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Winkle/Harvinski



Joined: 13 Aug 2019
Replies: 12
Location: Canfield, Ohio

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:03 pm      Post subject: Several Wielkopolski --ska
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While trying to trace my grandfather Louis Winkle (b. 1877) I read that many Winkles (Winkiel) were from Wielkopolski. There are at least three towns of this name in west central Poland with another name in front of them. Is Wielkopolska perhaps a province or state? ...William
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I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:48 pm      Post subject:
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Hello William,

I found 1900, 1910, and 1920 census records for Leo Winkel, born 20 Feb 1877 in German Poland. His wife is Margaret (Maggie) Harden, Harzen, or Harzinski. The census shows they lived in Winslow, McCalmont, and Osceola Mills - all of which are in Jefferson County, Pennsylvania. After 1920, the family moved to Youngstown, Mahoning, Ohio where Leo died in 1926. As of the 1920 census, their children still living with them were:
Frank L Winkel 19
Zigford A Winkel 15
Vincent Winkel 13
John B Winkel 11
Joseph Winkel 9
Louise M Winkel 17
Helen M Winkel 7
Catherine Winkel 3
Anna M Winkel 0


If this sounds like your grandfather's family, I suggest you contact the Jefferson County clerks office and ask them to locate their marriage application. The 1900 census indicates they were married in 1898-1899. Usually, the marriage application will include their place of birth and parents names. Here is a link to the contact information for the clerk's office:
https://www.jeffersoncountypa.com/register-recorder/

If you cannot locate the marriage record with the county, you can try looking for the churches in Winslow, Jefferson, Pennsylvania. You can narrow it down if you know their faith tradition: Catholic? Evangelical? There is probably only several possible churches in Winslow, and once you find them you can contact each of them and request a search for the marriage record.

The marriage record would be your best option for finding his village of birth in Poland.
Good luck,
Cynthia
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Winkle/Harvinski



Joined: 13 Aug 2019
Replies: 12
Location: Canfield, Ohio

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:01 pm      Post subject: Thank you
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Thank you, Cynthia. It took me years to find all the information above that you found immediately. I have all of it -- except the marriage record. I should have looked a lot harder for it because all of the other docs -- draft, land deed, census, etc. -- I have give nothing but Poland Germany for his origins. I have checked church records with no luck, but I'm going to check your link for Jefferson. He does not show up on any ship records, Ellis Island or Castle Garden, but I found recently that he probably landed in Baltimore. Thanks again and please let me know if you find any other angles.
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I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:54 pm      Post subject:
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Hello William,

I do have two other avenues to suggest if you have not yet done so.

1. I found an index in Jefferson County PA naturalization records for your grandfather in Family Search. He was admitted as a citizen in 1893 by the Jefferson County circuit judge and the record or file number for his naturalization documents is 281. When you contact Jefferson county for the marriage application, you might want to inquire about this as well. Ask them for both the petition and the oath. Attached is the page with his name on it. He is in second column, seventh from bottom.

2. When you checked church records, did you check both Roman Catholic and Evangelical? I have discovered in my own family research in the German areas of Poland that they sometimes switched between churches. I suggest you check both Catholic and all forms of Evangelical churches near the towns in which they lived.... especially Winslow... for marriage record if you don’t find the civil record.

Best,
Cynthia



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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:34 am      Post subject:
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I think I found his death certificate in Family Search. It gives his fathers name as John Winkel. See attached.

Cynthia



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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 pm      Post subject:
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Hi William,

Good news: I found Leo Winkel's marriage record on Family Search! Bad news: it does not show his place of birth. However it does show his parent's names are: John and Annie Winkel.

It also shows the catholic priest who married them and the town in which they were married (Adrian, PA). See attached.

Given the documents I found, this seems to be the most accurate dates for Leo Winkel:

B. 10 Jul 1875 (per WWI Draft Registration; this would be more accurate than any other document such as a census, death cert, etc., because he is reporting the information in person to the draft board - it is not second hand like in the other documents. It also aligns with his age on the marriage record)

M. 8 Nov 1898 in Adrian, PA (license filed in Armstrong county, PA)

D. 24 Apr 1926 in Youngstown Hospital, Ohio (per death certificate)

Cynthia



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Winkle/Harvinski



Joined: 13 Aug 2019
Replies: 12
Location: Canfield, Ohio

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:23 pm      Post subject:
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WOW, Cynthia! Thank you very much. I talked to a pleasant young lady at Jefferson records dept., but she had no records whatsoever for Leo Winkle. Also, many hours on Family Search and other sites did not bring up the critical marriage record that has the names not available on other sites or documents. I drove to Adrian in June and got baptismal records for the children, my mother, aunts and uncles, but nothing else. I've not had time to follow up, but I can't wait to look for Leo in Elenora, PA -- a town that NEVER appeared in years of research. It might show who Leo (not Louis) was living with.

I was also laboring under the wrong naturalization record. It listed a Louis Leo Winkel from Cleveland, which didn't seem right; your much earlier record makes a lot more sense. I cannot understand why these records never showed up.

Can't thank you enough. I hope we keep in touch. I sometimes get lost on the Polish Origins website.

Bill

_________________
I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:57 pm      Post subject:
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Hi William,

You are very welcome. I am happy to help. I understand what it is like to search for a family member. My grandfather was lost to our family for almost 100 years. It took years of persevering and collecting tiny clues before I finally had a breakthrough and found him. You will find your grandfathers family in Poland eventually. Just keep going.

As to finding records on Family Search.... they are continually adding and indexing new records. That’s probably why I found them. You have to keep going back every now and then.

I am sure you will go to Eleanora PA and inquire at the Catholic Churches there to request a search of the sacramental marriage records. If you can’t find it at the local churches, try the diocese. I don’t know which diocese oversees Armstrong county, but you should be able to find that out fairly easily. The diocese may have the old records archived even if the parish in Eleanora no longer exists.

Did you ask the lady at Jefferson county about the 1893 naturalization record?

Keep me posted on your search. I know you will find him.

Best,
Cynthia
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 pm      Post subject:
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mcdonald0517 wrote:
Hi William,

You are very welcome. I am happy to help. I understand what it is like to search for a family member. My grandfather was lost to our family for almost 100 years. It took years of persevering and collecting tiny clues before I finally had a breakthrough and found him. You will find your grandfathers family in Poland eventually. Just keep going.

As to finding records on Family Search.... they are continually adding and indexing new records. That’s probably why I found them. You have to keep going back every now and then.

I am sure you will go to Eleanora PA and inquire at the Catholic Churches there to request a search of the sacramental marriage records. If you can’t find it at the local churches, try the diocese. I don’t know which diocese oversees Armstrong county, but you should be able to find that out fairly easily. The diocese may have the old records archived even if the parish in Eleanora no longer exists.

Did you ask the lady at Jefferson county about the 1893 naturalization record?

Keep me posted on your search. I know you will find him.

Best,
Cynthia


Hi Bill & Cynthia,

Armstrong County is currently part of the diocese of Greensburg, PA. In the 19th Century it was part of the diocese of Pittsburgh. I looked for the priest who officiated at the wedding, Rev. J. N. Zubrycki and found a passing reference to him in Adrian in about 1900. Here is the link to the article:
https://liturgicalcenter.org/media/parish_pdf/GBG/gbg-20.1.pdf
It appears that there never was a Catholic parish in Adrian so my guess is that he ministered to the Poles of that area as a mission connected to a parish in another place. (The above article mentions that a mission church (SS Peter & Paul) existed in Arcadia from 1905-1990, but that would not be the place where the marriage record would be housed.) Elenora was where the groom lived but the marriage record would be housed in the parish to which the priest was connected. I don’t believe that Elenora would be a viable place to look for the record. I checked Włacław Kruszka’s Historya Polska w Ameryce (1908) and he does not list a Polish parish in the area. I seems that the closest R.C. parish to Adrian is St. Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe in Kittanning (7.2 miles). If you can’t get the marriage record from the place where you got the baptismal records a possible place where the record could be housed would be the church in Kittanning. If the record is not there you might try contacting the diocese of Greensburg. When you request their marriage record don’t ask for a marriage certificate. That will not contain the info you need to trace back to where your grandparents were from in Europe. As for a photocopy of the entry in the parish marriage register. It should be in Latin and should name the place where they were baptized in Europe.

It looks like the marriage license return which Cynthia found may bring you the hammer you need to break down the proverbial brick wall you wrote about.

Wishing you success,

Dave
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:11 am      Post subject:
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Hi Dave and William,

After reading what Dave wrote, I went back to the marriage record to look again. The marriage license was actually issued in Tioga county which is where the bride lived. The return certificate signed by the priest indicates the marriage took place in Adrian which is in Armstrong county. It also indicates the groom lived in Elenora which is in Jefferson County (about midway between Tioga county and Armstrong County). All the great research Dave did still applies. You still need to track down the sacramental parish record in Adrian, Armstrong county, diocese of Greensburg. That is where the priest was and so the marriage took place there.

I just wanted to be clear as to which county the license originated. Also, this may provide a clue as to where Leo was living. Perhaps he was living in Tioga county when he first met Maggie and decided to get married. Leo May have gone ahead to Elenora in Jefferson county to find work and then returned to Tioga for Maggie. Perhaps they got the license before leaving Tioga and then went on to Adrian in Armstrong county to again find work in the mines and actually got married at a church there. A working theory based on the evidence thus far.

It wouldn’t hurt to look in Tioga county for evidence of Leo living there before he married in 1898.

Great work, Dave!
I love it when the community works together!

Best,
Cynthia
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Winkle/Harvinski



Joined: 13 Aug 2019
Replies: 12
Location: Canfield, Ohio

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:05 am      Post subject:
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Cynthia and Dave,

Once again I can't thank you enough for your help.

I don't have time for great detail right now, but thanks to your info I found Leon/Leo Winkel with his parents Johann (John) and Anna (Annie) in Witkowo, a town of about 8000. Leo was never named Louis -- another bum steer -- but I think it was Leon in Poland and Leo thereafter in the US. (Anna's last name is mentioned as a prominent family in Poland in Michener's "Poland.")

I am excited to start digging further into all of their origins.

Bill

PS I've been ignoring Leo during research because of the "Leon."
PPS I've been researching Magdelena Harzinski along with Leo the whole time but don't mention it now to keep from scrambling my brains -- and maybe yours.

_________________
I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:54 pm      Post subject:
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William,

That is fabulous news!! Congratulations!

When you have the time, I would love to hear how it all came together.

Also, as I was browsing through PA county marriage licenses in Family Search, I think I came across Leo's sibling - Stanislawa (Stella) Winkel. She married William Brezenski in 1895. Residence is Eleanora, PA and her parents are John and Annie Winkel.

See attached.

All the best,
Cynthia



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Winkle/Harvinski



Joined: 13 Aug 2019
Replies: 12
Location: Canfield, Ohio

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:53 am      Post subject:
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Thanks again, Cynthia. That's very interesting about Stella. It should make it easier to track down the family in Poland. However, so far I haven't had any luck researching Winkels in Witkowo nor in Eleanor, PA. It seems that village no longer exists. There is, however, an Eleanor Rd. which is only a couple miles long and an Eleanor mine where there was a tragic accident in late 1800s. Fortunately that area is much closer to where I live then the areas where they moved further east.

I did have some rare luck while following your leads. When I searched Leon Winkel on Fam. S. and then tried to connect the data to a tree, a window popped up asking me which person on the tree I wanted. Voila! One of them was a Leon Winkel who was from Witkowo and the names of the spouses and parents and dates matched. Why in the world this would come up unasked when I could never find in on a search is strange.

Regards,
Billl

PS Please let me know when you get this; I'm still having trouble hitting the right button to respond to your messages and need to know if this is the one.

_________________
I've been chasing my grandfather Leo Winkle for years, but have been unable to find where and with whom he came from in Eastern Europe at age 12 and why. Also, he disappeared from the records from age 12 to age 20. Al.
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:26 am      Post subject:
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Hi William,

Yes, the Eleanora coal mine is where they lived and worked. Leo was a miner - many of the documents list miner as his occupation. The coal companies built housing for the workers and their families and viola a little village or town emerges. When the mine closes, the village collapses and people move out.

I found a fascinating document on the history of the Eleanora coal mine that really gives the reader a “slice of life” as to what it was like to live and work there. It is a pdf file. I will try and load it here later today.

Yes, it can sometimes feel magical when things suddenly pop up during your research. I have to keep reminding myself that things on the internet are always changing. New search engines, upgraded web content, new documents, etc. it is one reason I keep battering those genealogical walls!

More later today...

Cynthia

Ps - you pushed the right button
Very Happy
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 pm      Post subject:
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Hi William,

Found this marriage index entry on the Poznán Project website. It lines up with the names on the Family Search tree you found and the date lines up with the subsequent birth of their children - Stanislawa and Leon. This could be your Johan and Anna.


Catholic parish Witkowo
entry 9 / 1873
Joannes Winkel (27 years old) 100%
father: Martinus Winkel , mother: Agnes
Anna Bentkoska nee Barankiewicz (26 years old, widow) 70%
father: Joseph Barankiewicz , mother: Barbara

This is just the index. To request the
Is record ( and Leon’s birth record) you need to contact the archdiocese of Gniezno....here is a note from the website:

Our database only provides basic information to identify the spouses. There is no liability for the accuracy, as it depends on the quality of the record and the skills of the transcriber. The full information about the marriage can only be found in the original records.
The original record for this marriage is held in the Archdiocesan Archive in Gniezno, Poland.
To obtain a certificate or digital copy, or any further research, please refer to the information provided by the Archdiocese.

The archive's postal address:
Archiwum Archidiecezjalne w Gnieznie
Ul. Kolegiaty 2
62-200 Gniezno
POLAND

WWW: http://www.archiwum.archidiecezja.pl

Best,
Cynthia
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