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ossnhughie
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: new birth village

Just received copy of the 1837 birth record of my 2nd Great Grandfather he was baptized in the Suderwa Roman Catholic church 24 January 1837 and was born on the 19th January. The village is translated as Zawiasach village, however loking at some old maps I can't seem to locate the said village around the Suderwa area. I'll turn it over to you folks in the PO universe for opinions ans input Smile

.

Dziekuje,

Hugh
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Philip
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:38 am Post subject:

Suderwa is now in Lithuania.

Click here: --> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suderwa
Click here: --> https://www.google.it/maps/search/Suderwa/@54.7482007,23.8160095,8z

In order to find out the Zawiasach village, you have to discover how is it called in Lithuanian, which is completely different from polish. Many villages changed their names after the occupations of poles, germans and russians.
Many villages often on the maps were in german.

Are you sure about the spelling of the village? Sometimes even a letter makes the difference.
Do you have an extract of the original document?

Phil

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:28 pm Post subject:

Phil,

As of yet I only have the archives translation of the village name, in other words they're sending the copies of the original baptismal register and it usually takes about 10-12 days for it to get here. I'm glad you pointed out the ever changing ethnic landscape of the area, mind you my 2nd great grandfather was born back in 1837 so this was before the great uprising of 1863, and the records are still in Polish. I am still looking to find a map of the area circa 1840 or so that's either in Polish or Lithuanian.

When I get the original Polish record I am going to have a few different folks look at it to see what they think it says.

Hugh
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Philip
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject:

Hugh,

ok, but I still haven't understood where are these docs stored and how you got them.
Do you know about the Polish State Archives (http://szukajwarchiwach.pl) and the Metryki Index Project ??(http://www.geneszukacz.genealodzy.pl/index.php?search_lastname=&from_date=&to_date=&rpp1=&bdm=&url1=&w=&lang=pol&op=se)

When you receive the original polish doc you can post it also here. I speak polish and I know that in most of the cases there were always surnames and places misspelled.

Phil

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: follow up

Philip,

Sorry for the confusing nature of my response, as a matter of fact all the records I have obtained and continue to be obtaining are the holdings of the Lithuanian State Historical Archives in Vilnius. As a matter of fact the 1837 birth Record from Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church is the first record that they have found that wasn't written in Russian. A whole slew of records from the early 1900's back to the late 1840's have so far all been in Russian. I will certainly submit once the actual records (9 in total) arrive from Lithuania.

I seem to have lucked out in finding the Ancestral homeland and it doesn't seem they strayed too far from the area over the century I have been researching. That might have to do with being serfs attached to the land or something, but alas this is beyond the scope of my understanding.

Thanks for the response you were the 1st to take a crack at it Smile

Hugh
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Philip
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:25 pm Post subject:

Hugh,

ok, all clear!
I've research a little bit but I don't really know where you could find this town.
But I'm quiet sure it was misspelled.
I order to find out the solution you obviously need the original docs.

However, while you wait for those docs you could try to contact the Suderwa major!

Here what I found: http://www.vilniaus-r.lt/index.php?id=2657

Probably they have some maps, or at least know where to ask!
Why not!

Have a nice research,

Phil

Henryk
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject:

It is probably Zawiasy (Lith ?), parish dukszty pijarskie (Lith Dukstas). LDS records available:

Metrical books, 1797-1868
Roman Catholic Church. Dukshty (Vil′na) (Main Author)
Language: Russian, Polish, Latin

Publication: Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 2007-2011
Physical: on 25 microfilm reels ; 35 mm.

Notes
Microreproduction of original manuscripts in the Lithuanian State Historical Archives in Vilnius.
Roman Catholic Church records (births, marriages, deaths, confessions) for Dukshty, Vil′na, Vil′na, Russia; later Dukszty Pijarskie (Wilno-Troki), Wilno, Poland; then Dūkštos, Lithuania. Some records include indexes. Text in Polish, Latin and Russian.

Record group 604, series 10, file 105 -- Record group 604, series 11, file 27 -- Record group 604, series 13, file 83 -- Record group 604, series 20, files 63-80, 80a, 82, 84-85, 87, 89, 92, 94, 101-102, 106, 124-125, 127-130 -- Record group 604, series 22, files 1-3, 8.

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject:

Henryk is this town you suggested near Suderwa? The Family seems to have had all of their baptisms in Suderwa. Supposedly their are still Michalkiewicz's (Surname of paternal Grandfather) living in the Suderwa area. I won't know till I get original; but partial trascript from Lithuanian Historical Archives lists the aforementioned village. Later records of his children and marriage list them as being residents of village of Dabrowciszki and members of the Rostyniany Community (these were later records from the 1860's-early 1900's).

The Polish army maps from the 1920's and 30's have been very helpful though.

Will continue to monitor thread with great interest Smile

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject:

Henryk wrote:

It is probably Zawiasy (Lith ?), parish dukszty pijarskie (Lith Dukstas). LDS records available:

Well done Henryk.

"zawiasy" = "hinges" in Polish

The place is indicated also on radzima.net
http://www.radzima.net/eng/miejsce/zawiasy.html

Polish language is with declensions, "Zawiasach" is one of cases, it's necessary to recover nominative.
Zawiasy - nominative plural
Zawiasow
Zawiasom
Zawiasami
Zawiasach

Best,
Elzbieta

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject:

Elzbieta,

Thanks for the confirmation, and Henryk thanks for the original finding. Now how far is this village from Suderwa? If he was born Here in 1837 and they seemingly have their own Catholic Church why was he brought to Suderwa for baptism? I know this is all really guess work but whatever guesses yyou have would be appreciated greatly.

Thanks again PO gurus Smile

Hugh

Henryk
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject:

It is Dukstos, not Dukstas.
Dukstos, Suderwa and Zawiasy are within 15 km of each other:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=54.744046&lon=24.928837&z=12&m=b&search=zawiasy%20lithuania
LDS records for Suderwa:

Metrical books, 1797-1915
Roman Catholic Church. Suderva (Vil′na) (Main Author)
Language: Polish, Russian, Latin
Publication: Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 2007-2011
Physical:on 50 microfilm reels ; 35 mm.
Notes
Microreproduction of original manuscripts in the Lithuanian State Historical Archives in Vilnius.
Roman Catholic Church records (births, marriages, deaths, confessions) for Suderva, Vil′na, Vil′na, Russia; later Suderwa (Wilno-Troki), Wilno, Poland; now Sudervė, Lithuania. Some records include indexes. Text in Polish, Latin and Russian.

Record group 604, series 10, file 48 -- Record group 604, series 11, file 27 -- Record group 604, series 13, file 93 -- Record group 604, series 19, files 87, 90 -- Record group 604, series 20, files 60-80, 80a, 82, 84-85, 87, 89, 92, 94, 101-102, 106, 124-132, 132a, 133-136, 217-228, 250-277 -- Record group 604, series 22, files 1-7.

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject:

My Friends,

I just looked at the 1935 Polish army map and it places such a Village "Dukszty Pijarskie" to the notheast of the Horshoe bend in the Neris river, not to far from another village found in some records "Kozakiszki". Now the question from the Polish/Lithuanian ignorant Person how is Zwiaszch become Dukszty Pijarskie?

Hugh

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject:

Henryk,

Indeed the Lithuanian Historical archives for a relatively modest fee have gone through (and continue to) go through the metric books for Suderwa and have found much fruit. I am no historian on the plight of Polish peasants in this area but would have to think before the "Czar Liberator" had abolished serfdom that my ancestors were most likely "tied" to the land in this area, or am I way off base here? History lesson would be appreciated and useful.

Hugh Smile

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Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.

Henryk
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

how is Zwiaszch become Dukszty Pijarskie?

They are two different places, the latter being the location of the parish church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Poland
History of serfdom in Poland.

ossnhughie
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject:

Ok will look for the actual village in the same area. sorry for confusion/ignorance.

Also thank you for article on subject of Serfdom.

Hugh

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