Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:35 pm
Post subject: What do these numbers mean on the bottom of the baptism rec?
Hello Polish Origins:
Well, I have been so busy with searching through my ancestors baptism, marriage and death records on microfilm this summer. I have found so much information which I am thankful for. My Dziadek was born in Moszczenica(Galicia) area in 1882. The records are in Latin.
I noticed underneath the parents names are written three different numbers separated by dots in between each number. For example: 76.32.5
DO ANYONE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?
I thought a date month year but thats not it because the numbers are so high. It is very frequent as I get later through the records like in the 1890 and on up.
It is also not a death date because the death are indicated with a cross then a date.
Any ideas would be very appreciated.
Thank you,
Last edited by violin75 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ZenonPolishOrigins Team Leader
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1515
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:52 am
Post subject:
Violin,
Sometimes priest could add small notes/modifications on the record. Can you show us an example on a scan 
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:15 pm
Post subject:
I am sorry this has taken me so longer to post!
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Last edited by violin75 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:16 pm
Post subject:
So for the blurry image, it was taken with my phone 
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 594
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: What do these numbers mean on the bottom of the baptism
| violin75 wrote: |
I noticed underneath the parents names are written three different numbers separated by dots in between each number. For example: 76.32.5 DO ANYONE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS? |
Sometimes there were several people with identical names in a village or town who belonged to the same parish, because some families used the same names over and over for generations, often without middle names. In addition, child mortality was high, and when a child died some families gave the same name to the next child that was born. Perhaps the priest used these numbers to identify an individual already recorded in the church books through birth, baptism, and/or marriage.
Just a thought …
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susan
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Replies: 8
Location: Moore, OklahomaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:47 pm
Post subject: Re: What do these numbers mean on the bottom of the baptism
| violin75 wrote: | Hello Polish Origins:
Well, I have been so busy with searching through my ancestors baptism, marriage and death records on microfilm this summer. I have found so much information which I am thankful for. My Dziadek was born in Moszczenica(Galicia) area in 1882. The records are in Latin.
I noticed underneath the parents names are written three different numbers separated by dots in between each number. For example: 76.32.5
DO ANYONE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?
I thought a date month year but thats not it because the numbers are so high. It is very frequent as I get later through the records like in the 1890 and on up.
It is also not a death date because the death are indicated with a cross then a date.
Any ideas would be very appreciated.
Thank you,
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Perhaps first number indicates father's age, second number indicates mother's age, third number indicates child's number in family household.
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:13 pm
Post subject:
Thanks ladies! These are both very good considerations! Its a very interesting puzzle that I would love to solve because it might giving important details!!!! If the numbers are identifiers to each family that would be great because it would ensure every family to be found. I guess we will just have to see? Maybe I could call the main LDS library? I already asked a volunteer and they didn't know. I wonder if a Priest might know seeming how they recorded it in the books?
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MDuplagaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Replies: 103
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:53 am
Post subject: What do these numbers mean?
Hi, Violin75,
I offer a third possibility for your consideration.
I recently had a conversation with Janice Lipinski of the Polish Genealogical Society of California. Janice had learned on her trips to Poland, that the Parish Libraries, may also contain two additional source Books of information. #1- is a "Family House Number Book". This book will list all the Active Members of the Parish as well as such information as, their support of the parish, their yearly Confession dates and Easter Duty fulfilled dates etc., by family house Number and Surname. This book will also list who is the head of the family, if a child dies, it would list the death date, or the name of an elder who lives at this house number. If the parents die, then it would list the Son or Relative that will then take over that particular house number. It may also mention if the family has emigrated and where.
The Latin name for this book is "Status AniMarum". The Polish name for this book is "Spis Familii".
Janice states that the pages would look similar to a Family Group Sheet.
The #2 additional source that a Parish may still have is a "Banns of Marriage" book that may contain some vital info in addition to the expected Birth, Death & Marriage record books.
Janice said that not all Parishes still have these books on hand for a variety of reasons, one of which is that at some point it may have been decided that they just were not important enough to hold onto any longer or they may have been lost or destroyed over the years.
Janice suggests that anyone contacting a Parish for information, may also request these two books to see IF they do still have them in their Parish.
So, I was thinking that perhaps the numbers on your Baptismal record, may be referring to a book such as one of these, listing the Volume, year and page number where further information may be obtained???
My Best,
MaryAnne
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:08 pm
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MaryAnne:
Good afternoon. Oh my... this sounds so encouraging! Thank you for posting this. I will look into it. I will also show your message to the lady that helps me when I am looking at my microfilms at the LDS library. She is very knowledgeable and I will see if she would know anything further. Hopefully, this all will help someone else too!
Zenon... would you know anything about these addition books?
Many Blessings,
Brandy
Last edited by violin75 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ZenonPolishOrigins Team Leader
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1515
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:50 pm
Post subject:
Brandy, do you have access to the whole births' registry book where the numbers are recorded I haven't come across such recordings before and consulted with my colleagues genealogists. It was also new for them.
We are guessing that the first two numbers are ages of father and mother (as Susan suggested) and the third number is either how long they are married at that time, or kind of reference number to other registry book, or... something completely different.
If you have access to other books from this parish these assumption can be easily verified. If you found birth records of both parents as well as marriage record of them you could calculate the number of years between those events and the births records of their children where the numbers to the mysterious numbers are entered.
| MDuplaga wrote: | I recently had a conversation with Janice Lipinski of the Polish Genealogical Society of California. Janice had learned on her trips to Poland, that the Parish Libraries, may also contain two additional source Books of information. #1- is a "Family House Number Book". This book will list all the Active Members of the Parish as well as such information as, their support of the parish, their yearly Confession dates and Easter Duty fulfilled dates etc., by family house Number and Surname. This book will also list who is the head of the family, if a child dies, it would list the death date, or the name of an elder who lives at this house number. If the parents die, then it would list the Son or Relative that will then take over that particular house number. It may also mention if the family has emigrated and where.
The Latin name for this book is "Status AniMarum". The Polish name for this book is "Spis Familii".
Janice states that the pages would look similar to a Family Group Sheet.
The #2 additional source that a Parish may still have is a "Banns of Marriage" book that may contain some vital info in addition to the expected Birth, Death & Marriage record books.
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Yes these two source may provide a lot of useful information and enrich knowledge about our ancestors life. I would add to this list to more sources which sometimes are kept by priests in parishes:
- Raptularius it was kind of rough copy, draft, where priests recorded events in the moment of reporting them by parishioners. Later, they were rewritten to appropriate books: baptism, marriage or death.
- Alegat (plural Alegata) a document which was an annex (enclosure), a base of issuing the main document. Primary, the term was used in wider meaning, later it was narrowed down to marriage documents. In alegata there are usually abstracts of baptism certificates of spouses, and in the case of widows or widowers there can be also death certificates of late (previous) spouse. It is a chance that you will also find in alegata:
- documents about banns
- death certificates of parents of bride or groom
- notes related to property issues.
It is worth to keep in mind these additional sources while visiting parishes to ask priest about them when we reach "brick wall" because of lack of BMD records or just to enrich our knowledge about our forefathers life.
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susan
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Replies: 8
Location: Moore, OklahomaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: What do these numbers mean on the bottom of the baptism
| susan wrote: | | violin75 wrote: | Hello Polish Origins:
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Perhaps first number indicates father's age, second number indicates mother's age, third number indicates child's number in family household. |
Zenon, I did more research on the 1898 baptism on Casimirus (the last record on this image):
Ludovicus Dygon was born in 1866, therefore number 32 is accurate,
Krystyna Dziuban was born in 1867, but number 21 is inaccurate and should be number 31,
They were married in 1892, therefore number 6 is accurate.
What are your thoughts?
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ZenonPolishOrigins Team Leader
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1515
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:40 am
Post subject:
I would try with a few more examples if I had access to this parish books.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:31 pm
Post subject:
Yes, I have a access to the birth, death and marriage records. I have been looking through them for almost a year now, in hopes of connecting with my family eventually. I would love to then take a trip to Poland and reunite and give everyone in the family and the town of Moszczenica my findings!
So, these number could be helpful with identifying everyone, I am excited about this!
Okay, so do I look for the year of their birth and death dates and then compare them to the numbers?
I will try to go to the library towards the end of the week to look, I cant go soon because my car is in the shop for repairs... still!
I can look through some of the records that I have copies of though, I will try to see what I can find.
Many Blessings,
Brandy
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