PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:59 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:59 pm

I do not know if everyone was present during this ceremony, but it is possible that another person may represent the absent one. More than 2 sponsors / godparents is typical for an evangelical ceremony.

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:34 pm

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:34 pm

BarbOslo wrote:

No. 33 Emil Henryk Lombard
It happened in the town of Warszawa on June 25th/July 7th, 1852, at 5 p.m.
Appeared Wilhelm LOMBARD, a private teacher/tutor, 57 years old, residing in Warszawa at no. 1359, in the presence of Jan Jakub DE CASTRES de TERSAC, a private teacher/tutor, residing in Warszawa at no.604, 38 years old, and Jakub Karol GRESSER, inspector of the Polish bank printing house, residing in Warszawa at no. 773, 73 years old, and presented to us a male child, who was born in Warszawa at no. 1359 on April 16th/28th of the current year at 3 p.m., to his legal wife Wirginia née PERRIN, 39 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today the child was given the names Emil Henryk, and his godparents were Emil HIGNET, clerk in the office of the war governor of the city of Warsaw and Mrs. Jozefa Marcelina MNIEWSKA, who was replaced by Lucia RUBICKA, as well as August DAUBAN, a ship's captain with Mrs. Henrieta (Henryka) LOMBARD nee PEJROT, and Henryk Martin (Marcin) and Mrs. Ludwika Stefania LOMBARD.
This act was delayed due to the weakness of the child's mother was read to the father and the witnesses, and signed by them.
X. Józef Spleczyński, pastor
Witness signatures

Thank very much for your quick answer
So if i understand well, the child has several godfathers and godmothers ?
And do you think that the persons mentionned but who did not sign were present too ? Because it's quite odd that some were ever gone to Poland, for example Henrieta PEIROT (uncle's wife) or August DAUBAN (half-uncle)

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:11 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:11 pm

No. 33 Emil Henryk Lombard
It happened in the town of Warszawa on June 25th/July 7th, 1852, at 5 p.m.
Appeared Wilhelm LOMBARD, a private teacher/tutor, 57 years old, residing in Warszawa at no. 1359, in the presence of Jan Jakub DE CASTRES de TERSAC, a private teacher/tutor, residing in Warszawa at no.604, 38 years old, and Jakub Karol GRESSER, inspector of the Polish bank printing house, residing in Warszawa at no. 773, 73 years old, and presented to us a male child, who was born in Warszawa at no. 1359 on April 16th/28th of the current year at 3 p.m., to his legal wife Wirginia née PERRIN, 39 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today the child was given the names Emil Henryk, and his godparents were Emil HIGNET, clerk in the office of the war governor of the city of Warsaw and Mrs. Jozefa Marcelina MNIEWSKA, who was replaced by Lucia RUBICKA, as well as August DAUBAN, a ship's captain with Mrs. Henrieta (Henryka) LOMBARD nee PEJROT, and Henryk Martin (Marcin) and Mrs. Ludwika Stefania LOMBARD.
This act was delayed due to the weakness of the child's mother was read to the father and the witnesses, and signed by them.
X. Józef Spleczyński, pastor
Witness signatures

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Sat Nov 02, 2024 10:29 am

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 10:29 am

Hello,
I'm stopping research on this branch for now.

I have a birth record of a brother of Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI (son) 's wife which i would like to be translated.
act n°33 : https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=998&se=&sy=1852&kt=1&plik=031-034.jpg&x=1679&y=186&zoom=1

Here is a first draft, to be corrected and completed ...
" This took place in Warsaw on June 25 / July 7, 1852, at 5 p.m. Wilhelm LOMBARD, a private tutor aged 57, residing in Warsaw at No. 1359, appeared in the presence of Jan Jakub DE CASTRES de TERSAC, a private tutor in Warsaw aged 38, and Jakub Karol GRESSER, profession ??? aged 73. They presented to us a male child, born in Warsaw at No. 1359 on April 16 / 28 of this year at 3 p.m., the son of his wife Wirginia née PERRIN, aged 39. At Holy Baptism, the child was given the names Emil Henryk. His godparents were Emil HIGNET, clerk ???, and Jozefa Marcelina MNIEWSKA, who was replaced by Lucia RUBICKA, as well as August DAUBAN, captain ???"

Thank you for your help

Yvan

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:26 pm

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:26 pm

Sophia wrote:

Myriasth wrote:

I found a birth record of Wincenty OKULSKI, parents Ksawery OKULSKI and Karolina SWIEDINOWICZ, in 1825, place Grodno
n°228 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-LSZZ-G?cat=2325238

And maybe his death record but this time it is spelled Wincenty WOKULSKI, in 1831, place Grodno, at 6 years old (the age matches his birth record in 1825) but i don't see his parents ...
n°252 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-39SM-L?cat=2325238

It looks like the same couple but OKULSKI name seems to be way more common in Polonia than WAKULSKI, bot not in Belarus. I don't know if this is a mistake ...

SWIEDINOWICZ / SWIDYNOWICZ name seems to be rare and mostly found in Grodno according to Geneteka.

Also, it looks like twins in 1823. Record 290 is for Anna Okulska and Ksawery Okulski, children of Ksawery Okulski and Agnieszka Kuleszo:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-LSSS-4?cat=2325238

The mother is not the same, maybe it is another couple

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Sophia — Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:44 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:44 pm

Myriasth wrote:

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:11 pm

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:11 pm

I found a birth record of Wincenty OKULSKI, parents Ksawery OKULSKI and Karolina SWIEDINOWICZ, in 1825, place Grodno
n°228 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-LSZZ-G?cat=2325238

And maybe his death record but this time it is spelled Wincenty WOKULSKI, in 1831, place Grodno, at 6 years old (the age matches his birth record in 1825) but i don't see his parents ...
n°252 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-39SM-L?cat=2325238

It looks like the same couple but OKULSKI name seems to be way more common in Polonia than WAKULSKI, bot not in Belarus. I don't know if this is a mistake ...

SWIEDINOWICZ / SWIDYNOWICZ name seems to be rare and mostly found in Grodno according to Geneteka.

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:36 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:36 am

It would be interesting to see if there were any children from the Wakulski-Swidinowicz marriage in the period 1825-1832. And check whether the surname Wakulski exists in the Ejsmonty area.
I do not believe that Ksawery i Katarzyna was married before 1833. This information in Roman's birth record suggests that the priest was interested to hear where they married, since they came from another place. This family moved a lot.

-Barb

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 am

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 am

Hey, thank you very much for these translations

So if we sum up what we have regarding Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI marriages :

- 1825 : Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI (though we don't know for sure it's him) married Karolina SWIDINOWICZ in Belarus
- Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI left his home at some point and went to Polonia
- before 1833 : Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI started a relationship with Katarzyna PARAZINSKA
- 1833 : first born child, Natalia Jozefa WAKULSKA, they are considered maried
- 1840 : fifth born child, Roman WAKULSKI, they are considered NOT maried (why ?) and according to Barb it's the only birth record where this is the case
- 1843 : his former wife Karolina WAKULSKA (born SWIDINOWICZ, considered widow, her age doesn't correspond though) could remarry Maciej OLENSKI
- 1879 : Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI married Katarzyna PARAZINSKA at an old age, they were around 79 and 66 years old

Putting the pieces together, it makes sense. Do you think Franciszek Ksawery WAKULSKI and Katarzyna PARAZINSKA married normally before 1833 ?

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Sophia — Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:05 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:05 am

BarbOslo wrote:

Hi,
I've looked at both.
The first entry is very sparse with information. Date: 14.2.1825. The names of both, priest's name, and the names of witness. They were both single. The witness's surname appears to be unrelated to the family (not in the same name). Most of all, I miss the parent's surname and age.

Wedding from 15.11.1843 contain more information:
Groom: Maciej Oleński, a bachelor, 48 years old, a son of Jerzy Oleński and Maryanna nee Sieńkiewicz
Bride: Karolina Wakulska, a widow, 28 years old (born abt. 1815), from the area near Ejsmonty, Grodno region, a daughter of Józef Swidinowicz and Zofia nee Ziezunińska
Karolina in 1825 in 1843 was the same person (has the same maiden name). Looks like she was younger than your Ksawery Wakulski. .... but her age must have been wrongly written in marriage no.2. If she was 28 years old in 1843, then she was only 10 years old when she married for the first time! Then I became even more confused.

-Barb

Hi Barb,
Thank you very much for looking at these. I am just as confused as you are by Karolina's age. It is what it is, though. An error by the scribe, perhaps. Or a woman who refused to age! Who knows.
I think it all gets put into a file folder of "interesting records that may be part of the Wakulski family tree."
Enjoy the upcoming weekend,
Sophia

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:04 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:04 am

Hi Barb,
Thanks!
Geneteka provides links to both marriages: https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=22br&rid=6659&search_lastname=Wakulski&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Sophia[/quote]

Hi,
I've looked at both.
The first entry is very sparse with information. Date: 14.2.1825. The names of both, priest's name, and the names of witness. They were both single. The witness's surname appears to be unrelated to the family (not in the same name). Most of all, I miss the parent's surname and age.

Wedding from 15.11.1843 contain more information:
Groom: Maciej Oleński, a bachelor, 48 years old, a son of Jerzy Oleński and Maryanna nee Sieńkiewicz
Bride: Karolina Wakulska, a widow, 28 years old (born abt. 1815), from the area near Ejsmonty, Grodno region, a daughter of Józef Swidinowicz and Zofia nee Ziezunińska
Karolina in 1825 in 1843 was the same person (has the same maiden name). Looks like she was younger than your Ksawery Wakulski. .... but her age must have been wrongly written in marriage no.2. If she was 28 years old in 1843, then she was only 10 years old when she married for the first time! Then I became even more confused.

-Barb

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Sophia — Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:22 pm

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:22 pm

BarbOslo wrote:

Sophia, can you link again the records from Grodno? I'll look into these. For your info. In the birth record of Roman (born in 1840) I could read that "newborn child is his (Franciszek Ksawery) and unmarried Katarzyna Parazinska" In all other children's birth records she is mentioned as his wife.

-Barb

Hi Barb,
Thanks!
Geneteka provides links to both marriages: https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=22br&rid=6659&search_lastname=Wakulski&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Sophia

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:36 pm

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:36 pm

Sophia, can you link again the records from Grodno? I'll look into these. For your info. In the birth record of Roman (born in 1840) I could read that "newborn child is his (Franciszek Ksawery) and unmarried Katarzyna Parazinska" In all other children's birth records she is mentioned as his wife.

-Barb

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Sophia — Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:35 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:35 am

Myriasth wrote:

Sophia wrote:

Hi,
It looks like the translations you asked for on the Polish translations thread on 20 September have still not been done for you. I look every day but I do not see them. I know you were hoping to post all of Franciszek Ksawery's childrens' birth records and then the two marriages from Grodno.
I am happy to see that you are Barb are making so much progress on other parts of the Wakulski family.
Best regards,
Sophia

Hello Sophia, thank you for your message.
It's not a problem if the translation takes a bit longer, especially since there doesn't seem to be any important information according to Barb.
In the meantime, we're discovering other things related to the children.

Best regards.

Yvan

Hi Yvan and Barb,
Yes, I understand, it may not seem to be the most important information. The idea, however, was to try to understand why your Wakulski ancestors married so late in life. The logic was first to examine every birth record of their children to see if they were listed as truly married. Then, to look at the two marriages from Grodno to see if it is the same woman who is getting married in both of these records. In the second marriage, I think it says she is a widow but does it specify the name of her deceased husband? Or are there other clues that show she is the same woman? Because he does not show up in the death records for that parish. So the hypothesis is that he left, and after enough time passed she was allowed to declare him dead so she could remarry.
It would just be interesting to know.
Best of luck as you continue your research!
Sophia

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:15 pm

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:15 pm

BarbOslo wrote:

Myriasth wrote:

I don't know if you read the mariage and death records of Aleksander WAKULSKI (son of Mateusz WAKULSKI and husband of Anna DOWGIEL) but maybe it could provide some clues on the parents ?

mariage act n°2 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T3-L96Y-X?cat=2356543
death act n°8 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM1-J31W-2?cat=2323279

Hi,
I am referring to the post from 6 days ago, which contains the information from these links.

mariage act n°2 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T3-L96Y-X?cat=2356543
Anna Dowgiel married Aleksander Wakulski on January 21st,1838 in parish Łukonica (Belarus).
Aleksander Wakulski, a bachelor, 30 years old, a son of Mateusz and Marianna nee Skrzydłowska.
Anna Dowgiel, a miss, 21 years old , a daughter of Bartlomiej and Anna nee Siewruk
Both from folwark Dobrze.

death act n°8 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM1-J31W-2?cat=2323279
Aleksander Wakulski died on April 14th, 1844, in Chołstowo parish Zelwa, 40 years old.
Cause of death: brain inflammation (encephalitis).
He is survived by his wife Anna nee Siewiera, son Wladyslaw and daughters Waleria and Zofia.

Regards,
-Barb

Thank you !

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:42 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:42 am

Myriasth wrote:

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:27 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:27 am

Myriasth wrote:

Hallo,
Aleksander, a son of Mateusz and Marianna nee Skrzedlewska, 30 years old. Can look into this tonight.

-Barb

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:20 am

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:20 am

I don't know if you read the mariage and death records of Aleksander WAKULSKI (son of Mateusz WAKULSKI and husband of Anna DOWGIEL) but maybe it could provide some clues on the parents ?

mariage act n°2 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T3-L96Y-X?cat=2356543
death act n°8 : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM1-J31W-2?cat=2323279

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

Myriasth — Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:07 pm

Author: Myriasth

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:07 pm

Sophia wrote:

Re: Investigations on Franciszek Ksawery Wakulski

BarbOslo — Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:49 am

Author: BarbOslo

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:49 am

Sophia wrote:

Hi Sophia,
I have looked at the two birth records that were added for translation on September 20th. It is nothing new for Yvan. Both dates are known. No other information is so important. Hope Marcel does it soon.

-Barb