PolishOrigins(TM) Forum

Re: Pelagia Winkel

Trish — Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:47 pm

Author: Trish

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:47 pm

Winkle/Harvinski wrote:

A Pelagia Winkel was born in Wikowa, Poland (Old German Section) in 1874. She was my grandfather Leo's sister. They, and several other siblings, immigrated to Pennsylvania around 1890. Parents were Johann (several spellings) and Anna. I'm still researching, but we might be related.

Bill (Winkle) Jones
Canfield, OH (Youngstown)
I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.

Hi,
I found Pelagia Winkel's birth record on Family Search. I also found Leo Winkel's birth record. I'm not sure if you already had these records.

Plus here is the marriage record for Leo Winkel.
Have a great day!
Trish

Pelagia Winkel

Winkle/Harvinski — Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:49 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:49 am

A Pelagia Winkel was born in Wikowa, Poland (Old German Section) in 1874. She was my grandfather Leo's sister. They, and several other siblings, immigrated to Pennsylvania around 1890. Parents were Johann (several spellings) and Anna. I'm still researching, but we might be related.

Bill (Winkle) Jones
Canfield, OH (Youngstown)

27 Wielko on a Polish national map

Winkle/Harvinski — Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:45 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:45 am

Thanks again, Dave. You're grasp of Polish history is amazing. I'm beginning to think Michener didn't do as much research as he claimed. But to be fair, he did have pick an chose to keep the book under 1000 pages. I will certainly pursue the naturalization issue even though I have his naturalization docs from Cleveland as an adult because I just picked up another hint about a Louis Winkel being naturalized as a teenager shortly after his arrival.

Thanks again,
Bill

Re: Thank you

dnowicki — Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:31 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:31 pm

Winkle/Harvinski wrote:

Thank you very much,Dave. It's very kind of you to trouble with a grammar lesson. I'm familiar with Latin and Spanish declensions, but I had no idea that Polish grammar was so similar. It clears up a lot of things. I don't understand, however, how Wielkopolski is an adjective. Does it mean "town" or "village?" or indicate a direction such as N S E W, for example or can it be translated into English? Wielk, by the way, seems very similar to Wienkel.

Louis Wienkel, Winkle, after years of research, remains a ghost behind the proverbial brick wall.

Bill
Bill

Hi Bill,

Wielkopolska acts as a noun when it is used to refer to the area which was the so called cradle of the Polish state. It was the region ruled by Mieszko when he converted to Christianity in the year 966 and was the seat of power of the Piast rulers of Poland until the capital of Poland was moved to Kraków in 1038. Kraków remained the capital until 1596 when Warsaw became the capital of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which was commonly known as Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów (Polish), The Republic of the Two Nations (English), Res Publica Utriusque Nationis (Latin). The formal name of the state was The Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania or Królestwo Polskie i Wielkie Księstwo Litewskie (Polish) or Regnum Poloniae Magnusque Ducatus Lithuaniae (Latin). Warsaw was chosen because of its central location between the capital of the Crown Lands, Kraków, and the capital of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Wilno/Vilnius. The name Wiielkopolska means “Great Poland” and was used to translate the Latin name of the region, Polonia Maior (literally: Greater Poland). The area where Kraków is located was known as Małopolska, which means “Little Poland” or “Lesser Poland” and was use to translate the Latin name of that region, Polonia Minor (literally: Lesser Poland). Here is a link to Wikipedia (Polish Site) which has a good map of Wielkopolska during the era of the Piast dynasty: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielkopolska
The reason that Latin titles were used to describe the state is that for centuries Latin was the common language of western and central Europe and was the language employed in diplomacy and in international relations.

In the examples of place names from yesterday wielkopolski, wielkopolska, wielkopolskie functions as an adjective since in its various forms it is modifying either a masculine or a feminine or a neuter noun. In all those forms the best English translation would be “Great Poland” or “Greater Poland”. In my opinion, trying to determine the location where your grandfather lived in Poland using the name of the region in any of its incarnations without the name of a village, town or city would be like banging your head against the proverbial brick wall without any realistic hope of freeing the ghost there. If your grandfather became a naturalized citizen and if you can locate his citizenship papers (wherever they may be housed), you may find yourself in possession of a sledgehammer which is heavy enough to make a large hole in the wall.

Wishing you success in finding the sledgehammer and freeing the ghost,

Dave

PS Wielki, wielka, wielkie is a adjective which means great, large. Probably no connection to the surname beyond sound.

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Tina Ellis — Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:24 pm

Author: Tina Ellis

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:24 pm

Tip: Go to this site: mapa.szukacz.pl

In the white box under the work Miejscowosc, type in wielko*
Click on your Enter key

It will give every place with wielko as part of a name.

Happy Hunting !!

Tina Elllis

Thank you

Winkle/Harvinski — Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:00 pm

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:00 pm

Thank you very much,Dave. It's very kind of you to trouble with a grammar lesson. I'm familiar with Latin and Spanish declensions, but I had no idea that Polish grammar was so similar. It clears up a lot of things. I don't understand, however, how Wielkopolski is an adjective. Does it mean "town" or "village?" or indicate a direction such as N S E W, for example or can it be translated into English? Wielk, by the way, seems very similar to Wienkel.

Louis Wienkel, Winkle, after years of research, remains a ghost behind the proverbial brick wall.

Bill
Bill

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

dnowicki — Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:11 pm

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:11 pm

Winkle/Harvinski wrote:

Hi, While trying to find Wielkopolski, I found the province and two towns both near Gniezno. My grandfather was a Winkel, Winkle, Winkiel and someone said many Winkels lived in this area. Can you tell me which town?
Bill Jones

PS Does an "a" instead of an "i" or "ie" on the end of a name indicate the feminine form?
PPS Has anyone read Michener's "Poland?" It's fascinating.
PPS Anyone have connection with Harvinski (Charvinska)?

Hi Bill,

As far as I know there are no villages/towns in Poland with only the name Wielkopolski. Wielkopolski (Masculine), Wielkopolska (Feminine), Wielkopolskie (Neuter) is an adjective. Examples of towns which are modified by the adjective in the three genders are: Borek Wielkopolski (Masc.). Środa Wielkopolska (Fem.), and Kosowo Wielkopolskie (Neuter). The Province (województwo) is modified by the Neuter Wielkopolskie because the noun województwo is Neuter in gender.

Polish is a highly inflected language which means that its grammatical structure has more in common with other inflected languages like Latin, Classical Greek, Russian, German, etc. than it does with a language like English. In Polish nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and participles (which are verbal adjectives) are declined, which means that the endings change depending on how the word is being used in a sentence. These changes are called declensions and the usage is called a Case. Polish has seven cases, which means that there are seven sets of endings in the singular and seven in the plural. The inflection in verbs is called a Conjugation. Polish verbs are conjugated but the conjugation of verbs is rather simple when compared to Conjugations in Latin or in Classical Greek.

So what does all this mean in the real world of dealing with Poland and its records? It means that one can see a given word in various forms with various endings. Unless one is attempting to speak, read or write Polish it just means that it usually suffices to recognize the basic meaning of a word without necessarily trying to understand why the form is what it is in a sentence.

Cases in grammars in English speaking countries are called Nominative, Genitive, Dative, etc. In Poland a grammar would list the cases with their Polish names: Mianownik, Dopełniacz, Celownik, etc. The attachments contain an explanation of the Cases and their usage and the case endings of nouns and of adjectives (in PDF format).

I did read Michner back when the book was published in the 80s. If you would like to read other historical novels about Poland two authors come to mind—Henryk Sienkiewicz (late 19th Century) and James Conroyd Martin. Sienkiewicz’s trilogy was written in Polish but has been translated into English. The first book of the trilogy is With Fire & Sword (Polish: Ogniem i Mieczem). The first book of Martin’s trilogy is Push Not the River. If you are interested in a readable and accurate history of Poland I would recommend the two volume history by Norman Davies: God’s Playground: A History of Poland.

A good place to start to look for your grandparents’ places of birth would be post 1906 passenger manifests. If they arrived prior to 1906, the manifests will probably only list generic places of origin like “Germany” and will not provide the info you need. Another good source would be your grandfather’s naturalization papers—especially the declaration of intention form.

Although I found individuals with your grandfather’s surname indexed in what is currently Województwo Wielkopolskie (the Province of Posen in the 19th Century) your grandfather did not appear on any index. That doesn’t necessarily mean he was not born there, but just that his name does not appear on the index.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Winkle/Harvinski — Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:29 am

Author: Winkle/Harvinski

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:29 am

Hi, While trying to find Wielkopolski, I found the province and two towns both near Gniezno. My grandfather was a Winkel, Winkle, Winkiel and someone said many Winkels lived in this area. Can you tell me which town?
Bill Jones

PS Does an "a" instead of an "i" or "ie" on the end of a name indicate the feminine form?
PPS Has anyone read Michener's "Poland?" It's fascinating.
PPS Anyone have connection with Harvinski (Charvinska)?

Re: trying to find my grandmother

Anonymous — Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:03 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:03 pm

melaniemiguel wrote:

mous1123 wrote:

My grandmother was supposed to be born in Poland..Although her last name is German..I cannot find any records for her other than census in the US. Her
full name as far as I know is
Pauline Winkel
Born 1885?
Never learned English spoke only polish
Married Roman Prrzewdziekowski aka prezenkowski..aka preziinkowski..aka przynowski
in ohio those are the spellings on the census and his naturalization papers
she never became a
US citizen
Have searched as many websites as I can except for polish which I do not speak or read.
Any help to find a site I could use that may be helpful
Thanks
Mickey

Mickey or Melanie
the index was found in Poznan Project:http://poznan-project.psnc.pl/

Mogilno records are available in www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl

Gilberto

Re: trying to find my grandmother

melaniemiguel — Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:20 pm

Author: melaniemiguel

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:20 pm

mous1123 wrote:

Re: trying to find my grandmother

dnowicki — Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:57 am

Author: dnowicki

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:57 am

mous1123 wrote:

We found Pauline Winkel maiden name...Now trying to find her parents I have tried to no avail to find info on her parents On a marriage certificate her parents names are
Anna Jakubowski
Lawrence Winkler
I was a little confused with winkler instead of winkel
Please send me in the right direction maybe I can find Pauline exact birth date

Mickey,

Evidently the spelling was incorrect as was the spelling on the Poznan Project Index. A descendant of Wawrzyniec (Lawrence) Winkel and Anna Jakubowska who resides in Poland corrected the spelling on the site. Her name is Krystyna Greń and she lists two daughters of Wawrzyniec and Anna as Jozefa (born 1889) and Walentyna Joanna (born 1894). The parish where Wawrzyniec and Anna were married was Mogilno in Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Poland. Records from the parish are not available online but can be found on LDS microfilms. My recommendation would be to rent the appropriate marriage and birth films. Your grandmother's given name will appear in the birth records as Pelagia. The records should be in the columnar format and the language should be Latin. Wawrzyniec's name will appear as Laurentius and Anna's and Pelagia's names will be the same in Latin as in Polish, i.e. Anna and Pelagia. In the LDS catalog births are akta urodzeń and marriages are akta małżeństw.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Re: trying to find my grandmother

Anonymous — Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:54 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:54 am

mous1123 wrote:

I have found this. Going to check the spelling on the original record.
Parafia katolicka Mogilno, wpis 41 / 1871
Laurentius Wintrol (21 lat) 68%
Anna Jakubowska (17 lat) 100%
Krystyna Greń (e-mail: krystyna.gren [at] wp.pl):
-- Wawrzyniec WINKEL;
córki Wawrzyńca i Anny: Józefa *1887, Walentyna Joanna *1894
(21-09-2015)

Gilberto

trying to find my grandmother

mous1123 — Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:38 am

Author: mous1123

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:38 am

We found Pauline Winkel maiden name...Now trying to find her parents I have tried to no avail to find info on her parents On a marriage certificate her parents names are
Anna Jakubowski
Lawrence Winkler
I was a little confused with winkler instead of winkel
Please send me in the right direction maybe I can find Pauline exact birth date

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Anonymous — Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:51 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:51 pm

Sophia, Cheri and Mickey

If it is B for Baltimore, then it is Bielice. Parish for Bielice either is Kwieciszewo or Gebice or Mogilno. Some findinds in Poznan Project:
Parafia katolicka Kwieciszewo, wpis 16 / 1870
Thomas Winkel (24 lat) 100%
matka: Josepha Winkel
Catharina Pilarska z domu Mylas? (22 lat, wdowa)
ojciec: Michael Mylas? , matka: Brigitta Malinowska

Urząd Stanu Cywilnego Gębice (Mogilno), wpis L-3 / 1874
Marcel Winkel alias Winkiel (23 lat) 100%
ojciec: Matthias Winkel + , matka: Marie Nowakowska
Anna Kalinowska (19 lat)
ojciec: Franz Kalinowski + , matka: Marie Wróblewska

Urząd Stanu Cywilnego Mogilno, wpis 20 / 1877
Joseph Winkel (ur. 1851) 100%
ojciec: Michael , matka: Rosalie Kabot
Feliziana Radomska (ur. 1857)
ojciec: Silvester , matka: Antonie Szrankiewicz

Urząd Stanu Cywilnego Gębice (Mogilno), wpis L-27 / 1888
Martin Winkel alias Winkiel (ur. 1867) 100%
ojciec: Adalbert Winkel + , matka: Michalina Śliwińska +
Marie Lewandowska (ur. 1865)
ojciec: Valentin Lewandowski + , matka: Rosalie Jaworska

Gilberto

Pauline

mous1123 — Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 pm

Author: mous1123

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 pm

I do not know of any siblings. She passed before I was born. And my father was not very talkative about his mother. My grandfather stayed with us for a while. But he didn't speak English
Mickey

Pauline

mous1123 — Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:27 pm

Author: mous1123

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:27 pm

Hi Cheri
That is my grandmother grave. I knew it was at St Mary's. I was told she passed in1934. Thank you so much you all seem better at this than I am.
Mickey

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Sophia — Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:52 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:52 am

Hi Cheri,
As for the first initial of the sister's name on Pelagia's manifest, at first I thought it was an "I" but now I see it possibly as an "A." Look at passengers Anna (line 15) and Anton (line 22) for a similar looking first letter.
Best,
Sophia

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Cheri Vanden Berg — Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:52 am

Author: Cheri Vanden Berg

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:52 am

Sophia and Gilberto,
I would never have guessed someone would write a B like that! Now I see that the B in Bronislawa (line2) and the B in Barbara (line 5) are also written like that.

I wish they would have written the first name of Pelagia's Szczech sister (IF this is the correct Pelagia Winkiel/Winkel). I can't make out her sister's first initial either. Mickey, do you know of any siblings of Pauline? It can help to research collateral lines for answers, though once again, Pelagia and Roman's marriage record should hopefully have answers for you if you can track it down.

Mickey, In case you don't have this, I believe this must be your grandmother's gravestone:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=prezinkowska&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=146449876&df=all&

Cheri

P.S. I'm not sure what you meant about double posting. This is your "forum" and you can comment or add questions.

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Sophia — Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:07 am

Author: Sophia

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:07 am

Hi Gilberto,
The word above Cincinnati two lines above Pelagia looks to me like "Balti" as an abbreviated form of Baltimore, Maryland.
You have a good eye!
Best,
Sophia
P.S. And now I am sure it is Balti for Baltimore, by looking all the way at the right hand side of the page where the address was rewritten in different handwriting.

Re: trying to find my grandmother - Pauline Winkel

Anonymous — Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 am

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 am

Sophia wrote:

Hi Cheri,
I agree with you that this Pelagia was going to Passaic, New Jersey. I read her sister's surname as Szczech. As for the last residence, if you look at lines 15, 16, 17 and 18 (with Pelagia being on line 17), after each town is an abbreviation for province and I interpret those as: 15 = Westpreussen, 16 = Westfalian and 18 = Posen. Line 17 is not easy to read, but of all the possible Prussian provinces, it still looks closest to Posen, to me. The town name might be Bielice, but the first letter was overwritten and I am uncertain of it.
Best,
Sophia

Sophia,
I don't think it was overwritten: it is the same capital letter two lines above (rigth above Cincinatti). Can you read it?

Gilberto