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Latin records translations
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:20 pm      Post subject: Re: Death Records
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Mrudnik wrote:


Hi Dave,

Thank you for the clarification of the first record. I have tried to enhance the second and have reattached it. Hopefully this one is better (I have been having the same issue with a lot of the records from Szembruk).

Mike


Hi Mike,

Thanks for posting the enhanced copy. Everything is legible on that version. Again, you got the basic information. Once again, the record makes no mention of where Szymon was born.

Here is the translation and I hope it clarifies matters for you.

Dave

Translation: (Village of) Gubiny: Szymon Pokarski, a tenant, 33 years of age, died on the 23rd day of April (1831) at the hour of 10:00 p.m. of the illness of phlegm/rheum*; he was buried on the 26th of the same (month & year) in Gubiny. The informant (was) Jan Pisarski, father of the surviving wife; (also) survived by his daughter Maryanna, age 4, and son Michał in (his) third year.

Note: *The priest used the Polish word for the cause of death, pitocie/pitoce/pytochie (all various spellings of the same word), which is a rheum or phlegm. This really describes a symptom which could be caused by one of several illnesses. The symptom is congestion, the cause of which is not clear from the data in the record.
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:19 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin Marriage Record Translation
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jlcarras wrote:
Hello,

Can you please translate this marriage record for me? Its from 1833.

Thank you so much!


jlcarras,

There is no Latin to be translated in your post. The record is from Galicia and thus the headings are in Latin and the entries also are usually in Latin but in this case the entries are in Polish and the headings are not included. The entries only consist in the names of the bride and the groom and their parents. Most of the record is cut off and not included in the post. Over the years there were a number of variations in the wording of the headings. I used one of my templates which seems to fit. I am certain of the correctness of all the given names, but the surnames---not so much. The handwriting doesn’t make it easy to read surnames when one does not have a clue as to what they are expected to be. I presume that you know what are the surnames of the bride and groom. I can’t really help you with the maiden names of the mothers.

Wishing you success,

Dave


Col. 1: N(ume)rus Serialis = Number in order (for the year):
Col. 2: Year (at top):
Dies et Mensis: Day and Month (of marriage):
Col. 3: Sponsus = Groom
Col. 3a: N(ume)rus Domus = House Number:
Col. 3b: Ejus ac parentum nomen, cognomen atque conditio; item nativitatis locus = His and his parents’ first & surname and condition/state of life/occupation; at the same time (his) place of birth: Stefan Karysczak(?), son of Jan Karysczak(?) & Anna Karysczakowa nee Cz?????
Col. 3c: Religio = Religion
Col. 3c Subdivision 1: Catholica = Catholic: Checked
Col. 3c Subdivision 2: Aut alia = Or another: Blank
Col. 3d Subdivision 1: Aetas = Age: 18
Col. 3d Subdivision 2: Caelebs = Bachelor: Checked
Col. 3d Subdivision 3: Viduus = Widower: Blank
Col. 4: Sponsa = Bride
Col. 4a: Ejus ac parentum nomen, cognomen atque conditio; item nativitatis locus = Her and her parents’ first & surname and condition/state of life/occupation; at the same time (her) place of birth: Maria Juryłowska(?) (daughter of) Michał Juryłowski & Ewa Juryłowska nee ????
Col. 4b: Numerus Domus = House Number:
Col. 4c: Religio = Religion
Col. 4c Subdivision 1: Catholica = Catholic: Checked
Col. 4c Subdivision 2: Aut alia = Or another: Blank
Col. 4d Subdivision 1: Aetas = Age:
Col. 4d Subdivision 2: Caelebs = Bachelorette:
Col. 4d Subdivision 3: Vidua = Widow:
Col. 5: TESTES Eorum = WITNESSES (and) Their
Col. 5a: Nomen et Cognomen = First and Surname:
Col. 5b: Conditio = Condition/state of life/occupation:
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:22 pm      Post subject: Re: Gottlieb (Bogumil) Radke Birth Certificate
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larodkey wrote:
Hi Dave,

I am trying to find a birth certificate or on my great grandfather Gottlieb/Theophil Radke. You provided a translation for me earlier which showed his marriage record stating he was 24 years old when he got married on October 12 1851 to Roszalia Nowacki in Biala.
I search on one of the website you recommended and was wondering if what is shown on the attached maybe what I was looking for. This name shows up as Bogumil (another name for Gottlieb?) But the year of birth around 1828 sounds about right. Thoughts? Once I look at the scan it looks like a whole new world and cannot decipher anything. Not even sure if I am looking at the right scan?

Thanks in advance

Larry Rodkey (Radke)


Hi Larry,

Bogumił is a Polish version of the Germanic Gottlieb. The various versions of the name all go back to the ancient Greek name θεόψιλος, which is found at the opening of the New Testament Acts of the Apostles. The name is made up of two words, θεος (God) and ψιλος (friend). (Quite a few English words contain the Greek word for friend like philosophy (friend/lover of wisdom) and Philadelphia (friend/lover of brothers), etc.). In the Vulgate (Latin) version of the New Testament the name appears as Theophilus, although another Latin version of the name is Amadeus. Polish has two versions of the name---the more Slavic version, Bogumił, and the somewhat less common version, Teofil (as is found in the translation of the marriage record).

The birth record from Geneteka could possibly be his birth record, but I don’t know that it is very probable. Here is an extract of the important data in that record:
Child: Bogumił, born on Feb. 10, 1828 & baptized on Feb. 18, 1828 in parish of Bierzwienna Długa
Parents: Jakub Radke, a tenant, age 27, & Justyna nee Chartman, age 24

The reason you had difficulty recognizing much in the above record is that you have not yet come across a civil transcript from Russian Poland. Be happy that you were not looking at a civil transcript recorded from 1868 through the end of WWI---those records are in Russian using the Cyrillic alphabet.

Things in favor of this being the birth of your great grandfather: name and age both fit. The age is not exact, off by about a year, but close.
The cons: He was married and lived as an adult in the German Partition aka the Province of Posen and the birth took place in the Russian Partition aka Kingdom of Poland (Krόlestwo Polskie). The distance between the place of birth and the place of marriage is about 250 km (c. 155 miles). The distance alone is not a deal breaker nor is the fact that the two events took place in two different Partitions, but it would make sense to look for a place nearer to where he lived before his marriage and/or where he was married. Keep in mind that many records have not been indexed so far---it is a work in progress. Another thing to consider is that the 19th Century boundaries of the Prov. of Posen do not correspond to the current boundaries of Wojewόdztwo Wielkopolskie. Parts of what is currently Wojewόdztwo Kujawsko-Pomorskie were within the Prov. of Posen (and parts of contemporary Wielkopolskie were in the Kingdom of Poland aka the Russian Partition)in the 19th Century, which means that it makes sense to search in Kujawsko-Pomorskie too---especially since in 1878 Rozalia was living in Wymislowo, which is currently in Wielkopolskie very close to the border with Kujawsko-Pomorskie. Also, a close match of birth year requires supplementary evidence before one can say with certitude: “Yes, this is my ancestor.”
A possible place to look for supplementary data such as the place where Gottlieb was born as well as the names of his parents would be to find his death record. The marriage record of Andrzej & Cecylia states that Gottlieb died in Steinach. The trick is to figure out the parish and/or civil registry office for that village. Hopefully information in his death record will point you in the right direction to look for his birth record. The tough part is that his death does not seem to have been indexed nor is a scan available online.

Back to the name Gottlieb, Teofil, Bogumił…He would have been known by a different version of his given name depending on the source of the record in which he appears. In civil records from the Prov. of Posen his name would be recorded as Gottlieb, in Polish language documents his name would have appeared as either Bogumił or Teofil, and in Latin Catholic Church records his given name would have appeared as either Theophilus or Bogomilus. The trick is to know what his family, friends, and neighbors called him---tough to know. The one certainty is that in his daily life he was not known as either Bogomilus or as Theophilus.

Attached is a map of the counties of the Prov. of Posen in the late 19th Century.

This has been a long answer to a simple question but I hope that it helps rather than confuses.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Dave



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Mrudnik



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Post Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:56 am      Post subject: Re: Death Records
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dnowicki wrote:




Hi Mike,

Thanks for posting the enhanced copy. Everything is legible on that version. Again, you got the basic information. Once again, the record makes no mention of where Szymon was born.

Here is the translation and I hope it clarifies matters for you.

Dave

Translation: (Village of) Gubiny: Szymon Pokarski, a tenant, 33 years of age, died on the 23rd day of April (1831) at the hour of 10:00 p.m. of the illness of phlegm/rheum*; he was buried on the 26th of the same (month & year) in Gubiny. The informant (was) Jan Pisarski, father of the surviving wife; (also) survived by his daughter Maryanna, age 4, and son Michał in (his) third year.

Note: *The priest used the Polish word for the cause of death, pitocie/pitoce/pytochie (all various spellings of the same word), which is a rheum or phlegm. This really describes a symptom which could be caused by one of several illnesses. The symptom is congestion, the cause of which is not clear from the data in the record.


That is helpful as always.

Thank You Dave.
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larodkey



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Post Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:47 am      Post subject: Gottlieb Radke Death Cert
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Dave,

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. You have been a great help in my research. I will work on the insight you have gave me.

Larry

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:07 pm      Post subject:
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Hello,

This is the baptism of my great uncle Francis (probably called Franciszek by family) Michalkiewicz. It is spelled Michaeliwicz in the ledger, but given the small parish and the correct parents Jozef and Weronika Szymkiewicz this is surely my late great uncle born the 2nd of October in Versailles, CT died 7 days later on the 9th.

I am trying to determine who the godparents and the priest are, and if possible what you make of the whole text.

Thanks,

Hugh



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mhofmann



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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:18 am      Post subject: Re: translation request
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Dave,

I apologize for the delay in my response to your messages; I was traveling and unable to give them the attention they deserve. Kindest thanks for the translations themselves which are key pieces of my genealogical search and have confirmed Mateusz Prusinowski as my 4th great-grandfather! I appreciate so much your extra notes on the nuances of some of the terms used, especially your very interesting and informative thoughts on Piotr's occupation. I watched both videos and it really gave me a much better understanding of his craft. As well, I thank you for the dictionary references which are resources previously unknown to me. And your notes on the Latin language will serve me well as I perhaps try my hand at deciphering some records in the future. I was a French major, also took Spanish, and after working with so many Polish & Russian records over the last couple of years, have developed a working knowledge of garnering at least the basic facts from a record. But my Latin "training" is limited to church songs and phrases I remember from when I was young and the Catholic Mass was in Latin. So I am very grateful to you for sharing your expertise and vast "beyond the basic facts" knowledge.

A couple of questions (when time permits!) on the death record of Mateusz: Is it reasonable to assume that his four wives are listed in order from first to fourth? I know that he married Agnieszka Z. in 1788, but that is the only marriage record I could find. Presumably the other marriages took place in a different parish, i.e., wherever the bride was from, or, for the first two wives, maybe the records don't go back that far. My other question is why he has two daughters named Maryanna. Would the first Maryanna possibly be deceased? I was under the impression that only surviving children were customarily listed, but I'm not sure why I think that. I suppose another possibility is that it is simply a "typo" on the part of the recorder.

Finally, one question on Piotr & Cecylia's 1794 marriage record translation which you posted on August 3: could Piotr's parish be Ciemniewo? The 1788 marriage record for Mateusz & Agnieszka was there, as were marriage records for an Andrzej Prusinowski (1797) and a Maryanna Prusinowska (1799). When a record says the groom is "of the parish of X" does that normally mean he was born there or that he was living there at the time of the marriage?

Thank you again for all three translations and for going above and beyond in so many ways!

Mary

dnowicki wrote:
mhofmann wrote:
May I please have a translation of these three records? Many thanks!


Hi Mary,

Thanks for posting the column headings. As it turns out, the columns don’t really contain any information which is not known from the body of the entry. The first column gives the place of residence of the deceased. The next three columns are designed to checkoff basic data. The first of the three indicates that the death recorded was of a male. The next two columns are indicated as blank. (The second column is for deaths of females.)

It is good to know that Piotr’s occupation in later records is “stolarz” because that does indeed confirm what I wrote about the meaning of mensifaber. Stolarz can mean “cabinet maker” as well as the more basic contemporary meanings of the word which are joiner/carpenter. A joiner is a specialized highly skilled carpenter as opposed to a framing carpenter whose work is of a more general nature. It is often very helpful when considering 18th & 19th Century occupations in Polish to consult the two earliest and most comprehensive dictionaries of the Polish language---that of Samuel Bogumił Linde (1807-14) and the Słownik Warszawski(1900-27) as both those dictionaries define occupational words the way they were used prior to 1900. There we find stolarz defined as “rzemieślnik robiący z drzewa sprzęty, meble…” (“a craftsman making from wood implements, utensils, furniture...”). These are all tasks done by cabinetmakers, a distinct type of joiner. The work of a stolarz requires precision in the crafting and assembly of the wooden product. It seems to me that by simply defining the craftsman as a cabinetmaker the image which comes to mind in our times is of someone who makes cabinets which are more like the kitchen cabinets sold at the big box stores instead of handcrafted cabinets which are considered furniture. Hence my preference for furniture maker rather than cabinetmaker. Two places where it is possible to see the tools and techniques of joinery and of cabinet making as it was done in the 18th & 19th Centuries are episodes of the PBS series “The Woodwright’s Shop” with Roy Underhill and the furniture shop at Colonial Williamsburg. Here is a link to a youtube video of the Williamsburg site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuBc9KDgTag and here is a link to a shorter video: http://www.finewoodworking.com/2007/02/22/touring-the-colonial-williamsburg-shop Of course, the location is not Poland and the time is not identical but the tools and techniques would be very similar to those used by craftsmen in Poland. All this is far removed from the Latin text so perhaps a few words regarding how one goes about determining the meaning of Latin words which are not found in a dictionary might be helpful.
Latin ceased to be the vernacular of any national group by the third quarter of the first millennium but it survived as the language of scholarship, diplomacy, the Catholic Church, etc. New words were regularly being added and some of those words were used only in one geographical location. Thus, there is no one exhaustive lexicon of Post-Classical Latin. There are, however, several ways to form a rather accurate guess of the meaning of unknown words. One method is to determine the meaning through context in various examples of text where the word occurs---not a method which would work in this instance. Another method is to separate the word into its parts---the method used in these entries. The word is made up of two parts---mensi and faber. Faber is the easy part since it occurs frequently in Latin records. The basic meaning of faber is “maker”. Think of the English word “fabricate” which is derived from faber. To fabricate something is to make that thing and hence one who fabricates is a maker. The other part of the word is related to “mensa” which means a table and was used to designate the top part of an altar. A table or an altar is a piece of furniture and hence the educated guess that a mensifaber was a table maker or in more general terms…a furniture maker.

Anyway, here is the translation.

1806 Death Mateusz Prusinowski

Left Column: (Village of) Łebki Wielkie
Next 3 Columns: Col.1: Male: Checked; Next 2 Columns: Blank
Body of Entry: In the same year on the 9th day of the month of March at the hour of 10 at night the upright* Mateusz Prusinowski died, the husband of 4 wives, namely the upright* Franciszka Mikołajowna**, Maryanna Dęba, Noble Agnieszka Zebrowska, and Noble Maryanna Damipecka(?), who still lives; the father of two married sons, namely Andrzej, 45 years of age, and Piotr, a furniture/cabinet maker***, about 42 years of age; and 3 daughters, that is, Maryanna, Apolonia, and Maryanna, a maiden; 82 years of age; death due to the illness of old age; strengthened by the Sacraments of those about to die****; buried in the cemetery.

Notes: * cf. previous translation note
**the suffix -owna signifies “daughter of…” in this case---“daughter of Mikołaj”
*** cf. previous translation note
**** cf. previous translation note

Hope you find all this helpful and interesting.

Dave
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:30 am      Post subject: Re: translation request
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mhofmann wrote:
Dave,

I apologize for the delay in my response to your messages; I was traveling and unable to give them the attention they deserve. Kindest thanks for the translations themselves which are key pieces of my genealogical search and have confirmed Mateusz Prusinowski as my 4th great-grandfather! I appreciate so much your extra notes on the nuances of some of the terms used, especially your very interesting and informative thoughts on Piotr's occupation. I watched both videos and it really gave me a much better understanding of his craft. As well, I thank you for the dictionary references which are resources previously unknown to me. And your notes on the Latin language will serve me well as I perhaps try my hand at deciphering some records in the future. I was a French major, also took Spanish, and after working with so many Polish & Russian records over the last couple of years, have developed a working knowledge of garnering at least the basic facts from a record. But my Latin "training" is limited to church songs and phrases I remember from when I was young and the Catholic Mass was in Latin. So I am very grateful to you for sharing your expertise and vast "beyond the basic facts" knowledge.

A couple of questions (when time permits!) on the death record of Mateusz: Is it reasonable to assume that his four wives are listed in order from first to fourth? I know that he married Agnieszka Z. in 1788, but that is the only marriage record I could find. Presumably the other marriages took place in a different parish, i.e., wherever the bride was from, or, for the first two wives, maybe the records don't go back that far. My other question is why he has two daughters named Maryanna. Would the first Maryanna possibly be deceased? I was under the impression that only surviving children were customarily listed, but I'm not sure why I think that. I suppose another possibility is that it is simply a "typo" on the part of the recorder.

Finally, one question on Piotr & Cecylia's 1794 marriage record translation which you posted on August 3: could Piotr's parish be Ciemniewo? The 1788 marriage record for Mateusz & Agnieszka was there, as were marriage records for an Andrzej Prusinowski (1797) and a Maryanna Prusinowska (1799). When a record says the groom is "of the parish of X" does that normally mean he was born there or that he was living there at the time of the marriage?

Thank you again for all three translations and for going above and beyond in so many ways!

Mary


Hi Mary,

I believe that it would be safe to assume that the four wives are listed according to the order of the marriages. That would be the usual format. Sometimes the priest would add the words “primo voto, secundo voto, etc. (literally: from the first vow, second vow, etc.) so there could be no doubt as to the order. With four wives the sequence would be: primo voto, secundo voto, tertio voto, and quarto voto. Perhaps the priest just decided to skip all the extra words since the entry was already fairly long for that type of record.

Since marriages were supposed to take place in the parish of the bride, it is possible that the weddings for which you’ve not located records took place in another parish. Again, as you say, perhaps the earlier records are no longer extant. Based on my personal research, it appears to me that many families in the 17th and 18th Centuries resided in the same parish for generations, but often young men married women from neighboring parishes. Perhaps they just knew instinctively that it was a good idea to increase the gene pool.

Regarding the two Maryannas…You are correct that only living children are listed in death records. The records are not like obituaries which list both surviving children and those who preceded the parent in death. Your suggestion that the first Maryanna died is possible but not very likely given that only living children are listed in death records. Your second suggestion that one Maryanna is a scribal error is also possible. Two Latin names which can be confused and incorrectly entered if the scribe is not careful are Marianna and Martianna (Matine in English or in Polish Marcjanna). It would certainly not be unheard of for the “t” to have been accidentally omitted. However, there is also another possibility…If the two girls had different mothers it is possible that each mother wanted to name her daughter Maryanna --- probably hands down the most common girls’ name in Poland at that time. Reusing names with children of a second (or third or fourth) is a real possibility. One of my maternal 3rd great-grandfathers, Jakub, was born in 1780 and married his first wife in 1806. Together they had 12 children, most of whom survived to adulthood. His first wife, Barbara Banicka, died in 1843. In 1845 he married a 28 year old woman and had two sons with her. (That is why he is fondly referred to as “The Stud”.) They were named Jan and Michał. However, he had two sons with Barbara who were also named Jan & Michał and were alive when the second set of boys were born. (Barbara’s son Michał is my 2nd great-grandfather.) In 1852 Jakub died, his widow remarried and left the parish so I don’t know what happened to the second set of boys. Strange things happen and unfortunately it is not possible to ask anyone about the whys and the wherefores.

Piotr’s parish is definitely Ciemniewo. Knowing that name clarifies the handwriting. The Latin for the parish is now clearly reads “Ciemnieviensem” which is the Latin form of Ciemniewo with the proper ending as required by the grammar of the sentence. Latin records usually enter village names in the vernacular. However, Latin usually treats the name of a parish as a Third Declension adjective. (The adjective is modifying a noun like “parish”, “parishioner”, etc.) The vernacular form drops the final vowel and adds the Latin ending “iensis” in whatever Cases are necessitated by Latin Grammar. Since Latin had no letter “w” the letter “v” replaces the Polish “w”. Thus Ciemniewo becomes Ciemnieviensis.

When a marriage record states that a groom was from parish X it means that he was residing there at the time of (or just prior to) the wedding. Of course it is always possible that he was also born there but the only conclusion which can be drawn with certitude, unless a place of birth is specifically noted, is that he was living there at the time of the marriage.

It is interesting that you majored in French and also took Spanish. Did you teach? Or did you find another way to use those languages for fun and profit?

Since both French and Spanish are direct descendants of Latin your knowledge of those languages should be useful when you read Latin records. One caveat --- Latin nouns and adjectives are inflected whereas French and Spanish nouns and adjectives do not have case endings like Latin. Latin sacramental records are really quite simple in terms of grammar and vocabulary and generally don’t involve the more complex syntax of Classical Latin. If you would like a good Latin reference grammar I would recommend Charles E. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar (1898; 1908; 1918). Although it first appeared over a century ago, it is still an excellent grammar. Even better, it can be downloaded to Kindle (and possibly to a PC) gratis. I would also be happy to share suggestions for other resources, if you would be interested.

I taught Latin in my younger days. (It was the best available option after studying it as an undergrad and in grad school since I couldn’t find any dead Romans with whom I could converse and there was no demand for Latin speakers.) As things turned out, I also taught Spanish for Native Speakers and Polish grammar and Modern Polish Literature. My scholarly background in Spanish can be summed up as: “Aprendí el Español en la famosa universidad de la calle.” (Even though I did get 21 hrs. credit in Spanish and 21 hours in Polish by taking exams at good old Loyola so I did qualify to teach those languages in secondary school.) I actually learned the languages by hanging out with my Mexican friends (and their parents) and by living in the same house with my maternal grandparents who did use Polish at home and growing up in a Polish parish.

The cabinet making stuff is another interest of mine. After teaching I did cabinet/furniture making for both profit and for pleasure using some of the same kinds of joints as those depicted in the videos. The difference is that I used modern power tools as much as possible in combination with some of the older techniques.

These days I spend a lot of time in season growing fruits and vegetables. I guess genes inherited from hundreds of years of Polish farmers remain durable. Maybe someday I’ll figure out what I want to do when I grow up.

Anyway, I hope the answers help. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

Wishing you enjoyment and success in your research,

Dave
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:15 pm      Post subject: Latin translation please
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I have run into another record with some non-normal events. A marriage in Bavaria mentioning something in London, England. Did the marriage occur there and just being recorded back home? Plus some consanguinity of the 3rd degree problems requiring permission.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm      Post subject: Latin words
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Dave,

Your help in deciphering the handwriting and translating a just a couple of words and phrases in the red boxes would be most helpful. In the first red box the description of the groom as "visilatum Słtysiak" is confusing. Is Adalbert Dzik known as the Sołtys or mayor? What do the words mean? In the second example, the marginal notation in the box looks like "Detritus jumiole" or something that I cannot figure out.

Marilyn



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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:34 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin translation please
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BobJan wrote:
I have run into another record with some non-normal events. A marriage in Bavaria mentioning something in London, England. Did the marriage occur there and just being recorded back home? Plus some consanguinity of the 3rd degree problems requiring permission.



Bob,

The couple were married in London England but they were parishioners of the parish in Massweiler and the pastor there requested dispensations from consnguinity and from the banns from the bishop of the diocese of L???(can’t read the rest of the name but it is short) in Bavaria. The place name is treated as an adjective in Latin with the ending -ensi. Drop the -ensi and you should be left with the place name. So the priest in Massweiler is mainly recording the dispensations obtained but also includes the date and place where the marriage took place. As a side note, the priest should have used Londinium for London since that was the Latin place name since the founding of the settlement by the Romans after the invasion of Britain by Claudius in 43 A. D. Evidently the priest had either not read Tacitus or had forgotten the place name as recorded by Tacitus.

There are two lines of consanguinity, the direct line and the collateral line. Marriages are prohibited in the direct line and no dispensations can be given since the prohibition is considered a matter of divine/natural law. Marriages in the collateral line to the fourth degree are not allowed without a dispensation. Dispensations can be granted because the prohibition in the collateral line is considered human/church law, not divine/natural law.
Here is a link to an explanation by a Catholic Canon lawyer:
http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/09/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church/

Anyway, here is the translation:
In the Year of Our Lord 1892 on the 3rd day of the month of September I, Andrew Kuntz, for the present time pastor in Massweiler, received a dispensation from the Reverend Bishop of L???, Joseph Gregory, from the impediment of consanguinity in the third degree of the collateral line and a dispensation from the three proclamations of the banns for my parishioners from Massweiler, Adam Schwartz, the unmarried legitimate son of the Catholic marriage of Jacob Shwartz and Catherine nee ​?ermann (first letter is cut off due to tight binding) and Elizabeth Glahn, the unmarried legitimate daughter of Peter Glahn, a Catholic, and his wife Barbara (nee) Küther, a Catholic, since in London in England they would be joined in marriage by some Roman Catholic priest. There they were joined (in marriage) in the Church of St. Boniface by Joseph Verres on the 9th day of September (in the presence of) the witnesses M. Decker(?) and C. Bohl.
Thus I do attest.
(signature) A. Kuntz, pastor

Hope this clarifies the record.

Dave
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BobJan
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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:06 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin translation please
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dnowicki wrote:
BobJan wrote:
I have run into another record with some non-normal events. A marriage in Bavaria mentioning something in London, England. Did the marriage occur there and just being recorded back home? Plus some consanguinity of the 3rd degree problems requiring permission.



Bob,

The couple were married in London England but they were parishioners of the parish in Massweiler and the pastor there requested dispensations from consnguinity and from the banns from the bishop of the diocese of L???(can’t read the rest of the name but it is short) in Bavaria. The place name is treated as an adjective in Latin with the ending -ensi. Drop the -ensi and you should be left with the place name. So the priest in Massweiler is mainly recording the dispensations obtained but also includes the date and place where the marriage took place. As a side note, the priest should have used Londinium for London since that was the Latin place name since the founding of the settlement by the Romans after the invasion of Britain by Claudius in 43 A. D. Evidently the priest had either not read Tacitus or had forgotten the place name as recorded by Tacitus.

There are two lines of consanguinity, the direct line and the collateral line. Marriages are prohibited in the direct line and no dispensations can be given since the prohibition is considered a matter of divine/natural law. Marriages in the collateral line to the fourth degree are not allowed without a dispensation. Dispensations can be granted because the prohibition in the collateral line is considered human/church law, not divine/natural law.
Here is a link to an explanation by a Catholic Canon lawyer:
http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/09/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church/

Anyway, here is the translation:
In the Year of Our Lord 1892 on the 3rd day of the month of September I, Andrew Kuntz, for the present time pastor in Massweiler, received a dispensation from the Reverend Bishop of L???, Joseph Gregory, from the impediment of consanguinity in the third degree of the collateral line and a dispensation from the three proclamations of the banns for my parishioners from Massweiler, Adam Schwartz, the unmarried legitimate son of the Catholic marriage of Jacob Shwartz and Catherine nee ​?ermann (first letter is cut off due to tight binding) and Elizabeth Glahn, the unmarried legitimate daughter of Peter Glahn, a Catholic, and his wife Barbara (nee) Küther, a Catholic, since in London in England they would be joined in marriage by some Roman Catholic priest. There they were joined (in marriage) in the Church of St. Boniface by Joseph Verres on the 9th day of September (in the presence of) the witnesses M. Decker(?) and C. Bohl.
Thus I do attest.
(signature) A. Kuntz, pastor

Hope this clarifies the record.

Dave


Wow! that is major new valuable information and very interesting. Your explanation is very helpful, thank you. I think the town of the Bishop is Speyer; you can see the same "S" earlier in "September". This was in Bavaria then, 53 miles from Maßweiler I found this on the wikipedia page for the cathedral "patron saint of Speyer ("Patrona Spirensis)". Also on wikipedia "Bishop of Speyer" it has Joseph Georg von Ehrler as bishop in 1892. So this is pretty good confirming evidence. None of which I would have ever figured out on my own.
So it seems that the parish priest received these requests on 3 Sept. from the Speyer bishop and then the marriage occurred in London on the 9th. That was pretty fast communication for those days.
This man's brother married a woman with the same name as their mother, Catherine Germann. That record has a lot of the same wording but not in London so I should be able to figure it out now
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:40 pm      Post subject:
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I was wondering if someone could help me with this Latin Record. I was able to make out that it is the marriage of Carl Stenke (Stoke) and Florentine Busse. I'm also curious what is written in the other columns. Carl's parents are listed as Johann Stenke and Rosina Glander. Rosina is actually Carl's stepmother. I wondered if there was anything written about his mother?

Thanks



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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:49 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin translation please
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BobJan wrote:




Wow! that is major new valuable information and very interesting. Your explanation is very helpful, thank you. I think the town of the Bishop is Speyer; you can see the same "S" earlier in "September". This was in Bavaria then, 53 miles from Maßweiler I found this on the wikipedia page for the cathedral "patron saint of Speyer ("Patrona Spirensis)". Also on wikipedia "Bishop of Speyer" it has Joseph Georg von Ehrler as bishop in 1892. So this is pretty good confirming evidence. None of which I would have ever figured out on my own.
So it seems that the parish priest received these requests on 3 Sept. from the Speyer bishop and then the marriage occurred in London on the 9th. That was pretty fast communication for those days.
This man's brother married a woman with the same name as their mother, Catherine Germann. That record has a lot of the same wording but not in London so I should be able to figure it out now[/quote]

Bob,

That is a very good reading of the name of the diocese which really nails down the name.

The communication was quick. Perhaps the document granting the dispensation was hand delivered by either the bride or the groom or some relative who went to London for the wedding.

Dave
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:58 am      Post subject: Re: Latin words
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mestanton wrote:
Dave,

Your help in deciphering the handwriting and translating a just a couple of words and phrases in the red boxes would be most helpful. In the first red box the description of the groom as "visilatum Słtysiak" is confusing. Is Adalbert Dzik known as the Sołtys or mayor? What do the words mean? In the second example, the marginal notation in the box looks like "Detritus jumiole" or something that I cannot figure out.

Marilyn


Marilyn,

The text in the red box of the marriage record reads Dzik vicilatum S(o)łtysiak and is translated “Dzik alternately S(o)łtysiak”. It is just another example of the fluidity of surnames --- especially among peasants --- during the first quarter of the 19th Century. Sometimes individuals were known by more than one surname. Wojciech most probably did not hold the office of sołtys since the Polish (Civil) version of the marriage record states that he was a parobek (farmhand) and was therefore a landless peasant. Perhaps his father had held that office and he adopted that surname to distinguish himself from other Dziks living in the parish at that time.

Here is the link to the Civil copy:
https://genealogiawarchiwach.pl/#query.facetQuery.date=1811&query.city=Bronis%25C5%2582aw&query.suggestion=false&query.thumbnails=false&query.facet=true&

The first page of the image is attached. The second page only contains the usual concluding formula so I didn’t bother attaching it.

The red box for the death record reads “districtus Juniolensis or Jurniolensis” or some other spelling of the place name. It translates as “district of (place name).” The full place name reads "Papros, District of..." In Latin records districtus usually is used for the Polish powiat, but not always. The same phrase appears in the following entry (and most likely in all the entries for that year). The record is from 1816 which was a year of transition after the Duchy of Warsaw (Księstwo Warszawskie) had ended and the area where Bronisław is located was transferred to Russian control as part of the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) following the Congress of Vienna. I’ve not been able to determine the place location on maps of the area, but, on the other hand, I don’t believe that the information is crucial.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.

Dave



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