierchowski (not sure), 28, and
Kazimierz Palicki (not sure), 42, both residing in ....Bleszny?
day of the death: 6 same month and year. at 2 p.m.
Marcin Sobeski, 59 years old, born in... Krolestwa (Kingdom of Poland)
mentions his wife Anna Duchalska, but I cannot tell if she was alive or not.

Gilberto

Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska

roseanne — Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:02 am

Author: roseanne

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:02 am

I would appreciate help with the attached record. This is an 1843 death record for my grandfather's grandfather, Marcin Sobecki. His wife is Anny Duchalska. What is the day/month of death? Does the record give age and occupation? Thank you.