looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
Back to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:33 am
Post subject:
Joe,
In your post you said "I did find a WWII Draft Registration document that lists my grandfather's birthplace as Greboff, Poland. However, when I Google the name Greboff nothing comes up. There is a Grebow" I see that Cheri thought it could be Grybów.
In my research there is a town of Opatów/ It is pronounced as if the word ended in the letters "of" and some US documents contained the of spelling because that's how it sounds. In a pronunciation guide "How to Pronounce and Recognize Your Polish Town and Family Names by Fay Vogel Bussgang" http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Poland/PronunciationGuide.pdf it says "The final consonant of a word is unvoiced, i.e., the larynx (voice box) is not used to create the sound. The following letters change to their unvoiced counterpart at the end of a word: b→p, d→t, dz→c, dź→ć, dż→cz, g→k, rz/ż→sz, w→f, z→s. Therefore, Brzeg sounds like "Bzhek," and Kraków sounds like "Krakóf"
You might want to get a confirmation of the pronunciation of the town from a Polish speaker.
Good luck.
Diane
|
|
|
Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Replies: 497
Back to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:40 am
Post subject:
Diane,
Thanks for sharing that information. I did know that a g at the end of a word would sound like a k. And of course the Polish w sounds like a v. That is why my sister had Novy Tark written as my grandmother's birth place, but it wasn't until now that I considered that my grandmother may have written down the English pronunciation for her.
Joe,
When you mentioned Grebow, all I could find was Grębów. I did not do an extensive search of possibilities, that was the only "Grebow" that showed up for me. I did know the ę makes the en sound, which would not sound like Greboff. I also know that sometimes surnames and place names are written sloppy, I mean not necessarily phonetically, on documents and the census. The example that I mentioned was my great grandmother's surname Boczkaj, which was spelled Bortsky. When I chose all 5 Polish speakers at https://www.ivona.com/, it sounds like Botchki or Bochki (with the i as in kite).
I hadn't considered Grybów until I saw that it was near one of the villages of Siedliska on the map that Dave posted. I just copied and pasted that name into https://www.ivona.com/ and listened to all Polish speakers. It does sound like Greboff to me, and sometimes Griboff. I do not offer that as proof, but because of the Siedliska that is near Grybów, I do think it's a strong possibility. Maybe there will be something on your grandfather's Naturalization records. Maybe you won't know for certain until you see his baptismal record from a Polish church. It does look like a beautiful place http://www.siedliska.info/
Cheri
|
|
|
jebawolekPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Replies: 10
Back to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:23 pm
Post subject:
Cheri, Diane, thanks for your help. I wish I had learned the Polish language when there was an opportunity. My parents would speak Polish with other family members and sometimes when they didn’t want the kids to know what they were saying. Now that I’m MUCH older I wish I did know the language. What you relate regarding language/pronunciations is so interesting. And it’s understandable how names and or spellings could have gotten recorded erroneously.
I think Cheri is on the right track with her analysis of Grybow and Siedliska. In the WWII draft registration document for my grandfather’s brother (Kazimierz), his place of birth is listed as Bobowa. When I look at a map, Bobowa and Siedliska are in very close proximity to one another. From what I can tell through researching the Internet, Bobowa would have been the gmina (administrative district/municipality) for Siedliska. I picture this in USA terms as maybe Siedliska being a subdivision within a larger city/town (Bobowa).
It appears that Siedliska/Bobowa are within the county of Gorlice and only about 1 mile apart. Grybow appears to be a larger town further south but only 12 miles from Siedliska. I found through Internet research that Grybow was at one point a primary hub for the cloth industry. An interesting point is that my grandfather was a tailor by trade. It makes me wonder whether that is just a coincidence or whether he and the family were engaged in that industry for many years/generations based upon the locale.
The link showing pictures of Siedliska is magnificent. What a beautiful place. It makes me want to go visit and look for the Baptismal records at the local churches. However, since I do not speak Polish that might be a futile endeavor.
Thanks again,
Joe
|
|
|
Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Replies: 497
Back to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 5:41 pm
Post subject:
Joe,
You are correct, Bobowa is the Gmina for Siedliska. That is great that Bobowa was written on Kazimier's draft registration! Now I'm convinced that this has to be the right Siedliska.
I had read a little about Grybow too, and noted the cloth industry. I also wondered if that had anything to do with your grandfather's occupation, and grandmother's?
I know how you feel about wishing you knew Polish. I wish I did too. I have written to a cousin in Poland using Google translate. I would write very short sentences, and after translating them into Polish, I would translate them back to English to see if it made sense. It's far from perfect, but it was cool to be able to communicate.
If you were to go to Poland, you could hire a translator for part of your trip. My dream is to get there too. If you want to see your grandparents' baptismal records, you could try writing to the priests. There are online letter writing guides that show examples in the Polish language. I have read that priests get busy during the summer wedding season, so now would be a good time to write. Some priests will write back, some won't. If you did get your grandparents baptismal records, they would have your great-great grandparents names. The child's grandparents' names are on that record.
Cheri
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2793
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:19 pm
Post subject:
Joe & Cheri,
Linguistic considerations and contemporary geography aside, what really nails down Siedliska near Grybow as the correct place rather than Siedliska near Grebow is late 19th Century geography. Grebow is out of the running because the village of Siedliska relatively near Grebow was not in Austrian Poland aka Galicia. It was in Russian Poland aka the Kingdom of Poland (Krolestwo Polskie). In that area the Vistula River formed the border between Austrian Poland/Galicia and Russian Poland and that particular Siedliska was on the wrong side of the river.
Cheri,
Yes, that is where I found Catherine's paperwork. The naturalization index cards on Family Search work well for post 1930 petitions. One difficulty with earlier Cook County naturalization records is that there were a number of courts in Chi-town where a person could be naturalized and I suspect each court numbered petitions according to its own system. The INS index card petition number worked perfectly for Catherine because it was a later naturalization. To add to the mix, Kazimierz's petition is indexed on the INS card on Family Search. Some of the info is the same as what is found on the Cook County Clerk's site, but it also provides the added info of the date he was naturalized. I'm sure that if one had a sufficient amount of time and patience it would be possible to browse through the images on Family Search and eventually possibly locate the papers for Jan and for Kazimierz. Joe, I would just bite the bullet and order the papers from the Cook County Clerk's office. That is what I had to do to obtain my maternal grandfather's and my maternal great grandfather's and my father's (he was 5 years old when he came to the US) papers in the days before that stuff was online. As I recall, it was not expensive---somewhere around $10. The reason that there are two sets of papers for Jan is that there was a time limit within which the naturalization process had to be complete. If it was not completed in a timely fashion then the person had to file a declaration of intention a second time. The advantage to ordering the papers from the archives of the court is that you get all the papers except the actual naturalization certificate which was given to the new citizen at the time of naturalization. His or her copy was the only copy of that document.
Although English is my first language I was fortunate to have been exposed to Polish as a child and am able to speak, read and write the language. I also have a fair amount of experience helping to fill out naturalization paperwork back in the 70s for the relatives of some of my Mexican friends. (Spanish is my third modern lingo.) I know how necessary it is to correctly phrase the questions in order to get accurate answers. Since many of the Polish immigrants had not been in the USA all that long their command of English was rather limited. If the person filling out the forms did not speak Polish and the petitioner's command of English was not great usually a third party who was more fluent in both languages acted as a go between which increased the chances of varying info being entered on different papers.
But anyway, Joe, you now should have enough info to give you a good start on going back in time with your family tree.
Wishing you success,
Dave
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
64.23 KB |
| Viewed: |
5479 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
500.06 KB |
| Viewed: |
5479 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
952.1 KB |
| Viewed: |
5479 Time(s) |
|
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2793
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:56 pm
Post subject: Contact Info Parish of Siedliska
Joe,
Attached is one more piece of info---the parish of Siedliska contact information in case you decide to follow up on Cheri's suggestion to contact the parish. The best way to look at a gmina in terms of USA administrative divisions is that a gmina is more or less similar to a township here. Bobowa is a town which is the center of the gmina or in our terms the township of Bobowa and Siedliska is a village within the boundaries of that township but not a subdivision of the town of Bobowa.
Dave
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
109.61 KB |
| Viewed: |
5479 Time(s) |
|
|
|
|
jebawolekPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Replies: 10
Back to top |
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:06 am
Post subject:
Cheri, I will try to contact the local churches and thanks for the tips on communicating in Polish via the various apps/Internet options. I didn’t know they existed. Great info.
Dave, your explanation of the geography makes a lot of sense and in one of the documents my grandfather listed his former country as being Austria. It prompted me to research it bit further and I found that section of Poland had been under Austrian rule for over 100 years.
Dave, your explanation of the land administration hierarchy in Poland, and how it relates in US terms, makes it much easier for me to understand. Also, thanks much for the lead on the parish in Siedliska. That will be my first stop in trying to find Baptismal records. What a great looking little church. The whole area looks really beautiful based on what I can tell from the link Cheri provided earlier.
Cheri, Dave and everyone connected with PO have been outstanding. You really have given me a lot of information and resources for getting started on finding out more about my family history.
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:42 pm
Post subject: I have the records..... :-)
Joe,
Please contact me directly at [email protected] - I have copies of your family's records.
Mike
Kazimierz Bałowek born September 4, 1882 in Siedliska, House #47 to Wojciech Bałowek (son of Antoni Bałowek and Marianna ?) and Zofia Bognn? (daughter of Jan Bognn? and Marianna Fochonek?) He was baptized on September 5, 1882.
The names are a bit hard to read, but hopefully this all makes sense to you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Register