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djablonka



Joined: 22 Jun 2018
Replies: 30
Location: West Chester, Ohio

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:29 pm      Post subject: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwolińskiego
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I have been working with the Archives in Wloclawku to get the birth records for my ancestors. Recently, I received the marriage record of Marcina Zwolińskiego and it lists his home town as Chodczu. When I asked the Archives why they were unable to provide his birth record, the said: "The State Archives in Toruń, the branch in Włocławek, informs that it is possible that you will not find the birth certificate of Marcin Zwoliński, since the mistaken place of birth is given in the act of marriage."

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to proceed to find the birth record?

Thanks in advance for your help. I am attaching the marriage record if you want to view it. I already have the translation of it so I am good there. I just want to develop a plan of action to get the birth record.



Akt małżeńśtwa Marcin Zwoliński i Jadwiga Grzegorzewska 1852 r. (3).jpg
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Akt małżeńśtwa Marcin Zwoliński i Jadwiga Grzegorzewska 1852 r. (3).jpg



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Dave Jablonka
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Magroski49
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Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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Location: Joao Pessoa - Brazil

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:08 am      Post subject: Re: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwoliński
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djablonka wrote:
I have been working with the Archives in Wloclawku to get the birth records for my ancestors. Recently, I received the marriage record of Marcina Zwolińskiego and it lists his home town as Chodczu. When I asked the Archives why they were unable to provide his birth record, the said: "The State Archives in Toruń, the branch in Włocławek, informs that it is possible that you will not find the birth certificate of Marcin Zwoliński, since the mistaken place of birth is given in the act of marriage."

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to proceed to find the birth record?

Thanks in advance for your help. I am attaching the marriage record if you want to view it. I already have the translation of it so I am good there. I just want to develop a plan of action to get the birth record.


Hi,
I.M.H.O it is
Chodecz
woj. kujawsko-pomorskie
pow. włocławski
gmina Chodecz (siedziba)
1920 osób
kod: 87-860

However, the place is indexed and there is no birth record for a Marcin:
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=1223&search_lastname=zwolinski&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

There is a Marcin born in 1824 in Kowal but his parents' names are not Kazimierz and Franciszka:
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=B&search_lastname=zwolinski&search_name=marcin&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Gilberto
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djablonka



Joined: 22 Jun 2018
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Location: West Chester, Ohio

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:43 am      Post subject: Re: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwoliński
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Magroski49 wrote:
djablonka wrote:
I have been working with the Archives in Wloclawku to get the birth records for my ancestors. Recently, I received the marriage record of Marcina Zwolińskiego and it lists his home town as Chodczu. When I asked the Archives why they were unable to provide his birth record, the said: "The State Archives in Toruń, the branch in Włocławek, informs that it is possible that you will not find the birth certificate of Marcin Zwoliński, since the mistaken place of birth is given in the act of marriage."

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to proceed to find the birth record?

Thanks in advance for your help. I am attaching the marriage record if you want to view it. I already have the translation of it so I am good there. I just want to develop a plan of action to get the birth record.


Hi,
I.M.H.O it is
Chodecz
woj. kujawsko-pomorskie
pow. włocławski
gmina Chodecz (siedziba)
1920 osób
kod: 87-860

However, the place is indexed and there is no birth record for a Marcin:
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=1223&search_lastname=zwolinski&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

There is a Marcin born in 1824 in Kowal but his parents' names are not Kazimierz and Franciszka:
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=B&w=02kp&rid=B&search_lastname=zwolinski&search_name=marcin&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Gilberto


Gilberto,
Thank you for your help. Do you think that it is possible that the record may not be cataloged, but may be able to be picked up at Chodecz in person? Or do you think that it may be lost altogether? I don't have experience with records from Poland. Thanks again for your help, Dave Jablonka

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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm      Post subject: Re: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwoliński
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[/quote]

Gilberto,
Thank you for your help. Do you think that it is possible that the record may not be cataloged, but may be able to be picked up at Chodecz in person? Or do you think that it may be lost altogether? I don't have experience with records from Poland. Thanks again for your help, Dave Jablonka[/quote]

Dave,

First of all, I would suggest you to have this record viewed by a volunteer who is very familiar with the polish grammar. He or she could tell if "Chodeczu' is the declensioned form for Chodecz, or not. On the other hand, if it is, I assume the AP in Wloclawek would know that, so their reply wouldn't make sense.

Records for Chodecz are indexed (for the frame of time Marcin was born). In my opinion, if it is not indexed then it is not in the books of Chodecz.

I remember that you have been searching for a place named Kowal and in my previous post I mentioned a Marcin born in Kowal. His birth year was quite close to that Marcin stated on his marriage record. Just guessing: what if Marcin is that son of Kazimierz and Franciszka but was raised (adoption?) by the other couple?

Another venue, and I already tried it, was to look for Kazimierz Zwolinski and Franciszka Niewadomski marriage record, but I was no luck in finding it.

Gilberto
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:58 pm      Post subject: Re: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwoliński
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Magroski49 wrote:


Gilberto,
Thank you for your help. Do you think that it is possible that the record may not be cataloged, but may be able to be picked up at Chodecz in person? Or do you think that it may be lost altogether? I don't have experience with records from Poland. Thanks again for your help, Dave Jablonka[/quote]

Dave,

First of all, I would suggest you to have this record viewed by a volunteer who is very familiar with the polish grammar. He or she could tell if "Chodeczu' is the declensioned form for Chodecz, or not. On the other hand, if it is, I assume the AP in Wloclawek would know that, so their reply wouldn't make sense.

Records for Chodecz are indexed (for the frame of time Marcin was born). In my opinion, if it is not indexed then it is not in the books of Chodecz.

I remember that you have been searching for a place named Kowal and in my previous post I mentioned a Marcin born in Kowal. His birth year was quite close to that Marcin stated on his marriage record. Just guessing: what if Marcin is that son of Kazimierz and Franciszka but was raised (adoption?) by the other couple?

Another venue, and I already tried it, was to look for Kazimierz Zwolinski and Franciszka Niewadomski marriage record, but I was no luck in finding it.

Gilberto[/quote]

Dave & Gilberto,

First of all, Chodzcu is the Locative (miejscownik) Singular of Chodecz. It is the form which is used following the preposition "w" ("in"). The response from the archive makes sense in that Chodecz is given as the place of birth and the record was not found in that parish.

There is another possible way to make sure that his birth was not recorded in Chodecz. There are internal indexes within each year’s records. They usually follow each section---births, marriages, & deaths. Checking the indexes could give peace of mind that there is no civil transcript indexed for his birth. If he does not appear in the birth index within the civil register one could go through the entries for the year to make sure that the scribe did not inadvertently omit his name from the index. As the ancient Romans used to say: "Errare humanum est" (To err is human). Then another way to skin the proverbial cat would be to go to Family Search. Besides civil transcripts, the parish baptismal records, which are housed in the Archive of the Diocese of Włocławek, are available on Family Search. Since many of my ancestors belonged to the parish of Chodecz I used the ecclesiastical registers to research ancestors prior to 1808. There were also several times when there was no civil transcript for a relative or two and I found the record in the Sacramental Registers. There existed multiple copies of the civil transcripts and there was always the possibility of inadvertent omissions. The trick is that the Sacramental Registers were filmed and have been digitized but must be viewed at a Family History Center or accredited library or by loging in through an LDS account. The other drawback is that there are no indexes in the Sacramental Registers so it it necessary to look at all the entries for a given year. The good news is that the entries are in the short paragraph style which was typical of Sacramental Registers at that time and place. The bad news is that there are usually around 200 baptismal entries for a given year. The Latin entries usualoly begin with the name of the priest who did the baptizing followed by the words (or abbreviation) ‘infantem nomine’ followed by the child’s name. Once you get that far into the record youcan skip any name other than ‘Martinum’. This method will cut down on the time involved.
Here is the link to the records you would need:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/008018911?cat=214993

A search of those records may or may not produce the record you need, but at least you will know that you left no stone un-turned.

Good luck in your quest.

Dave
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djablonka



Joined: 22 Jun 2018
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Location: West Chester, Ohio

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:43 am      Post subject: Re: Suggestions for Finding Birth Record - Marcina Zwoliński
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Thank you Dave and Gilberto. I appreciate the guidance and will press on.

If Marcin was adopted, would there be a record for that with province?

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Tina Ellis



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Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:46 am      Post subject:
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I found an adoption record for one of my relatives in the church birth/baptism records. He was in his early 20's. His father's brother adopted him. One couple had kids and one did not, so the brother let him adopt one of his son's. The brother without the heir needed one. If I remember correctly, it was in the 1840's. It actually said he was adopted.

Tina Ellis
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djablonka



Joined: 22 Jun 2018
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Location: West Chester, Ohio

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:34 pm      Post subject:
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Tina Ellis wrote:
I found an adoption record for one of my relatives in the church birth/baptism records. He was in his early 20's. His father's brother adopted him. One couple had kids and one did not, so the brother let him adopt one of his son's. The brother without the heir needed one. If I remember correctly, it was in the 1840's. It actually said he was adopted.

Tina Ellis


Tina,
That is very interesting information. Thank you for sharing this. I will look into it.
Sincerely,
Dave Jablonka

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Tina Ellis



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Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:19 pm      Post subject:
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I don't know if they did legal adoptions. Surely, they must have. I just thought in the baptismal records was an odd place to find it. I think the son was in the 21 to 26 age range. Once I found a baptismal record 5 years after the child was born. That's a long time to wait to get it done. Maybe they just forgot. What I'm getting at is, just because we don't find things as they should be, be sure to
check church records.

Tina
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Booby



Joined: 01 Apr 2014
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:35 am      Post subject:
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Tina Ellis wrote:
I don't know if they did legal adoptions. Surely, they must have. I just thought in the baptismal records was an odd place to find it. I think the son was in the 21 to 26 age range. Once I found a baptismal record 5 years after the child was born. That's a long time to wait to get it done. Maybe they just forgot. What I'm getting at is, just because we don't find things as they should be, be sure to
check church records.

Tina


Related to the possibility of adoption, You could possibly look for any/all Marcin's who were born as illegitimate (to a single mother who did not name the father). Perhaps later that single mother married a man named Zwolińskiego and thus Marcin assumed the Zwolińskiego surname.

Or, you could look for any/all Marcin's who were born to another couple/surname in which the god parents named are of Zwolińskiego surname. It is possible that the parents died (disease) and child Marcin survived and was taken in by the Zwolińskiego god parents to then raise him. I would think in his marriage record he would use his original surname and not the Zwolińskiego surname, though if the god parents were also the Zwolińskiego surname (then this would be like an uncle 'adopting' a nephew when the father dies).

Yes, it is a lot of work, but a lot of events are possible.


booby
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Tina Ellis



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Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:00 am      Post subject:
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Dave Jablonka ...

One more thing. One of my 3rd great grandmother's was born out of wedlock. In one of the birth records for her children, there was a maiden name given that was not the same as her maiden names in her marriage record to my 3rd great grandfather. When I found that tidbit of information, I thought the priest may have know who the bride's birth father was. I have never gone back to pursue the possibility of pinpointing the family in which the father (with no first name) may have existed.

Happy Hunting,
Tina Ellis
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