Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:04 am
Post subject: Frances Paprotski - Per her kids
I am trying to locate immigration records or any record of my Grandmother's before she was married. I have her death record that does not list her maiden name but does say she born Circa 1921 and the date she passed in 1960. I also have her marriage log that lists her as Frances Pap=Rotski ( in script in the log it looks like Paprotski but very hard to tell ) when she married my Grandfather Joseph Horn. Per her youngest daughter and her niece ( she had a sister EDNA ) she was born in Poland . Given that info I thought I could find immigration records but I am seeing nothing? Any hints or clues?
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1033
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:28 am
Post subject:
Hi,
Given the pronunciation "Paprotski", it is very possible that the true spelling is Paprocki. Being female, her surname would have been Paprocka. Her first name, Frances, would have been Franciszka.
If you are able to scan the log which you are finding difficult to read, you can post the image here for others to look at.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:14 am
Post subject:
Actually looked back at the 1940 census .... and low and behold her parents were living with them? Still having issues figuring out names. Interesting that her mother was from Russia and my Great-Grandfather was from Poland.
They are listed on census ( per extraction ) as -
Constilo Popnieski - Polish 53 years old - but not sure as that is what is extracted ... I can't tell as it is tough to read script.
Helen Popnieski - Russian 55 years old
My grandmother is listed on the census as Horn
I attached the census ... curious if you read their names as they are extracted and if they make sense.
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:30 pm
Post subject:
Hello,
Here is some circumstantial evidence that is the United States the name may have been Paprotski. It could have been different in Poland.
Edna Paprotski
United States Census, 1930
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4PB-MW6
Was your grandmother’s sister older than your grandmother? This Edna was born in 1913.
Horn
New York, New York City Municipal Deaths, 1795-1949
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WGP-D58
This infant death in 1947 shows father Joseph Horn, mother Frances Paprotski
Constantine Poprowski
New York, New York City Municipal Deaths, 1795-1949
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WPH-QRJ
He lived in the 3600 block of 214th Pl – the same location as the census record that you found. Age a couple years younger, but within range. It gives his wife as Helen and his father’s name as Mike Constantine Poprowski . Died 1942. Buried in Mt. St, Mary's cemetery.
Constantine Paprotski
Find A Grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176831464/constantine-paprotski
Died 7 Jan 1942, BURIAL Mount Saint Mary Cemetery, Flushing, Queens County, New York,
PLOT Section: 3, Row: 76, Grave: 8
Helen Paprotski
Find A Grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176831777/helen-paprotski
Died 26 Jan 1961. BURIAL Mount Saint Mary Cemetery, Flushing, Queens County, New York, USA Show
PLOT Section: 3, Row: 76, Grave: 8
Same grave as Constantine
Try contacting Mount Saint Mary’s Cemetery and see if they have any more information about the deaths. They may know what parish they were buried from and that parish have more info on the family.
Note, familysearch is free, you just have to register.
Sadly, it is very common for Polish names to be spelled incorrectly in US records.
Good luck.
Diane
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:24 am
Post subject:
Hi Bhorn and Diane,
Both of you are indicating that the family used the spelling Paprotski in the U.S. and I agree with that. It is not, however, a proper Polish spelling, so I am working under the assumption that they, like many families, changed how they spelled their surname in order to make it easier for people to say it closer to its original pronunciation. I still lean toward the spelling being Paprocki in original Polish documents and on a ship passenger manifest. Here is a map showing the distribution of that surname in current-day Poland:
http://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Paprocki
When it comes to the spelling of names, census records are unreliable. The indexes that were created from ship manifests are even worse. At any rate, if you use the Steve Morse search engine for ship manifests, you have the option of using just a few letters with which the given name or the surname begin. You could, in this situation, search for given name starting with FRAN and surname starting with PAPRO and that would yield you both Frances Paprotski as well as Franciszka Paprocka and all kinds of creative misinterpretations of the name which could be her. The Morse search engine is here:
http://stevemorse.org/ellis2/elliswhite.html and in this particular case I am choosing his "white" form rather than his "gold" form because the gold form searches end in 1924. Given the year that you say Frances was born in Poland, and not knowing what year she emigrated, that gold form might not get you an answer. Another aid to your search for her immigration record is to guess that she might have been travelling with one or both of her parents, and this can be useful in cases where a person is recorded as "Infant" rather than with their actual given name. I cannot quite figure out Frances's father's name, but Helen in Polish is Helena and that should be part of your search. The sister Edna is a little confusing to me, because in her 1930 census record she seems to indicate having been born in New York around 1913, suggesting that the family immigrated much earlier. The place of birth for Frances is not filled in on the 1940 census. It throws a question mark onto the thought of Francis having been born in Poland.
Best of luck sorting it all out,
Sophia
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:16 pm
Post subject:
Hi Sophia,
A brief search of polish records online did show that Paprotski as a spelling in Poland would be very unlikely. With less understanding of the Polish language and pronunciation than others here, like you:) I can’t suggest the original spelling. My focus was on the spelling in the US with the hope that finding more current records could help lead back to the older records. I do see the spelling of Paprocki in Polish records. You may well just be a step ahead of me in solving Bhorn's mystery about the name:)
I too was confused by the 1930 census info for this Edna saying that she was born in the US. That could mean either that this is the wrong Edna or that Edna and Frances were born in the US instead. I did find other records on Edna, if Bhorn can confirm that Edna was the older sister, I can post them too.
Diane
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:14 am
Post subject:
Hi Diane,
Your approach is really a good one, and you have a good eye for finding records when the names have been spelled "creatively" on US documents and in indices. I stayed with this search for a bit, but am unable to find ship manifests for Francis or Helen, especially since we cannot yet narrow down the year of travel. A few more US records might assist with that. In the meantime, your suggestion to Bhorn to contact the cemetery is one that I hope they can follow up on. It may lead to the name of a church, in whose records more info could be found.
Best,
Sophia
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2793
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:39 am
Post subject:
| Sophia wrote: | Hi Diane,
Your approach is really a good one, and you have a good eye for finding records when the names have been spelled "creatively" on US documents and in indices. I stayed with this search for a bit, but am unable to find ship manifests for Francis or Helen, especially since we cannot yet narrow down the year of travel. A few more US records might assist with that. In the meantime, your suggestion to Bhorn to contact the cemetery is one that I hope they can follow up on. It may lead to the name of a church, in whose records more info could be found.
Best,
Sophia |
Hi Sophia, Diane & Bhorn.
Attached is a list of Polish ethnic parishes in Queens. On the 1940 Census image it looks like the enumerator wrote "Bayside" and then crossed it out. St. Josephat was a Polish parish in Bayside. Being Second City born and raised, I know very little about Queens, the Bronx, etc. If any of the other names ring any bells, perhaps one of the parishes listed may be a place to search for information.
Wishing you success,
Dave
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:51 pm
Post subject:
Sophia & Diana,
Sorry I was away from this for a bit. My Aunt Enda was older ( at least I can assume she was ) her kids were older than my Dad's brothers and sisters. I did talk to my Aunt Diana ( my Dad's youngest sister ) and she confirmed that her Grandmother ( Helena ) was born in Russia? I live around an hour from Bayside / Queens and can chase those leads in a couple of weeks. I will email the church asap and maybe i will get lucky.
Thanks so much.
Brad
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:10 pm
Post subject:
So I was searching a bit more for marriage records and I found what could be my Great Grand Parents Marriage record. Dates make a bit of sense... names are close
Marriage: Jan 9 1912
Brooklyn, New York City, New York, United States
Groom: Constanty Paproska
Bride: Helen Klimowicz
License #: 356
Given the dates 1912 - Aunt Edna ( my Grandmother Sister ) daughter born in 1913 .
I then searched immigration records on this name. I have a match for an entry in 1905. She was 17 traveling alone - She lived in Kowno , Russia, Lithuania and her race is listed as Polish.
Her arrival contact was Franciszek Ranichewski ... listed as her "Brother I L" ? Weird as my Grandmothers name is Frances, would she name a daughter after her brother?
Please pick any of these theories apart as I have quickly learned it is very easy to go far down a wrong path. If this is correct. If it is correct I will see if I can follow this lead further .
Thanks,
Brad
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:56 am
Post subject:
Hi Brad,
Very interesting! Konstanty (that's the Polish spelling) and Helena were married in Brooklyn. So it now seems much more likely that your Frances was not born in Poland. Regarding the ship manifest for Helen, her arrival contact Franciszek would have been her brother in law (sometimes abbreviated as Br-I-L but as you saw it, Brother I L). As far as how people of that era chose names for their children, there was a tradition of naming after a saint. Even today you can find calendars which tell you which saint's day it is. One would look at the saints for the day of birth of a child (give or take a few days, until you found a saint you liked) and choose that name. You can find many explanations of this cultural habit online, but here is one:
http://www.polartcenter.com/articles.asp?id=197
It gives March 9th as the name day for Franciszka - - is that anywhere close to the birthday of your Frances?
Also, I think you will find it helpful to read a bit about the history of Poland and Lithuania, so that you can understand better why one might correctly be called a Russian national of Polish ethnicity, who was born in a place that is currently Lithuania.
Best regards,
Sophia
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:34 pm
Post subject:
Sophia,
Great so it is coming together a bit. I am not sure of Frances birth date, since I don' t have any records that list it. My Aunt told me it was in November but she was very young so I can't be 100% sure of that.
I did get one more piece of undocumented info. My cousin's mother, the deceased eldest daughter of Edna, told her that our Great Grandfather changed his name from Gustov to Konstanty. Again undocumented just family rumor.
One final interesting thing. When my Grandmother died her mom got into her house right after it happened and started burning all of her pictures. My Aunt witnessed her doing it and saw my Grandfather throw her out. Unfortunately we lost all but 3 pictures of her when this happened. My question, that I don't see any info on yet, is this some sort of tradition?
I am trying my best to learn as much as possible and really appreciate your help. The border movement is very complex but I keep reading and retain a little.
Thanks,
Brad
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staufr1
Joined: 09 Aug 2020
Replies: 1
Location: Princeton, MNBack to top |
Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:11 pm
Post subject:
Brad,
Ron Here. This line of thinking makes a lot of sense. Joan H. Horn, Francine's mom, middle name is Helen and she was the older than Harry and Joseph. I have Joan's birthday as Nov. 24, 1938.
Cheers,
Ron Stauffer
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starkey76
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Replies: 164
Location: Wheeling, WV USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:13 am
Post subject:
If the Konstanty that died in 1942 is who you're looking for, a few things. On his death, it says veterans administration. With that in mind, I saw this, from WW1 registration and NY military service record. It lists Wilna as place of birth, and he was gassed in service(which might have lead to carcinoma of Larnyx on death), and Bayside Queens residence. Hope this helps
John
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Last edited by starkey76 on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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starkey76
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Replies: 164
Location: Wheeling, WV USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:17 am
Post subject:
I would think if he was a wounded veteran, you might be able to contact VA and see if they still have file on him, and where he lived from end of service to his death.
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