PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

Zenon — Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:28 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:28 am

PolishLibrarin wrote:

I would like to point out that on his Declaration of Intention Jan says his last foreign residence was Dębica

This is correct.

PolishLibrarin wrote:

(...)if Wladyslaw was 10 months old on arrival in the U.S. in April 1891 then he must have been born in June 1890 (not 1899 as listed on Jan's petition for naturalization)

This is also what I noticed first when I looked at the document. The year of birth of Władysław look like 1899. But we discussed it with Aleksandra and not only she is sure that Wladyslaw was born either in 1889 or 1890 but also look at the next children birth dates and places. The dates are recorded in chronological order and all the remaining children were born in the US, in Philadelphia.

PolishLibrarin wrote:

Then again if you found Jan's birth record in 1865 and his wife's in 1863, then the information provided on these naturalization records are 10 years off for the ages Jan reported for he and his wife.

Good point. The Declaration of Intention is dated October 9th, 1906 and Jan claims that he is 35 years of age, while we have his birth record from 1865 - 6 year's difference.

As I often repeat, the information provided in this kind of documents are not necessary undeniable facts. This is what was told to the state clerk during filling out the document, and most probably couldn't be verified. There was a discussion about this issue of "inaccurate" data (to put it mildly), which makes the genealogy research even more challenging, here in the Forum thread: Article: How Surnames Came Into Being in Poland .

PolishLibrarin wrote:

Is it definite that this authorization was made in the area that is now the Ukraine? There is a Kamieniec outside of Tarnobrzeg north of Jan's birth town.

But in the passport there is listed Kamieniec, Podolia province, which is now Ukraine.

The best for Aleksandra's research would be to find the marriage place, and then marriage record of parents of Władysław, and consequently, birth record of him. This is the big "brick wall" now.

Recently Aleksandre wrote me that she also had posted this question to one of discussion lists specializing in Ukraininan part of Galicia. One of suggestions she got was the town named Czeczelnik in Polish, or Чечельник in Ukrainian, and located in Podolia, click here for map: http://bit.ly/h3zPr4 . Well, I think it sounds reasonable and this direction is worth trying...

Re: Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

PolishLibrarian — Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:27 pm

Author: PolishLibrarian

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:27 pm

Hi~ I've read Alexandra's blog post and looked at the naturalization record. Although I don't have any answers I would like to point out that on his Declaration of Intention Jan says his last foreign residence was Dębica which is just south of his birth town Nagoszyn. In addition, if Wladyslaw was 10 months old on arrival in the U.S. in April 1891 then he must have been born in June 1890 (not 1899 as listed on Jan's petition for naturalization). Then again if you found Jan's birth record in 1865 and his wife's in 1863, then the information provided on these naturalization records are 10 years off for the ages Jan reported for he and his wife.

I see the passport was issued in Ropczyce which is just east of Dębica. Not knowing how travel on this passport worked in these times, I would guess in 1891 that they had made the decision to emigrate and possibly made a last visit to his mother with the baby before leaving. It appears the annotation was made when the 3 week unhindered travel was authorized. Is it definite that this authorization was made in the area that is now the Ukraine? There is a Kamieniec outside of Tarnobrzeg north of Jan's birth town. Could they have been back in the Dębica area and then went to see his mother? Surely if they were living in the Ukraine area he wouldn't have said his last foreign residence was Dębica. Then again maybe he considered himself from Dębica because he lived in that area the longest portion of his life. It is hard to know.

I don't need to see a response. I'm just posing questions to be considered by you and Alexandra.

Re: Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

Zenon — Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:49 am

Author: Zenon

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:49 am

I think James, there is some probability that you are right with your "shot". Alexandra's grandparents left Poland for Prussia in Aleksandrowo, which is now Aleksandrow Kujawski. The two towns, Ciechocinek and Aleksandrow are only a few kilometers one from one other, see map: http://bit.ly/hKAU34 .

For all, you can read Aleksandra's research tour story and maybe help her in solving the mystery of her grandparents' marriage place and father's birth place in our Blog: http://blog.polishorigins.com/ . Part 1: Arrival in the old Galicia, my grandparents homeland. , part 2: The long journey and unsolved mystery. .

Re: Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

James — Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:58 pm

Author: James

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:58 pm

I think that it is a very good possibility that is what happened. There is a similarity in the arraignment of the letters that corresponds to the spelling and pronunciation of the town of Ciechocinek.
Of course I am no expert at this, but that would be my guess.

Is there a town in Poland that is similar in spelling as " Chiczeonik " ?

Re: Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

Zenon — Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:24 pm

Author: Zenon

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:24 pm

James,

Do you think that the clerk, most probably English speaking (Irish..?), registering the document could hear the town name Ciechocinek and write it down this way... It sounds in Polish like this: http://say.expressivo.com/jacek/ciechocinek ...

Naturalization Record

James — Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:27 am

Author: James

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:27 am

Zenon,

It looks like " C h i c z e o n i k " to me.

Wasn't this the name of the town we visited, between Wloclawek and Torun ? The one near Sylwia's home, that you said was a popular resort.

James

Town in Russia (or Ukraine, or Poland...) - Chiczeonik ?

Zenon — Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Author: Zenon

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Dear All,

This time this is me and Sandy, with who we are now on her Forefathers Traces Tour in Tarnow area, who are asking your for help in deciphering a name of town in a hand-written document.

This is well-known to many of you Declaration of Intention of Naturalization. In this document, on the second page, Sandy's grandfather lists his and his wife, children. The first child Wladyslaw was born in Europe before their emigration. We weren't able to find marriage record of them in Tarnow area and we believe that they could get marry in the same town (or at least area) where the first child was born.

Thanks to invaluable help of Ryszard, who already has helped many of you in your Russian documents translations (click here for Russian translations thread in our Forum: http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=335 ) we know from Jan's passport that he left for Russia from Galicia and he crossed the border in Wołoczysk, or now in Ukraine Volochys'k, click here for map: http://bit.ly/bIsKF5 . We assume that the town listed as a birth place of the first child Władysław (framed in the Declaration) was located east of Wołoczysk in Russia.

Now request to you, do you have any ideas, or at least guesses, what is the name of this town.......

(Click on the scan to enlarge it).