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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:40 am      Post subject: Polish/Russian - Zecman/Setzman Surnames
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Here in the states, both my uncle and my grandfather went by Zecman. On their Hamburg and New York listings, they were Setzmann/Setzman. It was explained to me that Setzmann probably has German origins, which conforms with family lore, but is pronounced Zecman in Polish. I had always assumed that the Zecman name was adopted here in America.

But on recently discovered birth records the surname is shown as Zecman/Setzman.

My question is, what is the most likely actual surname? The records indicate they were all illiterate, so was the spelling left up to the registrar, and put both surname spellings down to cover the possibilities?

I'm running out of "Zecman" records beyond my grandfather, so I'm wondering if I might need to start looking east, toward Germany, for the Setzman name.

Just looking for ideas from those who've been there Smile

Thanks,
Joe

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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:18 am      Post subject:
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I know this sounds strange, but a few days ago I thought I saw a notification on my phone that someone responded to this thread...but am unable to find it now. It was a rather lengthy response to my question, but I have no idea what happened.

To whoever made that reply... my apologies!
Thanks,
Joe

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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:06 am      Post subject:
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Hi Joe,
That was my response you were notified of. I re-read my words later in the day and decided they were not as helpful as I would have wanted them to be, so I deleted them.
I interpret Zecman and Setzmann to be the same surname, the former using Polish spelling rules and the latter using German spelling rules. The sound is practically identical. You might do better using the spelling Zetzmann to look for German records.
Best of luck in your research,
Sophia
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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:17 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Joe,
That was my response you were notified of. I re-read my words later in the day and decided they were not as helpful as I would have wanted them to be, so I deleted them.
I interpret Zecman and Setzmann to be the same surname, the former using Polish spelling rules and the latter using German spelling rules. The sound is practically identical. You might do better using the spelling Zetzmann to look for German records.
Best of luck in your research,
Sophia


LOL.. I thought I was losing it! I can see there are no "rules" to follow on this and I'll just have to keep an open mind on this one. Thank you!!
Joe

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Sophia



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Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:03 am      Post subject:
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Hi again Joe,
Don't worry, you still have all of your marbles!
And you have the fantastic find, in your 1843 marriage record for Jakub Zecman in the Russian translations thread, that his father Andrzej Zecmann was born in Berlin. I would look for Andrzej as Andreas, and try Setzmann and Zetzmann, and somewhat cautiously look at Sitzmann.
Good luck!
Sophia
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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:48 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi again Joe,
Don't worry, you still have all of your marbles!
And you have the fantastic find, in your 1843 marriage record for Jakub Zecman in the Russian translations thread, that his father Andrzej Zecmann was born in Berlin. I would look for Andrzej as Andreas, and try Setzmann and Zetzmann, and somewhat cautiously look at Sitzmann.
Good luck!
Sophia


Thanks for the encouragement, Sophia. I really need it! Smile

As for the Jakub and Andrzej Zecman connection, it's still a working theory that I have not connected the dots directly. Given the relative uniqueness of the name, and the reference made by my great uncle Alexsander that his family migrated from Germany, it's a lead worth pursuing, I think.

It's been an amazing journey for me...after 25 years of slow and mostly fruitless work, 2017 is the year the floodgates have opened up!

Thank you!
Joe

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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:51 pm      Post subject: Zecman -> Setzmann -> Sötzmann
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The 1867 marriage record of my g.grandfather Wojciech Sötzmann to Maryanna Bugolowska throws another variation of the surname into my search mix. In later birth documents for my grandfather and g.uncle, the surname bounces back and forth between Setzmann/Zecman.

In the translation of the 1867 marriage record (the earliest record I've obtained so far) provided by Marcel, information recorded about the groom states:

"Wojciech Sotzman, cooper, born in Włocławek, son of Emilia Sotzman, daylaborer living in Włocławek, 20 years old, according to attached birth record born in Włocławek, living with his mother in Włocławek"

It certainly sounds like the priest was looking at the actual birth record, which should be 1847. I've looked at records +/- 5 years and haven't seen anything close.

Also, in the index listing, the "o" in Sotzmann has the diacritical mark (see the attached) that, to me, looks more German than Polish. Is that correct?

I thought this would be a breeze to find but I am coming up empty handed. Maybe I'm missing something? If anyone has any ideas I would be grateful. I'm looking through https://genealogiawarchiwach.pl/, but perhaps there are other sources available?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Joe



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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:40 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Joe,

I found something, but it may or may not be your ancestor. It is the same year - 1847 - and the same mother - Emelia Sotzmann. But, the name of the child is different: George Gotthard.

I looked through the R.C. records using the link you provided and could not find any birth records for Sotzman, Setzman, or Zecman. However, I followed a hunch that if they were German, you might find the records in the Evangelical Church records for Wloclawek. I looked in those books and found the record attached. You will have to have it translated to see if the mother really is Emelia Sotzmann and to see if her age matches the reference in the marriage record. Perhaps he changed his given name to Wojciech to fit in?

Sorry for yet another possible curve...

Good luck,
Cynthia



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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:45 pm      Post subject:
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I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:22 pm      Post subject:
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mcdonald0517 wrote:
I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia


Hi,

Here is the record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==

https://forum.polishorigins.com/files/1847_29_sotzmann_birth_record_160.jpg
N29
Wloclawek
Dzialo sie w Wloclawku dnia /4/16/ marca 1847, 3 pm. Stawila sie Wilhelmina Ulbrych, akuszerka tu we Wloclawku zamieszkala, lat 63 liczaca, w obecnosci Teodora Ulbrych, rzeznika, lat 27, i Jana Wilhelm, zegarmistrza lat 46 liczacych, tu w Wloclawku zamieszkalych, i okazala nam dziecie plci meskiej, urodzone tu w Wloclawku, dnia /18 lutego/2 marca/ roku biezacego, 4 am, z ojca niewiadomego i Emilii Sotzmann, niezameznej, sluzacej w Wloclawku zamieszkalej, lat 20 liczacej. Dziecieciu temu na chrzcie swietym dzis odbytym nadano imiona Georg Gotthard, a rodzicami jego chrzestnymi byli wspomniony Ulbrych z Amalia Ulbrych. Akt ten spozniony, dla slabosci matki dzieciecia, stawajacym i swiadkom przeczytany, przez Wilhelma podpisany zostal, inni pisac nie umieja.
Signature: Jan Wilhelm, and Pastor (B Tydelski?)
//
It happened in Wloclawek on /4/16/ March 1847, 3 pm. Appeared Wilhelmina Ulbrych, a midwife, residing here in Wloclawek, 63 years old, in the presence of Teodor Ulbrych, butcher, 27-year-old, and Jan Wilhelm, watchmaker, 46 years old, residing here in Wloclawek, and presented us a male child, born here in Wloclawek, on /18 February/2 March/ of the current year, 4am, from the unknown father and Emilia Sotzmann, unmarried, servant residing in Wloclawek, 20 years old. On the holy baptism held today the child was given the names Georg Gotthard, and his godparents were mentioned above Ulbrych and Amalia Ulbrych. This act in late, due to the weakness of the child’s mother, have been read to the present and witnesses, signed by Wilhelm, others do not know how to write.
==
DATE-of-ACT: /4/16/ March 1847, 3 pm, in Wloclawek
DECLARANT: midwife Wilhelmina Ulbrych, residing here in Wloclawek, 63 years old
WITNESSES: Teodor Ulbrych, butcher, 27-year-old, and Jan Wilhelm, watchmaker, 46 years old, residing here in Wloclawek
KTO: Georg Gotthard Sotzmann
DATE-of-BIRTH: in Wloclawek, on /18 February/2 March/ 1847, 4am
FATHER: unknown
MOTHER: Emilia Sotzmann, unmarried, servant residing in Wloclawek, 20 years old
GODPARENTS: Teodor Ulbrych, and Amalia Ulbrych
==
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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:59 pm      Post subject:
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mcdonald0517 wrote:
Hi Joe,

I found something, but it may or may not be your ancestor. It is the same year - 1847 - and the same mother - Emelia Sotzmann. But, the name of the child is different: George Gotthard.

I looked through the R.C. records using the link you provided and could not find any birth records for Sotzman, Setzman, or Zecman. However, I followed a hunch that if they were German, you might find the records in the Evangelical Church records for Wloclawek. I looked in those books and found the record attached. You will have to have it translated to see if the mother really is Emelia Sotzmann and to see if her age matches the reference in the marriage record. Perhaps he changed his given name to Wojciech to fit in?

Sorry for yet another possible curve...

Good luck,
Cynthia


My goodness! I've been busy with family matters and haven't had a chance to reply until now. All I can say is THANK YOU!

I don't know how you did it, but I hope you can show me which repository you accessed the record from so I can try and search back on the Sotzmann name. As you said, there are more curves, but you're discovery has given me great inroads in my search back in time.

Thank you so much!
Joe

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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:09 pm      Post subject:
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Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
mcdonald0517 wrote:
I just looked up Wojciech and it translates to the English "George". So, it looks like the birth record I found is indeed your ancestor!

Cynthia


Hi,

Here is the record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==

==


Elzbieta...THANK YOU for anticipating my translation request! You beat me to it and this new record is an exciting find!

The given name, George Gotthard, certainly sounds German, and Gotthard really sounds like a German surname. I have to wonder if the Gothard isn't the father's surname.

The search is on, and thank you so much for your help!
Best,
Joe

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