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All Polska

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Replies: 48
Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: Baptism Records

I read in the newsletter about Baptisimal records in Chicago & Poland; Author - Henryk;
written by rsowa. The link was to surnames. So I couldn't find any of the above & made this a new topic.

They said that all Polish Baptisms in Chicago were held 7-10 days after the birth. They also wondered if this was so in Poland.

Someone answered that the BAPTISMAL RECORD was recorded the day it occured or the next, which to me isn't an answer to the original question.

I can't answer the original question. However, I can add my experience for why. I am all Polish & was raised in the Polish Roman Catholic Church in my home town. I was always told that you had to have the baby baptised soon after birth because if the baby dies without being baptised, it can't go to heaven, but to Limbo, a special place behind the throne of God and the child would never see the face of God.

After I had my second child, my husband didn't want his son baptised Catholic as was our daughter, born first. He was Presbyterian, but never attended church. He didn't meet the requirements I requested of proving to me he was going to take responsibility for the religious upbringing of our son by attending his UP church for a month before the baby was born; have his membership moved from his home town to a local UP Church. Since he did neither, I was upset. When he FINALLY went to talk to the local minister, they were having baptism the next day. Then not for 4 months.

I was upset because of the above teaching. I told him I would not take a chance and take our baby son out in a car, or in a crowd until he was baptised. His grandmother was a shut-n who lived far away. Christmas was 3 1/2 months away and I would not go to any relatives house unless the baby was baptised. Needless to say, neither of us was very happy!

Our daughter was baptised in the Catholic Church we had a big celebration. She wore my family heirloom gown hand made by my mother's aunt and worn by 3 generations of babies. I didn't have a little white outfit, no special food, no family invitations for the next day, so how could we have him baptised in the UP church. So our son was baptised Catholic a few weeks later with a white suit and celebration with the family and friends invited.

Traditions may not make sense, but when you hear them over and over, you try to fulfill them.

Henryk
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008
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Location: London ON, Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Baptism Records

All Polska wrote:

Certainly the Polish birth/baptism records of the 19th century showed that the urgency and importance of baptism was recognized, with minimal delay of the baptism. Current Catholic practice in North America does not treat it so seriously.

All Polska

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Replies: 48
Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject:

Henryk,
My above experience was in the U.S. during the early 1970's. I am a perfectionist. So maybe, I was the one at blame. Since then, I began reading the bible; left the Catholic Church; got born-again; my husband got born-again, went to seminary and became a U.M. minister! What a turn around for our family!

When our 3rd child was born, I no longer believed in the superstition. I did have our second son baptised instead of dedicated because of my Polish grandma still being alive. However, it was in the U.M. Church my husband & I were attending. It was before my husband became a minister. Our minister, who we called "Uncle Jack" baptised Tim. Only my husband's family attended the service. All the rest of the family came later for the meal.

Edziu340

Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Replies: 29
Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: Baptism

The Catholic church recognizes any baptism even if you did it yourself in an emergency. My wife was Methodist, and converted to Catholic, and her baptism in the Methodist church was accepted by the Catholic church. You can only baptized once.

All Polska

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Replies: 48
Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject:

Yes, Edziu340 that is true. When my husband & I got married in my Catholic Church he only had to bring his baptismal certificate from the United Presbyterian Church. The issue isn't baptism, but being baptized before death.

rsowa
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Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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Location: Dundee, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject:

All Polska wrote:

The issue isn't baptism, but being baptized before death.

Indeed. If the infant mortality rate in Poland was anything like it was for my ancestors in Chicago, I am not surprised that they were in a hurry to get the children baptized. Nearly all my Polish immigrant ancestors lost a quarter to half of their children before they were a year old.

Richard

All Polska

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject:

Sad & I'm sure true for all ethnic backgrounds.

Booby

Joined: 01 Apr 2014
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:55 pm Post subject:

>>> They said that all Polish Baptisms in Chicago were held 7-10 days after the birth. They also wondered if this was so in Poland.

The Birth/Baptism records that I have seen in "Galacia" (east Poland & western Ukraine) done by the Roman Catholic church during 1800-1910, usually the baptism was performed within 1-3 days of the birth. I did not examine the dates on the calender to see if they were always performed on the 1st Sunday (during church service) following the birth. However, I think if a baby is born on a Monday, then the baptism (if always on a Sunday) would be 6 days later.... but in general, from what I have seen, the baptism happened within about 1-3 days.

booby

sheep17
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Joined: 30 Jan 2009
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: baptisms in Chicago

The remark that "ALL Polish Baptisms in Chicago were held 7-10 days after birth" is not correct. My school
catechism (1930's) said that every Baptism should be done as soon as possible within the child's first month of life. I was Baptized on the 21st day, my brother the 15th day, and cousins were similar. Parents, aunts and uncles, who were 1st generation American, were Baptized anywhere from the 1st to the 10th day.
The regulation "in the first month" still was true when my cousins and I had our own children 20 years later.
(And if anyone wonders how I remember - that was a question on religion tests a number of times in 12 years).
The records for my ancestors in Poland that I have found, all list a Baptism within the first 10 days - most in the first 5 days.

sheep17

All Polska

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject:

Thank you

dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:13 am Post subject:

It appears that to move from individual experiences to general conclusions at least two things are necessary---a fairly substantial pool of information to be examined and that pool should be derived from a fair number of at least somewhat random sources. Here is a limited attempt to provide some statistics from which perhaps general conclusions may be drawn.
The choice of the Chicago parishes from which the data is drawn is not exactly random but is meant to be somewhat representative of various Polish parishes in the city during several decades from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Being a native of the South Side it was natural to draw more heavily from the more familiar South Side parishes. The parishes selected were chosen from among the older Polish parishes and represent several North Side parishes, one from Pilsen, another from Bridgeport, another from Back of the Yards, two from the Southeast Side and one from a suburb (Calumet City). The records chosen represent the decades beginning with 1870. (Only one parish represents the first decade. Another parish considered for that decade was St. Adalbert's but was not included because the format of those entries would have made the listing of stats too time consuming.) The stats are designed to provide data in regard to the question of the age of the infant at the time of baptism and also about the days of the week on which the baptisms occurred. The random aspect to the choice of statistics is found in the way the month and the year of the various records was chosen. The methodology was to bring up the list of records on the LDS site and then to choose the decade of interest. Then an image number was entered at random and and whatever month appeared was the month chosen for examination.

I would also like to add some personal observations regarding baptismal practices at the time studied and the relationship between the practices at that time in relation to contemporary customs. There are two canons from the Codex Iuris Canonici which deal with the questions examined. Canon 770 deals with the age question and reads: "Infantes quam primum baptizentur..." ("Infants ought to be baptized as soon as possible..."). "As soon as possible" was subject to interpretation. From the linguistic point of view the verb baptizentur is in the Subjunctive Mood and expresses something wished for or ordered. However, the force or strength of the Subjunctive is not as strong as it would have been had the verb been used as a Gerundive to express the obligation or necessity. Different national groups/cultures had various ideas about what "as soon as possible" meant in practical terms. In Italy or in Mexico it was often taken to mean within a year or two while in Northern Europe it was interpreted in terms of days rather than months or years. Canon 772 addresses the question about the day on which solemn baptisms should be celebrated and reads "Etiam solemnis baptismus qualibet die administrari potest..." ("Also a solemn baptism can be administered on whatever day you like..."). Contemporary practice may prefer Sundays and even Sundays during a parish Mass, but that was not the case in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The ritual (Rituale Romanum) in use from after the Council of Trent (16th Century) until after Vatican II in the late 1960s made no provision for baptism to take place during Mass but baptism was considered a "stand alone" rite or ceremony.

Statistics regarding baptisms in Poland is a topic for another time.

I hope the attached statistics help to clarify the answers to the two questions, albeit for one urban American location with information drawn from a limited database.

Dave

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rsowa
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:57 am Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

I hope the attached statistics help to clarify the answers to the two questions, albeit for one urban American location with information drawn from a limited database.

Dave

Being a bit of a geek, and a retired Engineer, I really enjoy seeing analyses like that. Thanks for doing it! For me, at least, it does help clarify what the common practice was. Because most of those in the Polish neighborhoods of Chicago were either recent immigrants, or the children of recent immigrants, I suspect that their Baptismal practices mirrored what they knew from the old country.

Richard

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