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FSokolowski



Joined: 28 Mar 2017
Replies: 2

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:14 pm      Post subject: Reaching my Family Tree - stuck in 1799!
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Hello!

I have been researching my family in Poland, pretty much only the paternal line so far, but seem to come up against a bit of a problem and was hoping someone on the forum could give me some advice.

I've been using the genealodzy index website, occasionally ordering records and also having help from a very kind Polish genealogist I know. From this I have traced back to my paternal great-great-great-great grandfather, Marcin Sokołowski, of whom I have a copy of his marriage certificate from 1799, Skierniewice, łódzkie, when he married Katarzyna Szóstakowska. The record is in Latin (e.g. Marcin is written as Martinus).

Unfortunately, according to the genealodzy index, Marcin does not have a birth certificate listed in the index, nor are his parents listed on the marriage certificate. It does say on the marriage certificate that he was a widower, and on the index a Marcin Sokołowski is listed as the father of two children with the mother Franciszka Brylińska. However, the index records for Skierniewice only go back to 1793 for marriages and to 1806 for deaths. As the two children with Franciszka were born in 1791 and 1793, this means that their marriage certificate is lost. So my question is how do I find out who Marcin's parents were if they are not listed on his second marriage certificate when the first is missing and I cannot find his birth certificate? Thank you for considering my problem.

Also, what does Homo Honestus mean? I was told it was the meaning of 'HH' which came before Marcin's name on the marriage certificate. I've heard it means peasant farmer, but I've also heard it was reserved for the wealthier commoners. Or was it just a generic term like 'gentleman' or 'upstanding citizen' are today?

Many thanks,
F. Sokolowski
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:27 am      Post subject: Re: Reaching my Family Tree - stuck in 1799!
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FSokolowski wrote:
Hello!

I have been researching my family in Poland, pretty much only the paternal line so far, but seem to come up against a bit of a problem and was hoping someone on the forum could give me some advice.

I've been using the genealodzy index website, occasionally ordering records and also having help from a very kind Polish genealogist I know. From this I have traced back to my paternal great-great-great-great grandfather, Marcin Sokołowski, of whom I have a copy of his marriage certificate from 1799, Skierniewice, łódzkie, when he married Katarzyna Szóstakowska. The record is in Latin (e.g. Marcin is written as Martinus).

Unfortunately, according to the genealodzy index, Marcin does not have a birth certificate listed in the index, nor are his parents listed on the marriage certificate. It does say on the marriage certificate that he was a widower, and on the index a Marcin Sokołowski is listed as the father of two children with the mother Franciszka Brylińska. However, the index records for Skierniewice only go back to 1793 for marriages and to 1806 for deaths. As the two children with Franciszka were born in 1791 and 1793, this means that their marriage certificate is lost. So my question is how do I find out who Marcin's parents were if they are not listed on his second marriage certificate when the first is missing and I cannot find his birth certificate? Thank you for considering my problem.

Also, what does Homo Honestus mean? I was told it was the meaning of 'HH' which came before Marcin's name on the marriage certificate. I've heard it means peasant farmer, but I've also heard it was reserved for the wealthier commoners. Or was it just a generic term like 'gentleman' or 'upstanding citizen' are today?

Many thanks,
F. Sokolowski


Hi,

Honestus/upright is an adjective usually used to describe a farmer from a town or large village. It is not possible to determine his economic status just from that adjective. Since Skierniewice was a town honestus was used to designate his place of residence.

That records are not indexed on geneteka does not mean that they do not exist. It just means that they are not housed in the archives the indexers visited---in this case the Polish National Archives and, for older records, the archives of the diocese of Łowicz. Often records exist which are not housed in either of those locations. Prior to the Partitions of Poland the state had no official system of keeping what we call vital statistics. Church registers were used as sources of vital stats. After the Partitions the partitioning countries, i.e. Prussia, Russia, and Austria instituted systems for the keeping of civil vital stats. The systems were not the same in all the partitions. However, what occurred in the Russian and the Prussian Partitions was that parishes had to submit either copies of the parish registers or summaries of the entries for a certain number of years prior to the date of the partitions. These are the copies housed in the national and diocesan archives. However, sometimes records going back much father in time were not submitted to the archives and still exist within the parish itself. The original parish in Skierniewice was that of St. James (św. Jakuba). According to the info in the attachment, the parish has records of baptisms from 1600 and of marriages from 1748. A possible avenue for research would be to contact the parish with the caveat that more often than not 18th Century marriage entries (in Latin in the "short paragraph" style) do not name the parents of the bride and of the groom. Based on Marcin's listed age in one record, he was born circa 1761. Perhaps looking for his baptismal record would provide the info regarding his parents you are looking for.

Wishing you success in your quest,

Dave



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FSokolowski



Joined: 28 Mar 2017
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:56 am      Post subject:
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Thanks for your reply!

I did glance at the website for the St. James Parish before, but I was under the impression that all of their records were on geneteka already. Thanks for letting me know otherwise! I'm going to write to them now and hopefully they can supply some more information for me Very Happy And interesting to learn about 'Honestus'. Do you know how I would find out my ancestors' occupations and social statuses if they are not listed on birth or marriage records?

Thanks again for your help,
F. Sokolowski
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:04 pm      Post subject:
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FSokolowski wrote:
Thanks for your reply!

I did glance at the website for the St. James Parish before, but I was under the impression that all of their records were on geneteka already. Thanks for letting me know otherwise! I'm going to write to them now and hopefully they can supply some more information for me Very Happy And interesting to learn about 'Honestus'. Do you know how I would find out my ancestors' occupations and social statuses if they are not listed on birth or marriage records?

Thanks again for your help,
F. Sokolowski


Hi again,

If status is not listed in birth, marriage or death records it would be pretty tough to find that info. Two possibilities which come to mind are: 1) Perhaps that info was entered in the record of a baptism for which they were sponsors aka godparents or in a marriage record in which they served as witnesses; and 2) During the second half of the 19th Century books called Księga ludności detailed the population of gminas in the Russian Partition. They only cover people who lived during that time period and one needs to be lucky in that the books are preserved in one of the archives and that those books have been digitized. The only such register I've found in my personal research is for gmina Chodecz 1864-1915. I've not found those registers for ancestors/relatives who lived in other gminas. Both possibilities are a long shot, but one never knows.

Hoping that writing to the parish pans out for you,

Dave
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clare71275



Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Replies: 4
Location: North central Florida, Gulf Coast

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:21 pm      Post subject: Mchy (German: Emchen) Catholic Church Records Before 1809
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Hello,

I think I have reached the proverbial "brick wall" in searching for my 2nd great-grandfather Martin Lukaszeski alias Suwalski. I've found his second marriage (as a widower) in 1830 to Catharina Joskowna, and all of his children by Catharina on LDS films and on Poznan Project. Martin's first marriage was to Hedwig Szymczak; they had several children beginning with a son Martin born in 1810 (found in LDS film 1201195). There are no records for Martin and Hedwig's marriage, nor any death or marriage records of the younger Martin or his siblings. I have researched LDS films within a 10 mile radius of Mchy, but have found nothing. I've also checked all of the usual Polish sites, but to no avail. Should I just stop looking? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Confused
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mcdonald0517
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Joined: 27 May 2012
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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:55 pm      Post subject:
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This is just a wild thought: have you tried looking in the Evangelical Church records? I have found records for my ancestors in the Catholic Parishes, then lost the trail. But on a lark I decided to look in the Evangelical records, and bingo - found them. I especially suggest this because it seems your ancestors are also from Prussian Poland as mine were. Just thought it might be worth a try if you haven't yet checked it out.

Good luck,
Cynthia
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clare71275



Joined: 29 Nov 2008
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Location: North central Florida, Gulf Coast

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:26 pm      Post subject:
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mcdonald0517 wrote:
This is just a wild thought: have you tried looking in the Evangelical Church records? I have found records for my ancestors in the Catholic Parishes, then lost the trail. But on a lark I decided to look in the Evangelical records, and bingo - found them. I especially suggest this because it seems your ancestors are also from Prussian Poland as mine were. Just thought it might be worth a try if you haven't yet checked it out.

Good luck,
Cynthia
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clare71275



Joined: 29 Nov 2008
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Location: North central Florida, Gulf Coast

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:59 pm      Post subject:
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clare71275 wrote:
mcdonald0517 wrote:
This is just a wild thought: have you tried looking in the Evangelical Church records? I have found records for my ancestors in the Catholic Parishes, then lost the trail. But on a lark I decided to look in the Evangelical records, and bingo - found them. I especially suggest this because it seems your ancestors are also from Prussian Poland as mine were. Just thought it might be worth a try if you haven't yet checked it out.

Good luck,
Cynthia


Thanks, Cynthia:

I was going to try that next. Which site(s) did you check?

Thanks again!
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:06 pm      Post subject:
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I used LDS films. Some of the LDS films are now digitized so you might get lucky. If not, you have to order them.

cynthia
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PabianAus



Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Replies: 80
Location: Australia

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:17 pm      Post subject:
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Another avenue of research might be via the Skierniewice Genealogy Club, who have established a Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/skierniewicki.klubgenealogow?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf
I would expect that many of their members would have hands on experience with accessibility to the older records in the archives of the diocese of Łowicz.

Tom
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