ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:05 pm
Post subject: new old picture found...help identifying approx time frame?
Hello my PO friends,
Over the past weekend I found a very close DNA match on ancestry.com (I can't say enough good about DNA tests to find relatives) Luckily for me, he manages his own account and his screen name has his last name in it. Turns out Mr. Leon Minta is my second cousin, His maternal grandfather and my maternal grandfather were brothers!! (Ralph Wagner b: Rafal Jozef Michalkiewicz and Alexander Antoni Michalkiewicz).
He was very pleased to see how far back I have gone in our common Polish ancestors trees, then he drops a huge surprise in my lap: His mother inherited from Rafal an old picture that has me and Leon's great-great grandparents in it!! The picture is old and damaged but there is zero doubt on their identies. Lucky for us my great uncle Ralph labeled who they were. They are Adolf and Jozefa (Fronckiewicz) Szymkiewicz.
Now I am trying to indetify an approximate time of the picture. Adolf was born in 1862 (i have his birth record) Jozefa was born in 1864 (also have record). They were married in 1884 (have record) and their first-born child, Weronika was born in March 1885 (my great grandmother-have record). He came to the USA ahead of wife and children in June of 1906. Jozefa and the children followed in February 1908 (have immigration manifests for both).
He died on 15 June of 1927 and she died 30 April 1936.
Given the infor we know the picture must have been taken between 1884 and 1927 when he passed, any ideas or clues based on clothing or other factors (perhaps you have similar period photos)
Hugh
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1030
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:14 am
Post subject:
Hi Hugh,
How wonderful to be able to receive a photo like that of your ancestors!
I want to comment on the fact that Jozefa is wearing her watch on her blouse. I think you may try to pursue that clue to see whether it is indicative of a specific era in womens' fashion, or whether it tells you something about the kind of work she did. Do you know if she was a nurse or a midwife? It would have been very practical to be able to look at your watch without having to use your hands...
Best of luck in finding out more about this picture.
Sophia
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:47 pm
Post subject:
Sophia,
Thanks for your response, it is my intention to have the photo restored via an online photo restoring service. It is funny you mention the pocket watch, as I thought that was an odd ornament for a woman to be wearing also. What is also interesting is my great aunt Jozefa Michalkiewicz (the grand daughter of Adolf and Jozefa) in her 1st Holy Communion Photo from about 1915-1920 (I am unsure of the age that the sacrament was administered in those days; She was born in 1908) She is wearing an necklace and what clearly seems to be a poclet watch on her communion gown.
I will attach photo.
Hugh
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Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:10 am
Post subject:
That is interesting Sophia. I have a photo of my grandmother taken between 1914 - 1917. My mom thought she was wearing a locket in the photo, but now I think it must have been a pocket watch. A quick look online, and I see that a company started making women's pocket watches in 1860 and they were popular during the Victorian era (and beyond?). My grandmother was also wearing a white blouse and dark skirt - the fashion of the time. She had immigrated in 1914, so I imagine she had the photo taken to send to her family in Poland.
Hugh, is there a photographer's mark on the photo? My guess, only a guess, is that it might have been taken in the U.S. sometime after Jozefa had immigrated.
Cheri
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:50 am
Post subject:
Cheri,
I will have to ask my cousin Leon as he has the original. The only thing he mentioned on the back of the photo was the names of the subjects in the photo. Given the dates of birth of them my guess is this is sometime circa 1915, which would put Adolf at about age 53 and his wife at about 51. It's hard for me to tell ages in old photos (even young adults tended to look old in pictures back then). But I am guessing ages 45-55 in this photo.
Hugh
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Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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rsowaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
Replies: 177
Location: Dundee, Michigan, USABack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:51 pm
Post subject:
Two more things to look at in the photo...
His tie and button down collar. That seems to be later era...1910-1920 period.
Gray hair...depending on the family, some didn't get gray hair till they were much older. But it (at least for my families) was pretty consistent at around 45-55, and has helped me date some of my old photos.
Richard
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:48 am
Post subject:
Richard, I think your observation about hair color is an excellent one. The way there is glare on this particular photo, it is hard for me to tell whether this couple has gray hair or merely graying hair. I think they could easiely be in their fifties or even in their forties, making it possible that the picture was taken in Poland before Adolf emigrated in 1906 so that he and she would both have a photo of themselves while they were apart.
Cheri, most interesting! I do, though, want to make a distinction between a "pocket watch" which I think of as having a long chain (and which hangs right-side-up from its chain), as you see in Hugh's great-aunt's communion photo, and a "fob watch" which does not have a chain but rather has a kind of clip or pin and is upside-down so that the wearer can just look down at it and read the time. If you look closely at Jozefa's photo, you do not see any chain. That is what made me think she might have been a midwife or nurse.
Hugh, take a look at this website: http://glamourdaze.com/history-of-womens-fashion/1900-to-1919 and see what you think. There are some pictures there that seem to be similar to what Jozefa is wearing in your photo. One of the difficult things, of course, when you google "fashion" of a particular period is that you often get formal fashion rather than everyday clothing. Nonetheless, two of the pictures there seem to show the same kind of white button-down blouse with long wrist cuffs that Jozefa is wearing - - I refer to the "Edwardian Fashion Cromwell Road 1905" where the woman is shown walking on the street and the "1905 Siberian Woman Wears Blouse and Skirt" with the woman sitting at a table. I know, the collars are very different. If not from around 1906, then I do think your picture is around WWI when womens' clothing became much more practical than it had been. Let us know if you solve the puzzle of what year this was taken!
Best,
Sophia
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rsowaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
Replies: 177
Location: Dundee, Michigan, USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:33 am
Post subject:
One more quick thought. Folks in my history were poor and didn't have a lot of good clothing. They tended to keep their good stuff for special occasions, and that might be as long as a decade after they bought it. In other words, the clothing in their photos might NOT reflect the period when the photo was taken, but might be from many years earlier.
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:56 am
Post subject:
Hello all,
Still no response from my cousin Leon, however he is quite busy these days. I think he would have told me about date stamps or manufacturers markings. I know quite a bit about there backgrounds thanks in large part to help from this forum translating records.
Adolf's parents Konstanty and Julia (Dowiat) Szymkieeicz were both from noble families. Adolf's parents in particular were involved in the administration of there home village Szyrwinty. Jozefa's parents, Jozef and Marcjanna (Rogowicz) Frackiewicz were also both of noble class also less is known about her folks position however the Frackiewicz-Radziminski clan going way back had some Grand Duchy officials in it.
It is fair to say by the time Adolf and his bride were married in 1884 that whatever wealth or property the families had were long gone (I have been told the January and November risings were particularly devastating for the szlachta class). So if photo was taken in USA they were firmly in the working class typical of most immigrants.
I will continue to plod away.
Hugh
_________________
Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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