Martin Feledziak
Joined: 18 Nov 2013
Replies: 29
Location: EnglandBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:33 am
Post subject:
Elzbieta..
Very many thanks for your work and links to the history pages.
This all makes very good sense now.
I shall study them in great detail.
Walenty had two brothers who were in the German Army. Martin who was a prisoner of war in 1917 and Andreas who I do not know his history.
This makes me think that the family were forced and conscripted into military life.
Many Thanks
Martin Feledziak
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:17 am
Post subject: Re: Death Records Magdalena (Mazurek) Łos in 1825 or 1833
Jan
117: she was 65 (not sure), a daughter of Dominik and Franciszka Matyk
53: she was 70 (not sure), widow, the declarant was her son Jacek Los, 37 y.o.
The word is 'w domu pod numerem czernasty' living at house #14.
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:19 am
Post subject: Re: Death Records Magdalena (Mazurek) Łos in 1825 or 1833
Magroski49 wrote: |
Jan
117: she was 65 (not sure), a daughter of Dominik and Franciszka Matyk
53: she was 70 (not sure), widow, the declarant was her son Jacek Los, 37 y.o.
The word is 'w domu pod numerem czernasty' living at house #14.
Gilberto |
Jan, Gilberto,
117: this Magdalena is a baby 5 weeks old (umarla Magdalena niedziel piec majaca // died Magdalena 5 Sundays old)
Best,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:25 am
Post subject: I need translation - 1821 two rececords same father???
Hi Elzbieta
Continuing my mother's family research, I received the Plock archive the information contained in the Geneteka about Konstantin 1830 (Gostynin) is really the father of my great-grandfather.
Kontantin Dabrowski son of Maciej Dabrowski and Katarzyna Kucharski born in 1830 Gostynin.
I found also two births in 1821 that can be brothers Konstantin but I think in the second mother's name is different but the same last name
Maryanna record number 31 http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/409/0/-/13/skan/full/yD_N2CH4hl_7FF3PNvsoAg?hc_location=ufi
Michal record number 132
link http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/.../sk.../full/dj_F3eF6JFDmw4q8LfIBNA
I ask for help in the translation to see if they are brothers.
I appreciate the help.
Silvia Parapinski
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:38 am
Post subject: Re: I need translation - 1821 two rececords same father???
Silvia,
Maryanna seems to be sister of Konstantin, but not Michal, his mother name in the record 132 is different [Antonina Kuchowna]. We can also discard a potential mistake in mother's name, because it is quite difficult for a mother to have two babies with 7 months of difference in age.
There are other problems in this records from Trębki, Gostynin.
First, the scibe did not write inside record the name of village of birth - the only name of village is with the record number (no village given for witnesses, no village given for parents).
Second, on the page of record 132, all records have the same date 13 September 1821, and all births are posteriors of 13 September!
I would suggest to verify estimated age of Maciej Dąbrowski on all records you have, and the place he resided.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/409/0/-/13/skan/full/yD_N2CH4hl_7FF3PNvsoAg?hc_location=ufi
DATE-of-ACT: 18 February 1821, in Trębki [NOTE: Lubieniec at the beginning of this record? It is not written that Maciej Dąbrowski resides in Lubieniec]
FATHER: Maciej Dąbrowski, farmer, 50 years old [BIRTH-ESTIMATE: 1771]
MOTHER: Katarzyna Kucharska, 28 years old, his wife
KTO: Maryanna Dąbrowska, born 17 February 1821, 8 pm, [where?], house at number fifth
WITNESSES: Bartlomiej Jaworski, thirty years old, and Jan Kurpienski, twenty-six years old
31 Lubieniec
Roku tysiac osiemset dwudziestego pierwszego, dnia osiemnastego lutego. Przed nami, proboszczem Trębskim sprawujacym obowiazki Urzednika Stanu Cywilnego gminy Trębskiej w powiecie Gostynskim wojewodztwie Mazowieckim. Stawil sie osobiscie Maciej Dąbrowski, gospodarz lat piecdziesiat liczacy, i okazal nam dziecie plci zenskiej, ktore sie urodzilo w domu jego pod numerem piatym, na dniu wczorajszym o godzinie osmej wieczor, oswiadczajac iz jest splodzone z niego i z Katarzyny Kucharskiej, lat dwadziescia osiem liczacej, jego malzonki, i ze zyczeniem ich jest nadac mu imie Maryanna. Po oswiadczeniu i okazaniu nam dzieciecia, w przytomnosci swiadkow Bartlomieja Jaworskiego lat trzydziesci, i Jana Kurpienskiego lat dwadziescia szesc liczacych. Akt niniejszy zostal stawajacym przeczytany i przez nas podpisany, gdyz stawajacy pisac nie umieja.
Ksiadz Stanislaw Kaczynski, Proboszcz i Urzednik Stanu Cywilnego.
Translated:
Year one thousand eight hundred and twenty-first, on the eighteenth day of February. Before us, pastor in Trębki, exercising duties of the officer of Civil Vital Records Registry for the community Trębki, county Gostynin, voivodship Mazowieckie. Appeared in person Maciej Dąbrowski, farmer fifty years old, and presented us a female child, born in his house at number fifth, yesterday at eight o’clock in the evening, declaring he is begotten of him and Katarzyna Kucharska, twenty-eight years old, his wife, and their will is to give him the name Maryanna. After the declaration, and the presentation of the child, in the consciousness of witnesses Bartlomiej Jaworski, thirty years old, and Jan Kurpienski, twenty-six years old. This Act was read to the present and signed by us, because they do not know how to write.
Priest Stanislaw Kaczynski, pastor and officer of Civil Vital Records Registry
==
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:54 pm
Post subject:
Thanks for the translation Elzbieta
I will ask next to Plock file the birth of Kontantin 1830 and the death Maciej Dabrowski 1834, Magroski is helping me.
I have a few old data, I was not sure that Maciej dabrowski that had the geneteka death in 1834 was the father of Konstantin, but now that requested the search was confirmed that he was widower of Katarzyna Kucharski.
About Konstantin I know he married the first time in Leg in 1855 contained in the certificate that his father was dead and his mother lived in Gabin (Gombin) - Has this record in geneteka.
Konstantin had with his first wife three children who also appear in geneteka, and his wife died in 1872 in Dobrin (only the data in Geneteka) but I already ordered the record, and also I got the second marriage to Antonina Lewandowski my great-great grandfather. The children included only the first in Dobrin, then they do not appear in any database.
In 1891 we have the widow Antonina Lewandowki Dabrowski arriving in Brazil with 5 children. (Leon - Wanda - Boleslaw (my great-grandfather) - Zofia and Andrzey).
Antonina remarried in Brazil in 1892 and in the certificate states that she was a widow of Konstantin Dabrowski but does not tell where he died or when there years.
Silvia Parapinski
My mother is 80 years old and she is very happy when I research your family.
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:53 pm
Post subject:
Parapinski wrote: | Thanks for the translation Elzbieta
I will ask next to Plock file the birth of Kontantin 1830 and the death Maciej Dabrowski 1834, Magroski is helping me.
I have a few old data, I was not sure that Maciej dabrowski that had the geneteka death in 1834 was the father of Konstantin, but now that requested the search was confirmed that he was widower of Katarzyna Kucharski.
About Konstantin I know he married the first time in Leg in 1855 contained in the certificate that his father was dead and his mother lived in Gabin (Gombin) - Has this record in geneteka.
Konstantin had with his first wife three children who also appear in geneteka, and his wife died in 1872 in Dobrin (only the data in Geneteka) but I already ordered the record, and also I got the second marriage to Antonina Lewandowski my great-great grandfather. The children included only the first in Dobrin, then they do not appear in any database.
In 1891 we have the widow Antonina Lewandowki Dabrowski arriving in Brazil with 5 children. (Leon - Wanda - Boleslaw (my great-grandfather) - Zofia and Andrzey).
Antonina remarried in Brazil in 1892 and in the certificate states that she was a widow of Konstantin Dabrowski but does not tell where he died or when there years.
Silvia Parapinski
My mother is 80 years old and she is very happy when I research your family. |
Silvia,
Your family story is amazing.
I wish you to find all records, and to enjoy with your mother.
Best,
Elzbieta
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fopuszyn
Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Replies: 177
Location: Connecticut USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:31 pm
Post subject:
Elzbieta,
Thank you for your last translation. I realize recorded age in any of these old records are always suspect. Based on what you translated, Katarzyna was 68 when she died in 1851. Therefore, she was born in 1783. My 4G GF married a woman named Kartarzyna in 1790. Assuming the recorded age is somewhat accurate (+/- 5 years or so), the Katarzyna in the translated record might be still too young. I was hoping for a born year ~1770 or so.
I plan keep the 1851 Kataryzna on the side line until I can substantiate further or locate a better match.
Frank
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ZenonPolishOrigins Team Leader
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1515
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:29 pm
Post subject: Re: How to post under correct Topic: Latin, Polish, Russian
Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | janbee wrote: | I hope I'm posting this in the correct Topic for a Translation from Polish to English |
Oops, no.
Under "Research in Poland" (left column Forum), we have 3 boxes (middle column, Latest Topic):
Latin records translations
Polish records translations
Russian records translations
I attach my homemade method how to post a new item to the correct box in 3 click.
Best,
Elzbieta |
Elzbieta,
Thank you very much for preparing the short presentation about how to post under given topic .
In the second step instead of clicking on "New topic" one should click on "Post reply". If you click on "New topic" you will create new topic outside of the topic you are currently in. (I added picture)
I think it may be helpful to add your short presentation as separate message at the beginning of each, Russian, Polish and Latin translation topic with the three pictures. What do you think?
I will take care of that.
Thank you Elzbieta for the idea
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janbeePolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 19 Oct 2014
Replies: 30
Location: Washington DC, USABack to top |
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:09 pm
Post subject:
A special Thank you to Elzbieta and Zenon for clarifying postings for translation requests. Hopefully I will do better in the future!
Also:
Elzbieta and Gilberto: Many thanks for your assistance in transcribing the Death Records for Magdalena (Mazurek) Łos in No. 53 in 1825 or No 117 in 1833.
Obviously No. 53 (a 5week old baby) is not a great grandparent, and Record 53 might be her but there really is not sufficient information.
Thank you again for everything you do!
Regards,
JanBee
_________________ Janbee
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
Back to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:56 am
Post subject: Church name format
I have a question regarding the right way to enter a Polish church name in my genealogy software. For example, would it be Parafia św. Jana Chrzciciela rather than Kościół św. Jana Chrzciciela? Does parafia (parish) or kościół (church) come before the name?
Thanks,
Diane
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:43 am
Post subject: Citing Parish Names
Diane,
I suppose that it it would depend on where and why you are entering the citation. If you are citing a source as a civil transcript from the Russian Partition then the source should be entered with the name of the parish not the church. Keep in mind that parishes did "double duty" in the sense that the parish was the place where religious ceremonies took place but it was also a place where civil vital records were recorded. A civil transcript should be entered without reference to the name of the patron saint of the church in a format like: Parafia Rzymsko-Katolicka Przedecz akta urodzen (or whatever category the event falls under) 1834 #33. If your program allows for additional details for the entry of a place where an event took place, then it would probably be appropriate for an event like a baptism to enter either the title of the parish or the patron saint of the church. If you are entering a citation of a record from an ecclesiastical record like baptism then the citation should be entered in the language of the record (usually Latin). Again, the usual way in which such records appear is using the name of the location of the parish without reference to the patron saint. All this, of course, applies to places which have only one parish. Cities with multiple parishes would require the name of the parish. The preferred method would be to use the word parafia rather than kosciol and it should appear before the name of the saint.
If you are entering the information in something like note about the person involved, then it would be a matter of personal choice regarding how you want to inter the information. In that type of situation it would be appropriate to use either parafia or kosciol. When entering such notes my personal practice is to use the English words "parish" or "church" rather than the Polish words. What I usually do when writing such a narrative is I keep the text in English and then enter the Polish version of the place name in parentheses. E.G. the narrative would read something like: "she was baptized in the parish church St. Vitus (sw.Wit) in Slupy".
Hope this clarifies rather than confuses.
Dave
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:32 pm
Post subject: Use of an alias
I have ancestors in the Poryte parish using Dąbrowski alias Wierzbicki. I don't really understand why there are two names! The small part of an 1859 marriage record shown here has some extra words I cannot figure out that I hope might help me. Thanks to Zenon's wonderful help on my trip, I have been able to learn lots more about my grandfather's family. But this new twist has got me confused!
Thanks! Andie Criminger
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Use of an alias
andie wrote: | I have ancestors in the Poryte parish using Dąbrowski alias Wierzbicki. I don't really understand why there are two names! The small part of an 1859 marriage record shown here has some extra words I cannot figure out that I hope might help me. Thanks to Zenon's wonderful help on my trip, I have been able to learn lots more about my grandfather's family. But this new twist has got me confused!
Thanks! Andie Criminger |
Andie,
Here is your record typed and translated, with few notes.
dąb=oak, wierzba=willow
Best,
Elzbieta
==
==PO187:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/ignacy_2_751.jpg
… zawarte zostalo religijne malzenstwo miedzy Ignacym, wedlug metryki urodzenia Dąbrowskim, a ksiega ludnosci Wierzbickim nazywanym, mlodzianem urodzonym w Gromadzynie Starym, synem Tomasza i Katarzyny z Kokoszków, malzonkow Dąbrowskich vel Wierzbickich, wyrobnikow w Gromadzynie Starym
Translated:
... have been concluded religious marriage between Ignacy, according to birth certificate Dąbrowski, and called Wierzbicki in the book of the population, young man, born in Stary Gromadzyn, son of Tomasz and Katarzyna born Kokoszka, spouses Dąbrowski aka Wierzbicki, laborers in Stary Gromadzyn
==
Why two different names?
“vel” means also known as
[no difference between, say, Dąbrowski and Dombrowski in old records, it is a matter of orthography]
I would also add a question:
When and where were the books of population (census) prepared, and for what purposes? In which villages and cities?
The old geography book gives population in Poryte in 1827 as 139 persons in 23 houses.
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_VIII/833
Poryte: w 1827r 23 dm, 139 mk.
The wiki gives more information, in particular that in 1872, the brick church (no more wooden) was serving a population of a parish of 3520 composed of 5 villages (Poryte, Zaborowo, Grabowo, Hipolitowo, Ignacewo)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poryte
Actually Stary Gromadzyn is much closer to Kolno (2 km) than to Poryte, do I guess correctly that your record is from parish Kolno?
In birth records in Poland up to WWII the birth name is father name, unless father unknown.
I found few explanations for “vel”, from genealogy experience.
* Two families wanted to preserve their name after a marriage Y-groom with X-bride. On the birth record the child name is his father name, but in other cases (census, marriage, death, etc.) other name could be used.
* The child was born as illegitimate (unmarried woman), but in the small village everybody knows who is who, and then two names are used, also in subsequent cases (census, marriage, death, etc.).
* For various reasons a person have to use an alternate name to hide himself (war or occupation; or being searched for illegal acts).
==
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:47 am
Post subject:
Elzbieta,
Ryszard has already done the translations for these two records written in Russian. He suggested that I ask you to translate the notations written in Polish in the margins. Thank you so much for your help.
Katherine
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