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Henry M. Deskewies



Joined: 19 Aug 2019
Replies: 5
Location: Burns, Tn 37029

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:20 am      Post subject: Duplicate Given Family Name
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Confused with these findings in Wloclawek.

My grandfather's records all show Wladyslaw Deskiewicz, born 1884, Wloclawek.

Wladyslaw (1884) had a brother also named Wladyslaw Deskiewicz, born 1883, Wloclawek.
All data corresponds for Wladyslaw (1883). Vital records indicate the same parents.

The archives in Wloclawek sent records for all family members except the on for Wladyslaw (1884). Did they miss something?

Once established in America they both used their given names Wladyslaw (1883) used Wladyslaw, his 1884 brother used Walter.

Would appreciate any input on this issue.

H.M. Deskewies

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Sophia
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:38 pm      Post subject: Re: Duplicate Given Family Name
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Henry M. Deskewies wrote:
Confused with these findings in Wloclawek.

My grandfather's records all show Wladyslaw Deskiewicz, born 1884, Wloclawek.

Wladyslaw (1884) had a brother also named Wladyslaw Deskiewicz, born 1883, Wloclawek.
All data corresponds for Wladyslaw (1883). Vital records indicate the same parents.

The archives in Wloclawek sent records for all family members except the on for Wladyslaw (1884). Did they miss something?

Once established in America they both used their given names Wladyslaw (1883) used Wladyslaw, his 1884 brother used Walter.

Would appreciate any input on this issue.

H.M. Deskewies



Hi Henry,
Well, that's a puzzle. Families do not have the habit of giving two children the same name. I could speculate on possible scenarios, but it would be better if I could first understand what you know about the two Wladyslaws. Did you actually know your grandfather's brother, or have you seen photos of him or heard stories of him? Or has he "appeared" in records as you have searched for documents on your grandfather?
Also, I would be interested to see the 1883 birth record, if you are able to post it here.
Very interesting,
Sophia
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Henry M. Deskewies



Joined: 19 Aug 2019
Replies: 5
Location: Burns, Tn 37029

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:00 am      Post subject: Deskiewicz Puzzle
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Sofia,
Thank you for your response (fast) to my "puzzle". Attached are copies of documents
that I have collected. I hope that they can be useful in solving this puzzle of given names.

My readings indicate that families NEVER used duplicate given names, that is unless there are
male/female, IE, Walclaw-Walcalwa, children.

I am looking forward to solving this puzzle.

Best regards,
H.M. Deskewies



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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:04 pm      Post subject: Re: Deskiewicz Puzzle
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Henry M. Deskewies wrote:
Sofia,
Thank you for your response (fast) to my "puzzle". Attached are copies of documents
that I have collected. I hope that they can be useful in solving this puzzle of given names.

My readings indicate that families NEVER used duplicate given names, that is unless there are
male/female, IE, Walclaw-Walcalwa, children.

I am looking forward to solving this puzzle.

Best regards,
H.M. Deskewies


Hi Henry,
You have done a beautiful job of putting together your documents.
Here is my hypothesis: there is only one Wladyslaw.
He was born in 1883, on October 30th (according to the Gregorian calendar) / November 11th (according to the Julian calendar).
After emigrating, there were not many situations in which he needed to prove his birth date. He might not even have known the actual day. However, if you look online at Polish "name day" calendars, you will see that Wladyslaw actually has three days (April 2, June 22 and Sept 25). He probably knew that he was born in the autumn, consulted a name day calendar and simply selected a day that seemed close enough, Sept 29th. Once he used that date on an official government document (his social security application, which he filled out in 1938), he would have used the same date on the next official government document (his WWII registration, which he filled out in 1942). As for getting the year wrong, well, to be one year off does not seem all that bad, in my opinion.
It is also my opinion that people with names that were "difficult" for non-Poles to pronounce often used an anglicized name when dealing with non-Poles. So, within his family and within the Polish-American community, he could have continued to use Wladyslaw for his whole life. Outside of those circumstances, he could have gone by Walter for the convenience of others.
Give it some thought, and see if you agree.
Best,
Sophia
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Henryk
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:14 pm      Post subject:
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I have reviewed records that confirm that a second wife gave her child the same name as a still living child of the first wife. The father thus had two living sons with the same name.
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Henry M. Deskewies



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Location: Burns, Tn 37029

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:43 pm      Post subject: Deskewicz Puzzle
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Wladyslaw (1883) is not an issue. He born to as stated to a widower/widow, married in 1880 (confirmed). Looks like he used
Wladyslaw all of his life. I ordered an obit (in Polish) from from NY that may offer some clues about the brothers.Wladyslaw.

I agree with both of your hypothesis.

I often wondered why the two brothers didn't stay together in upstate NY, one in Buffalo, NY, the other near Albany, NY about 300 miles apart. Wladyslaw (1884) aka Walter as long as I knew him, was always called Walter by the adults. He bought quite a bit of property and parceled out building lots to every one of his children, the remaining property was used to grow food and work the ground. We all had to work in the dirt and knew then that I could not not be a farmer.

There's another possibility. Second marriage was 1880, first born to that new union was 1881, name of Wincenty (Vincent I believe). Walter's middle name was Vincent as indicated on documents. I expect a translated birth record tomorrow for a Vincent, born 1881. Maybe this document can solve the puzzle.

All of your expert input is greatly appreciated by not only me, but the other members as well.

Best regards,
Henry M. Deskewies (Deskiewicz)

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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:57 pm      Post subject: Re: Deskiewicz Puzzle
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Sophia wrote:
Henry M. Deskewies wrote:
Sofia,
Thank you for your response (fast) to my "puzzle". Attached are copies of documents
that I have collected. I hope that they can be useful in solving this puzzle of given names.

My readings indicate that families NEVER used duplicate given names, that is unless there are
male/female, IE, Walclaw-Walcalwa, children.

I am looking forward to solving this puzzle.

Best regards,
H.M. Deskewies


Hi Henry,
You have done a beautiful job of putting together your documents.
Here is my hypothesis: there is only one Wladyslaw.
He was born in 1883, on October 30th (according to the Gregorian calendar) / November 11th (according to the Julian calendar).
After emigrating, there were not many situations in which he needed to prove his birth date. He might not even have known the actual day. However, if you look online at Polish "name day" calendars, you will see that Wladyslaw actually has three days (April 2, June 22 and Sept 25). He probably knew that he was born in the autumn, consulted a name day calendar and simply selected a day that seemed close enough, Sept 29th. Once he used that date on an official government document (his social security application, which he filled out in 1938), he would have used the same date on the next official government document (his WWII registration, which he filled out in 1942). As for getting the year wrong, well, to be one year off does not seem all that bad, in my opinion.
It is also my opinion that people with names that were "difficult" for non-Poles to pronounce often used an anglicized name when dealing with non-Poles. So, within his family and within the Polish-American community, he could have continued to use Wladyslaw for his whole life. Outside of those circumstances, he could have gone by Walter for the convenience of others.
Give it some thought, and see if you agree.
Best,
Sophia


Hi Henry & Sophia,

Although what Henryk wrote is true it does not apply to your puzzle since the 1883 & 1884 Władysławs would have been born of the same mother. I wholeheartedly agree with Sophia’s hypothesis that there is only one Władysław and I see her reasoning as spot on given that name days and not actual birthdays were important and were celebrated in Poland.

In case you have not seen the first marriage of Konstancja Osińska to Antoni Malinowski here is the link to the image (1876 #29): https://genealogiawarchiwach.pl/#query.type=ALL&query.facetQuery.date=1876&query.city=W%25C5%2582oc%25C5%2582awek&query.suggestion=false&query.thumbnails=false&query.facet=true&query.asc=false&query.sortMode=PUBLICATION&modal=293833637&personTree=false&goComments=false&searcher=big&query.query . Also, the image is attached.

Wishing you success,

Dave



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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:54 pm      Post subject: Re: Deskewicz Puzzle
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Henry M. Deskewies wrote:
Wladyslaw (1883) is not an issue. He born to as stated to a widower/widow, married in 1880 (confirmed). Looks like he used
Wladyslaw all of his life. I ordered an obit (in Polish) from from NY that may offer some clues about the brothers.Wladyslaw.

I agree with both of your hypothesis.

I often wondered why the two brothers didn't stay together in upstate NY, one in Buffalo, NY, the other near Albany, NY about 300 miles apart. Wladyslaw (1884) aka Walter as long as I knew him, was always called Walter by the adults. He bought quite a bit of property and parceled out building lots to every one of his children, the remaining property was used to grow food and work the ground. We all had to work in the dirt and knew then that I could not not be a farmer.

There's another possibility. Second marriage was 1880, first born to that new union was 1881, name of Wincenty (Vincent I believe). Walter's middle name was Vincent as indicated on documents. I expect a translated birth record tomorrow for a Vincent, born 1881. Maybe this document can solve the puzzle.

All of your expert input is greatly appreciated by not only me, but the other members as well.

Best regards,
Henry M. Deskewies (Deskiewicz)


Hello Henry,
When you first posed your puzzle, I asked if your grandfather's brother was someone you knew (or knew of, through family stories, etc) or if he was someone who simply appeared when you searched for documents on your grandfather. Your reply to me included only documents. That is what shaped my hypothesis that there was only one Wladyslaw. Now, you have added some family lore that tells us more about Walter. This changes my perspective a little bit. My new view of the matter is that the man you are calling "1884 Wladyslaw" may actually be the brother Wincenty. Wincenty would become Vincent in English, but he may have chosen to relegate that name to "middle name" status if either he did not like it very much or if he wished to keep the first initial W, and so he chose to be called Walter Vincent Deszkiewicz. There was no hard and fast rule that to become Walter you had to have been Wladyslaw. He could just as easily chosen to call himself William.
I think there is one additional avenue you could explore: conduct research into land purchases and sales, since you mention that Walter had a lot of property. You may even be able to obtain a copy of his will. It is possible that all of this will only show his name as Walter, but you never know.
In the end, I am sticking to my position that there was only one Wladyslaw, but I am coming at it from a different angle this time: one Wladyslaw, and one Walter (Wincenty). Dave, I'd be very interested to know your thoughts on this. As always, you bring solid reasoning to the discussion.
Best regards,
Sophia


Last edited by Sophia on Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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sirdan
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:34 pm      Post subject:
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Hello,
Registered Adress card of Deszkiewicz family here https://meldunkowe.genealodzy.pl/meldunkowe.php?op=se&lastname=deskiewicz&zsnrc=zsall&kln=k&wos=KP&rpp1=0&rpp2=50&ro=KLS&exac=&lang= [link updated] confirms Władysław was born in 1883.

There is WWI registration card of Władysław Deskiewicz with birth date 8th of November 1883. Its three days off, maybe problem with date switching from russian system? His relative Bronisława is wife in fact according to 1920 census. Year of imigration 1910.

Władysław birth date on passenger list (1884/1885) is not indicating truly birth date of course, because such documents almost always store approximate dates.

I cannot explain right now parents on SSN application. Pay attention that 1884 Walter Wincent was born in Warsaw according to WWII draft record. And if his wife is Anna and they living in Albany, then 1930 census gives 1902 year of immigration, 1920 census gives 1900 year of immigration. Is it really same person than 1883 Władysław?


I am sure Michał Deskiewicz, brother of 1883 Władysław emigrated in 1912 and settled in Buffalo.



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Sophia
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:34 am      Post subject:
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sirdan wrote:
Hello,
Registered Adress card of Deszkiewicz family here https://meldunkowe.genealodzy.pl/meldunkowe.php?op=se&lastname=&zsnrc=zsall&kln=k&wos=KP&rpp1=20100&rpp2=50&ro=KLS&exac=pl&lang= confirms Władysław was born in 1883.

There is WWI registration card of Władysław Deskiewicz with birth date 8th of November 1883. Its three days off, maybe problem with date switching from russian system? His relative Bronisława is wife in fact according to 1920 census. Year of imigration 1910.

Władysław birth date on passenger list (1884/1885) is not indicating truly birth date of course, because such documents almost always store approximate dates.

I cannot explain right now parents on SSN application. Pay attention that 1884 Walter Wincent was born in Warsaw according to WWII draft record. And if his wife is Anna and they living in Albany, then 1930 census gives 1902 year of immigration, 1920 census gives 1900 year of immigration. Is it really same person than 1883 Władysław?


I am sure Michał Deskiewicz, brother of 1883 Władysław emigrated in 1912 and settled in Buffalo.


Hi Sirdan,
Quick question for you - - on the Meldunkowe link you posted, I cannot get the image of the registration card to open. Can you? I do see the list of names, though.
Thanks,
Sophia
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sirdan
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:01 am      Post subject:
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Hi Sophia, I cannot open links too. Picture names must have been changed, and link not actualized. I dont know the whole logic behind presentation of the census. By hit and miss i got to the scans however. I dont recognize russian handwriting well, but suppose it is what we look for.
I opened this page https://meldunkowe.genealodzy.pl/meldunkowe.php?op=kt&ar=17&zs=0001d&ja=8341&kt=1 And clicked on "Księga Ludności Stałej miasta Włocławek, tom 24, numery domów 880-888, Zazamcze, 1910"
Scans with Deskiewicz names starts with 0143.jpg (on the top of page) and another Deskiewiczes are on 0152.jpg and 0153.jpg and maybe somewhere else as there are more families that Konstanty and Konstancja. It looks like no. 10 is 884 and no. 11 is 885. I updated link in my previous post too.

Here http://www.szpejankowski.eu/index.php/metryki-wykazy-osob/102.html on the bootom of the page is the pdf link to the whole list of Zazamcze citizens based on the Włocławek census (karty meldunkowe) and whole Łęg community. Link name: (gm.Łęg pow.włocławski)
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