PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:48 am

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:48 am

ossnhughie wrote:

Thank you Elzbieta for confirming Sirdan and his opinion. So you find it likely or almost certain Julia from 1859 marriage is Julianna from 1840 parish census?

Hugh

Hugh,

Put it other way around: there is no valid reasons to exclude that “Julia from 1859 marriage is Julianna from 1840 parish census”.

Usually the marriage record is based on the birth record, and the age of bride or groom are correct. Very often the death record has approximate age and information, as it is based on witnesses’ declaration and memory. The biggest discrepancy I saw here on PO was 14 years of difference between the age of groom on his marriage record, and the age of the same person (groom) noted on the death record of his father, next month.

The census is interesting, but subject to human errors in compiling and cross-correlating one year of records, then handwriting it.
See simple trivial typo on page2, column 1 (chronological order, no brainer), after 19 you have 10, 1 written in place of 2 - that error in numbering did happen at the very beginning, was not corrected, and later on it was too much work to correct it.

I wish you find more records to confirm.

Elzbieta

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Thank you Elzbieta for confirming Sirdan and his opinion. So you find it likely or almost certain Julia from 1859 marriage is Julianna from 1840 parish census?

Hugh

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:24 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:24 pm

ossnhughie wrote:

Elzbieta,

What is your opinion? Are they my Dowiats based on the facts at hand??

I think yes, page 25 and 26 are yours.

Mistakes in age happen in records quite often, Majszogoly's list is a compilation, derived product from records.

Sirdan wrote:

Quote:

p25:
Nikodem, son of Bartłomiej Dowiatt; 10 yrs old; dworzanin, living in Zaścianek Pojodzie

p26
Mother of Nikodem, Aniela Dowiatt, daughter of Michał; 38 yrs old; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
Sisters of Nikodem Dowiatt, 1. Marianna; 17 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
2. Julianna; 7 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
3. Aleksandra; 2 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie

Quote:

I looked through the 60+ pages a few times and saw no Bartlomiej Dowiatt. I am guessing he must be deceased??

That fits the men-based method from Majszagoly.

I think that if Bartlomiej were alive, his wife (social status) would be noted:
zona Bartlomieja Dowitt, corka Michala, Aniela // wife of Bartlomiej Dowitt, daughter of Michal, Aniela
- similar to other entries.
He is no more, so Bartlomiej's wife gets attached to the closest man, and became "mother of" insted of "wife of".

Best,
Elzbieta

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Elzbieta,

What is your opinion? Are they my Dowiats based on the facts at hand??

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

Elzbieta Porteneuve — Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:47 pm

Author: Elzbieta Porteneuve

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:47 pm

sirdan wrote:

What hit me was that three girls were not listed as daughters of their mother but as sisters of 10 yrs old boy. I also think that Bartłomiej was deceased at that time, and Nikodem, the only boy in family became already an important person. Listed separately.

Hard to say if this family match a marriage act, but it is definitely possibile. The mistake was more probably on the list than on the marriage record. What parish that marriage act come from? To be certain in family connections, let see here https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/1552054?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Sirdan,

Very valid observation about asymmetry between men and women.

It is by gender: men and women, from a fast browsing it is more or less one page men, followed by one page women.

Each man is identified with regard to men only, ascending and collateral relatives.
Each woman, babies included, is identified with regard to men, ascending or descending.
Did they record any child of an unmarried woman?
A kind of who's who within the parish?
Best,
Elzbieta

==
cf.
http://genealogia.lt/pdfs/Spis%20parafian%20Majszagoly%20z%201840%20r.pdf

Title for MEN:
Płeć męska // Males
M1: Numer sekwensovy // Chronological number
M2: Imię parafianina i nazwisko, tudziez imię ojca jego // Name of male parishioner and last name, as well as his father's name
M3: Wiek // Age
M4: Jakiego stanu // Social category
M5: Miejsce zamieszkania // Place of residence

1 Michal syn Stanislawa, Drozdowski
2 syn Michal
...
8 Franciszek syn Antoniego, Rutkowski
9 jego syn Justyn [-> Justyn, syn Franciszka]
10 brat Stanislaw [-> Stanislaw, brat Franciszka], syn Antoniego Rutkowski
11 brat Karol [-> Karol, brat Franciszka], syn Antoniego Rutkowski

Title for WOMEN:
Płeć żeńska // Females
F1: Numer sekwensovy // Chronological number
F2: Imię i nazwisko parafianki, tudziez imię ojca jej // Name and last name of female parishioner, as well as her father's name
F3: Wiek // Age
F4: Jakiego stanu // Social category
F5: Miejsce zamieszkania // Place of residence

1 zona Michala Drozdowskiego, corka Dominika
2 zona Michala Drozdowskiego, corka Wincentego, Maryanna
3 jego corka Krystyna [-> Krystyna, corka Michala Drozdowskiego]
==

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:31 am

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:31 am

Thanks Sidan. The 1859 marriage was from the same parish Mejszagola.

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

sirdan — Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:46 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:46 am

What hit me was that three girls were not listed as daughters of their mother but as sisters of 10 yrs old boy. I also think that Bartłomiej was deceased at that time, and Nikodem, the only boy in family became already an important person. Listed separately.

Hard to say if this family match a marriage act, but it is definitely possibile. The mistake was more probably on the list than on the marriage record. What parish that marriage act come from? To be certain in family connections, let see here https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/1552054?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:51 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:51 pm

I just realized the list is from 1840 not 1844. That means Julianna was born in 1833 or so. not 1837. That means it probably is not her. In her wedding record from 1859 she is listed as 23 years old, but according to the list she would have been 26 or 27. The other information seems right though. Is it likely or possible that one of the ages is a mistake?? I sure hope so.

Hugh

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:44 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:44 pm

Thank You Sirdan,

So in your estimation this must be the same family? I looked through the 60+ pages a few times and saw no Bartlomiej Dowiatt. I am guessing he must be deceased??

So just to be clear (before I add it to my tree)

Aniela Dowiatt nee Romanowicz was 38 years old as of this 1844 parish census And her father was/is Michal Romanowicz.
Her children are Nikodem, Marianna, Julianna and Aleksandra

Re: I think I found ancestors on parish list

sirdan — Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:51 am

Author: sirdan

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:51 am

Hello, this is great resource for your genealogy, not always is possible to find such document. Here is some translation:

p25:
Nikodem, son of Bartłomiej Dowiatt; 10 yrs old; dworzanin, living in Zaścianek Pojodzie

p26
Mother of Nikodem, Aniela Dowiatt, daughter of Michał; 38 yrs old; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
Sisters of Nikodem Dowiatt, 1. Marianna; 17 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
2. Julianna; 7 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie
3. Aleksandra; 2 yrs old; dworzanka; living in Zaścianek Pojodzie

p27
Wincenty, son of Józef Dowiatt; 27 yrs old; dworzanin; living in Zaścianek Wierszobol

Social statuses:
Włościanin/Włościanka: a man/woman that works every day on field (chłop/chłopka), kind of farmer,
Dworzanin/Dworzanka: a man/woman in service for the owner - J.W.P. This is description of the status not a job, so actually dont know what would be their every day work, but some of them would do personal service for the J.W.P.
Jednodworzanin/Jednodworzanka: not sure, some kind of dworzanin,
Odstawny Żołnierz: a soldier on vacation, temporal out of military service, most probably,
Zapaszportem: ???
J.W.P.: Jaśnie Wielmożny Pan - in this case an owner of the town/village. JWP is not a status actually, it is how people were calling him. Dont know english equivalent - i think Your Majesty is too strong to compare.
W.P.: Wielmożny Pan - less important than J.W.P. In this case its a son of the owner. The young daughter i Wielmożna Panienka.

Zaścianek - an place of living of poor szlachta. Under some circumstances they lost their properties and they work on field on their own.

Since 1802, the Mejszagoła was owned by Houwalt/Hołwalt family. The owner Jerzy Houwalt is listed as JWP, living in Dwór in Mejszagoła with his daughter Matylda.

A family of Dowiatt http://genealogia.grocholski.pl/gd/rodzina.php?id=23749

I think I found ancestors on parish list

ossnhughie — Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:47 pm

Author: ossnhughie

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:47 pm

My friends,

I will link to a parish list from 1844 in Mejszagola which seems to have ancestors of mine through the Dowiat Romanowicz side. My problem is I have a limited (make that almost nonexistant) understanding of Polish especially gender/suffixes etc. The Document can be foundhere:

http://genealogia.lt/pdfs/Spis%20parafian%20Majszagoly%20z%201840%20r.pdf

I was looking through this extensive list and found Dowiat (in this case Dowiatt's) on at least three pages: 25,26 and 27.

on pg 25: number 549
pg 26: numbers 514-517- seems to be mother and daughters? Aniela Romanowicz perhaps and could one daughter be Julia from 1859 marriage?

pg 27: number 590 Wincenty Dowiatt??

The reason I think these are realtives are as follows a marriage record of Konstanty Szymkiewicz and Julia Dowiat from May of 1859 lists Julia's age as 23 and from the parish of Mejszagola. Her parents are listed as Bartlomiej and Aniela (Romanowicz) Dowiat. One of the witnesses of this wedding is listed as nobleman Nikodem Dowiat.

I know this list is from 15 years before the wedding but I am hopping my hunch is right.

Hopefully one of you can confirm this or make sense of it.

Sincerely,

Hugh

ps the social standing seems to say Dworzanin and Dworzanka?? Is this some petty noble title? (all documents so far call Dowiatts Noble)