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Emigration Ports
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Mary Pate



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Replies: 56
Location: Overland Park, KS

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Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 1:53 pm      Post subject: Emigration Ports
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Confused I guess you can call this -- inquisitive minds! Does anyone know what might have been the reason for coming imto Ellis Island or going through Baltimore when coming to America?
My paternal grandparents came through Ellis in 1900 and my mother's parents came through Baltimore in 1905. Both came directly to the same town in the Midwest. The paternal grandparents came from Austrian controlled and the others, from Poznan Province (German). Both were Polish by "ethnicity" as the ship manifests show.
Appreciate any comment on this.

Mary Pate
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Don



Joined: 13 May 2010
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Location: Temperance, Mi

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Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:03 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Mary,
My Uncle came here in 1909 and passed through Ellis Island. He was the first family member to emmigrate. His brother [my Dad] came through Baltimore, Md. in 1913. I feel it was because a family member was already here. My aunt came here through Philidelphia, Pa. in 1911 to join my Uncle. I think the first time immigants had to go through Castle Garden and later when Ellis Island opened.

Don
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:52 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Mary,

The reason for choosing the port of Baltimore rather than NY may very well be found in the steamship line used to come to the US. In 1868 North German Lloyd (Norddeutscher Lloyd) and the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad entered into an agreement for joint marketing to potential immigrants. Agents made the rounds of villages in Poland (especially in the Prov. of Posen/Poznan) and sold tickets to those who wished to emigrate from Poland. North German Lloyd regularly departed from Bremen. One option was to purchase both the steamship ticket and a RR ticket on the B & O in Europe as part of a package deal. Another option was to purchase the RR ticket upon arrival in Baltimore. As part of the agreement between the two companies the B&O constructed new piers in Locust Point in Baltimore. Those piers directly connected to the B&O terminal. The B&O also constructed special immigrant passenger cars which were larger than the normal passenger cars of the time. The B&O had direct service to many cities and towns of the Midwest. It was common for the medical inspectors and customs agents to board the steamship as it entered the Chesapeake Bay and since it took some time to steam to Baltimore very often all examinations were complete by the time the ship docked. All this made it a very smooth and convenient last leg of the long journey. The immigrants then disembarked at the pier, walked through the pier and the RR terminal and boarded the train to the final destination....No mess...no fuss. The longest possible delay would be to wait for the departure of the proper train.

My maternal great grandparents, together with their four daughters (including my 4 year old grandmother) arrived in Baltimore on April 28, 1888. They took the B&O to South Chicago. The train station was at 87th Street & Baltimore Avenue which was only a four block walk to their destination on the 8500 block of Buffalo Avenue.

Two keys to determining whether any of the same factors were in play for your maternal grandparents would be: 1) Did they sail from Bremen? and 2) Was the ship owned by North German Lloyd? and 3) Did the B&O serve to town to which they traveled either as a direct route or via a connecting line? The attachments show the B&O pier and terminal in Baltimore as well as the main routes of the B&O.

Hope this helps a bit or at least opens up a new possibility.

Wishing you success in figuring out the why and the wherefore,

Dave



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Don



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Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:12 pm      Post subject: Immigration Ports
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Dave,
Thanks for the information. My Father sailed from Bremen on the North German Lloyd liner "Rhein" in 1913. Your post answered my questions also.

Don
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Mary Pate



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Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:11 am      Post subject: Emigration Ports
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Thank you, Dave, for a very informative answer. I'm been into this genealogy for a few years. After a while, your mind wanders to find more. My maternal parents were from the old Poznan Province. However, I have an interesting tidbit to add: Grandparents from Poznan area arrived in Baltimore on the SS Main in 1905. Manifest does not list company of ship. However, paternal grandparents arrived in 1900 through Ellis Island, both sets leaving ouf of port of Bremen. Latter's ship was the SS Lahn, company at top of manifest, Norddeutscher Lloyd.

I had copies of this B&O some time ago when I was tracing their routes from their Polish home to their destination, Leavenworth, Kansas. You confirmed what I had though. I see the B&O comes down from New York, too, going as far as St. Louis. It is possible they went the rest of the way on the Missouri Pacific if it operated then. When I was growing up, a MoPac route went from StL through Kansas City north to Omaha with a stop in Leavenworth.

I have printed this post out for my daughters. Both of them and I are planning a trip to NYC in September to go to Ellis and stand on the land where Castle Garden was, where a gr-grandpa arrived in 1871. He returned to Poland and died there in 1913. Guess it didn't suit him here. Four of his daughers and a son did emigrate out here and stayed. Lots of stories to be told. As a common phrase, just wished I had asked my grandma more questions. I am currently reading a book on Ellis Island, it's history. It also has a section on Castle Garden. Very interesting.

Paternal grandparents came from eastern Galicia. That was a trek to Berlin. I did find a railroad going thru Ternopil that they may have taken.

Thanks again,
Mary
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:52 pm      Post subject:
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Mary,

I didn't intend to imply that all North German Lloyd ships sailed to Baltimore nor that only North German Lloyd ships used the B&O's piers. Some North German Lloyd ships sailed to Baltimore and some to NY and to other ports in North & South America and other steamship lines used the B&O piers. As I remember, the agreement between the two companies guaranteed that NGL would send at least one ship per month to the B&O piers in Locust Point. The B&O certainly has a line from NY to Baltimore and it would seem that it would have been possible to disembark in the Port of NY and purchase a B&O train ticket there but that was beyond the scope of the agreement between the two companies. It does seem safe to conclude that for those like my grandmother and her parents and siblings whose ship first stopped in NY and then continued to Baltimore the immigrants would have chosen Baltimore due to the convenience of the direct connection between ship and rail. My ancestors also sailed on a NGL ship named "Main" but it wasn't the same ship on which your maternal grandparents sailed. Over the years NGL owned three passenger ships called "Main". My ancestors sailed on the 1868 Main and yours most likely sailed on the 1900 Main. The third "Main" was a post WWI ship. The attachment describes the first two Mains but there is an error in the title of the second Main. It should read "1900 Main" rather than "1906 Main". The 1906 Main was a cargo rather than a passenger ship and was not owned by NGL. The other attachment is a picture of the 1900 Main and the third is a picture of the 1868 Main.

The rail route worked best for those immigrants going to the industrial cities of the Northern Midwest and I'm sure that, as you said, your ggparents completed the rail journey on another line but the B&O would have taken care of the greatest part of the rail journey.

I've wondered about the price of passenger tickets in 1888---was there a reduced price based on the age of the children? I've found info on ticket prices but nothing about price reductions for children based on age. On the passenger list the ages of my great grandparents are correct and so is the age of their youngest daughter. However, my grandmother and her two older sisters appear on the manifest as younger than their actual ages. Like you, I never asked my grandmother about her journey to the US despite the fact that growing up we lived in the same house with my maternal grandparents until my grandmother's death in 1971. I don't feel too bad about that since she probably didn't have many memories of that journey and since I doubt that her parents would have explained to a 4 year old why they made the transportation choices which they did make.

Hope you and your daughters have a great trip to Ellis Island.

Dave



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Mary Pate



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Post Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:15 pm      Post subject: Emigration Ports
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Dave, Thank you again for more interesting data and the pictures of two of the SS Main. I printed out a picture of the ones my grandparents sailed on SS Lahn and the SS Main "2") They're in my files "somewhere." Nice to see the Main picture again. I have the ship manifests of both sets of my grandparents on my hall walls. Your mind on this is working like mine. Not only the family line but, to me, it's the socio-economic conditions, etc. around them that make these people come alive. Like you, my mom's mother lived with us. Got a lot of that Polish culture and food that way. Have to make pierogis once a year in lent. Interesting that your gr-grandparents came over on a "Main," too.

I am looking both in Wielkopolska area and eastern Galicia area (dad's side). Surprisingly, I can find relatives much further back, definitely sourced, there in Galicia than up north for German controlled Poles. What I mean is, prior to 1800, I see less and less persons with last names listed in records. I can surmise on some but not proven w/o that surname. Have you run into this? This mainly around the Kcynia area. I did further back down around Juncewo and Cerekwica (Znin) areas. I know, early on, they did not like using the last ones.

Just one more thing, what about land records -- have you gotten into that? Enough for now. Just got back from a run north to local cemetery and up to my hometown. Lots and lots of my relatives buried in that one cemetery. Tomorrow, it's east trip to my husband's folks grave.
Thank you,
Mary
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mbcramer
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:44 pm      Post subject: Re: Immigration Ports
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Don wrote:
Dave,
Thanks for the information. My Father sailed from Bremen on the North German Lloyd liner "Rhein" in 1913. Your post answered my questions also.

Don


Don,
My grandmother and aunt were also on the "Rhein" and arrived at Ellis Island on July 12, 1913. Were our relatives on the same ship or did yours travel at a different time that year?

Marybeth
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skozewski



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Post Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:18 am      Post subject: Finding Baltimore Arrival for Stanislaus Kaminski
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While visiting Milwaukee Historical Society library, I was fortunate to obtain naturalization record for my great grandfather, Stanislaus Kaminski, born in 1863 or '64 in Germany (although another doc. says Prussia) to parents Joseph Kaminski and Valeria Rakowska. Stanislaus immigrated to U.S. arriving in Baltimore in April of 1880 (no knowledge of family coming with). Resided in Milwaukee. Where does one search for ship manifest other than the usual in Ancestry.com for April of 1880?
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:52 am      Post subject: Re: Finding Baltimore Arrival for Stanislaus Kaminski
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skozewski wrote:
While visiting Milwaukee Historical Society library, I was fortunate to obtain naturalization record for my great grandfather, Stanislaus Kaminski, born in 1863 or '64 in Germany (although another doc. says Prussia) to parents Joseph Kaminski and Valeria Rakowska. Stanislaus immigrated to U.S. arriving in Baltimore in April of 1880 (no knowledge of family coming with). Resided in Milwaukee. Where does one search for ship manifest other than the usual in Ancestry.com for April of 1880?


Hi Stephen,
You asked where, other than on Ancestry.com, one can find Baltimore ship manifests. You can see them on Familysearch.org also. The images are the same as those on Ancestry, but they have been indexed by different people and sometimes that is helpful when you are trying to find someone.
I gather that you cannot find the passenger list for Stanislaus Kaminski arriving in April 1880. One of the things that makes it difficult to find him is that there are so many Stanislaus/Stanislaw Kaminski and then it gets even harder because the passenger lists from that time period contain so little information compared with lists from after 1907 or so. Anyway, you may look at many of them and not really be certain which is his. My own experience with naturalization records giving dates and ship names of when someone immigrated is that there is frequently error there as well.
Let me mention one record that I looked at, which you may not have seen. Ancestry has it indexed as "Isanislaus Raminski" and Familysearch has it indexed as "Stanislaus Raminski." It is an arrival of a 10 year old boy on April 23, 1881 in Baltimore, on the ship Strassburg. He is travelling with Josef (age 60) and Antonia (age 65) Raminski. All are from Prussia. Now, one could read the record as Raminski, or one could say it might be Kaminski. The age gap between Stanislaus and the couple Josef and Antonia is such that they might be his grandparents. Since you expect your Stanislaus to be several years older than 10 in 1881, and since you expected his arrival to be in 1881 rather than 1880, you might dismiss this record. I only mention it as an example of how to broaden your search, by allowing for some errors -- what if April is correct but 1880 is not? what if 1880 is correct but April is not? what if the handwriting on the manifest confounded everyone who indexed it? Then you get to test your finds - - do you have evidence that his grandparents names were Josef and Antonia? Can you find Josef and Antonia living in Milwaukee near Joseph and Valeria and their son Stanislaus? Did you find Stanislaus's parents arriving earlier, without their son?
Just some thoughts for you. Hope it helps.
Sophia



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:26 am      Post subject: Re: Finding Baltimore Arrival for Stanislaus Kaminski
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Sophia wrote:
skozewski wrote:
While visiting Milwaukee Historical Society library, I was fortunate to obtain naturalization record for my great grandfather, Stanislaus Kaminski, born in 1863 or '64 in Germany (although another doc. says Prussia) to parents Joseph Kaminski and Valeria Rakowska. Stanislaus immigrated to U.S. arriving in Baltimore in April of 1880 (no knowledge of family coming with). Resided in Milwaukee. Where does one search for ship manifest other than the usual in Ancestry.com for April of 1880?


Hi Stephen,
You asked where, other than on Ancestry.com, one can find Baltimore ship manifests. You can see them on Familysearch.org also. The images are the same as those on Ancestry, but they have been indexed by different people and sometimes that is helpful when you are trying to find someone.
I gather that you cannot find the passenger list for Stanislaus Kaminski arriving in April 1880. One of the things that makes it difficult to find him is that there are so many Stanislaus/Stanislaw Kaminski and then it gets even harder because the passenger lists from that time period contain so little information compared with lists from after 1907 or so. Anyway, you may look at many of them and not really be certain which is his. My own experience with naturalization records giving dates and ship names of when someone immigrated is that there is frequently error there as well.
Let me mention one record that I looked at, which you may not have seen. Ancestry has it indexed as "Isanislaus Raminski" and Familysearch has it indexed as "Stanislaus Raminski." It is an arrival of a 10 year old boy on April 23, 1881 in Baltimore, on the ship Strassburg. He is travelling with Josef (age 60) and Antonia (age 65) Raminski. All are from Prussia. Now, one could read the record as Raminski, or one could say it might be Kaminski. The age gap between Stanislaus and the couple Josef and Antonia is such that they might be his grandparents. Since you expect your Stanislaus to be several years older than 10 in 1881, and since you expected his arrival to be in 1881 rather than 1880, you might dismiss this record. I only mention it as an example of how to broaden your search, by allowing for some errors -- what if April is correct but 1880 is not? what if 1880 is correct but April is not? what if the handwriting on the manifest confounded everyone who indexed it? Then you get to test your finds - - do you have evidence that his grandparents names were Josef and Antonia? Can you find Josef and Antonia living in Milwaukee near Joseph and Valeria and their son Stanislaus? Did you find Stanislaus's parents arriving earlier, without their son?
Just some thoughts for you. Hope it helps.
Sophia


Stephen & Sophia,

There seem to be some serious problems with the initial data as you posted it. Stanislaus/Stanisław was married to Waleria/Valeria Rakowska. They were married in Milwaukee in 1887. His parents were Joseph and Elisa/Elizabeth. There are a ton of records in which they appear which are indexed on Family Search. The attachment shows some of them. Also, someone submitted an ancestor chart for the family on Family Search. The problem seems to be that there are no images of the actual documents and the documents are civil returns, where the spelling and data is usually dubious.

If your main goal in obtaining a passenger list and Stanisław’s citizenship file is to determine where he lived in Europe, as Sophia wrote, there probably will not be much useful info in those documents from that era. I have two suggestions for you. If your ancestors were Roman Catholic, try to obtain a photocopy of their marriage record from the parish marriage register. Most Polish immigrants were married in Polish ethnic parishes were the priests spoke Polish and thus the info and the spellings were more accurate than those entered by civil clerks who did not speak Polish. The marriage register would provide you with some good and reliable hard evidence. The second suggestion is that you contact the person who submitted the ancestor chart to Family Search. Genealogy research works best as a collaborative effort and since whoever submitted the chart must be related to you it would be easier and more fun to do the research as a joint project. There is no sense to try to reinvent the wheel when someone has already invented it.

Wishing you success in your research,

Dave



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skozewski



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:27 am      Post subject: Emmigration - Kaminski
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Wow!! Sophia and Dave..appreciate you're giving me direction. Although I had read some of the challenges in the threads...still didn't realize the complexity and the errors. Stanislaus was born in '63 or '64 in Prussia. If he arrived in 1880 or '81, he was 16 or 17 years old. Assume he came with parents, Joseph and Valeria? They witnessed Stanislaus marriage in '87. If I don't have a place of birth in Prussia, can records be located?
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:40 am      Post subject:
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Stephen, did you read what Dave wrote?
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skozewski



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:04 pm      Post subject: Emmigration
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Sophia, Dave

Yes, the excellent suggestions are to locate parishes in Prussia to obtain documents and to team-up with family to advance development family (my cousin) trees. Can I do that now without a specific Prussia parish in mind? I can see where the ship manifests can have spelling errors - the earlier ones were especially difficult. I also noticed that census only show Poland/Austria, or Poland/Ger) - not the town. Thank you again...

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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:54 pm      Post subject: Re: Emmigration
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skozewski wrote:
Sophia, Dave

Yes, the excellent suggestions are to locate parishes in Prussia to obtain documents and to team-up with family to advance development family (my cousin) trees. Can I do that now without a specific Prussia parish in mind? I can see where the ship manifests can have spelling errors - the earlier ones were especially difficult. I also noticed that census only show Poland/Austria, or Poland/Ger) - not the town. Thank you again...


Hi Stephen,

It is not possible to obtain documents from parishes in what was then Prussia without knowing the name of the village where the parish is located. My suggestion was to gather documents from parishes they attended here in the USA to find clues regarding where your ancestors lived in Europe. Your Kaminski ancestors were Roman Catholics and most likely attended Catholic Polish ethnic parishes in the USA. Often the priests of those parishes included data about where the individual was from in Europe in records of marriages in the US. Those parishes would be the place to start.

To get you started here is some information which should be useful.

STANISLAUS/STANISŁAW KAMINSKI was born in Europe and was a child of JOSEPH/JÓZEF KAMINSKI and ELIZABETH/ELŻBIETA LEMKE/LEMKA.

Some of his siblings were JOHN, ALEXANDER/ALEX, JOSEPH (who had the same name as his father), and ISIDORE. (The names of his siblings come from marriages indexed on Family Search.)

STANISLAUS/STANISŁAW married WALERIA/VALERIA RAKOWSKI in Milwaukee on October 4, 1887. (They had a bunch of children.)

His mother, ELIZABETH LEMKE KAMINSKI, died in Milwaukee in June, 1897 and was buried in Polish Union Cemetery (now known as St. Adalbert Cemetery) on June 16, 1897. The death record index states that she was born in Germany on Nov. 19, 1835 and was married to Joseph Kaminski at the time of her death. (cf. screenshot)

It is most likely that Stanislaus arrived in America with his parents Joseph & Elizabeth and his siblings John, Alex, Joseph (Jr.), & Isidore. Those would be the names to look for on an arrival manifest.

Stanislaus and his brothers John, Alexander, and Isidore all married in Milwaukee. Keep in mind that those marriages would have taken place in the parish of the bride. Since there were quite a few Polish Roman Catholic Churches in Milwaukee (cf. attached list) it would take some work to find the correct parish without knowing exactly where they lived in Milwaukee. However, his brother Joseph (Jr.) married Eva Stiller in St. Adalbert Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan on August 8, 1893. In my opinion that would be the first parish (info attached in two screenshots) to contact. Be sure to request a photocopy of the entry in the marriage register rather than a marriage certificate. If they are unwilling to send a photocopy, request a full transcript of the entry. With a little luck the entry should provide info about where Joseph (Jr.) was born/baptized in Europe and that would be as good a place as any to start looking for other family records.

If you have not used Family Search, I would highly recommend that you give it a try. Search records by location (Wisconsin) for more info about the brothers of Stanislaus.
Here is the link: https://www.familysearch.org/

Happy Thanksgiving.

Dave



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