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David2019



Joined: 27 Jan 2019
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:56 pm      Post subject: Radziejow Parish Death Record
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Wow that is great (and helpful in so many ways).

Thanks again Dave!!
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who



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:31 am      Post subject:
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This is a baptism document for Marianna zd Ciuk. I think it says something about a Cathedral... but I do not really understand it all. Thanks!


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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:03 pm      Post subject:
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who wrote:
This is a baptism document for Marianna zd Ciuk. I think it says something about a Cathedral... but I do not really understand it all. Thanks!


Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a priest (actually a bishop since he is referred to as infulatus/mitered) and he is recorded as a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiew).

In the future if you post a Latin document for translation please provide whatever geographical information you know about both the parish and the town or village. Such information makes it much easier to get a handle on the geography and thus provide a better translation in a smaller amount of time without the need for research and/or guesswork.

Thank you.

Dave

Here is the translation of the certificate.

I, the undersigned, attest by the presents (i.e. by this certificate) that in the Baptismal Register is found the following:
Liw
In the year 1782 on the 9th day of April I, Tomasz Zbroż(Two illegible letters), pastor of the church of Liw, baptized an infant by the name of Maryanna, the daughter of the legitimate marriage of the renowned* Kazimierz and Katarzyna Ciuk. The sponsors (aka godparents) were the Most Reverend Teodor Jezienski(?), canon of the cathedral of Kijów (Kiew) and mitered** pastor of Liw with the honorable*** Maryanna Goyska, treasurer and bailiff of the land/area of Liw.

In testimony of which I sign below with my own hand near the seal of the church of Liw—given in the pastoral residence on the 15th day of the month of October in the year 1819.

Parish seal and the signature of the vicar of the parish of Liw.

Notes: *famatus/renowned: adjective used to describe a middleclass craftsman.
**infulatus/mitered: indicates a bishop or a so called mitered abbot. Most likely this priest was an auxilary bishop since his title does not indicate that he was the ordinary of the diocese.
***magnifica/honorable/Polish: wielmożna: title used for a member of szlachta who was a court official.
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wavydave



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:17 pm      Post subject: Re: Baptism record from 1870
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Wow, that's great! Thanks so much for this Dave, your details are appreciated and have given me greater insight into this family record.

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Dave,

Your reading is basically correct but a few tweaks will give you additional information. The child was given two names—Ignacy Antoni. The Latin reads “N(omin)ibus Ignatium Antonium” (“With the names Ignacy Antoni”). Another bit of information is the maiden name of the mother, which appears, apparently as an afterthought, above the final three letters of the mother’s given name (Mariannae). That part of the entry begins with “de” and ends with the final letters of the surname “skie” (of/née ….ski). Unfortunately I am not able to tell you her maiden name since I’m not able to determine all the letters of the name—especially the all important initial letters. Perhaps you’ll get a better handle on the name by trying to enlarge that portion of the image. Some of the other letters are problematic in that they appear to merge/overlap letters in the line above and the line below. A final tidbit—nobilis (Polish: szlachetny) was an adjective used to describe a member of the szlachta who was either an outright owner or a leaseholder of a parcel of land. His title in Polish would have been “Pan”.

Finally, the entry states that the child was born in Wasylkow. Whether or not he was also baptized there depends on whether or not that place was the site of the local parish. The date of the baptism was, as you said, June 23. His date of birth is not included in the entry.

Sorry that I can’t provide more info about the mother’s maiden name.

Hoping this clarifies the entry a bit,

Dave
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wavydave



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:32 pm      Post subject: parishioner records
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Hi Dave, wondering if you would please mind helping me with some small bits on the attached Roman Catholic parishioner records. Below is what I think I'm reading correctly. What I need help with is 1) understanding the word (and meaning) beside the names "Raphael and Smyeon" in one record (those names are not in any of my family records, so I'm curious why they're listed) and 2) if I'm correct in assuming the writing beside the childrens' names is the names of the parishes when the children were baptized. Thanks in advance.

House #0 (presumably landless?)

Wincenty Borowski, born 1801
Elźbieta née Biliński, born 1810
Katarzyna, aged 25, born in November 1832
Kasper, born 1841 (baptised in Czortkow?)
Dominik, aged 3, born October 1844
Raphael and Smyeon? (I’m not familiar with either of these names in my family history).

House #63

(Deceased?) Wincenty Borowski, latin rite, son of Antoni and Franciszka Labocki,
wife Elźbieta Biliński, latin rite, daughter of Teodor and Katarzyna née Kowska
Sons/Daughters:
Katarzyna, aged 18
Kasper, age 14 (baptised in Czortkow?)
Dominik, aged 11, ?
Leo, aged 6, ?
Josef, aged 3, ?



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bretrandb



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:18 pm      Post subject: Help for a birth record of 1804
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Hello,

I hope I am on the right thread to ask for help.

Could you please help me with the hereby record because I do not understand enough of Latin to get the meaning in English. Thank you very much for your time.

Best Regards



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:42 pm      Post subject: Re: parishioner records
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wavydave wrote:
Hi Dave, wondering if you would please mind helping me with some small bits on the attached Roman Catholic parishioner records. Below is what I think I'm reading correctly. What I need help with is 1) understanding the word (and meaning) beside the names "Raphael and Smyeon" in one record (those names are not in any of my family records, so I'm curious why they're listed) and 2) if I'm correct in assuming the writing beside the childrens' names is the names of the parishes when the children were baptized. Thanks in advance.

House #0 (presumably landless?)

Wincenty Borowski, born 1801
Elźbieta née Biliński, born 1810
Katarzyna, aged 25, born in November 1832
Kasper, born 1841 (baptised in Czortkow?)
Dominik, aged 3, born October 1844
Raphael and Smyeon? (I’m not familiar with either of these names in my family history).

House #63

(Deceased?) Wincenty Borowski, latin rite, son of Antoni and Franciszka Labocki,
wife Elźbieta Biliński, latin rite, daughter of Teodor and Katarzyna née Kowska
Sons/Daughters:
Katarzyna, aged 18
Kasper, age 14 (baptised in Czortkow?)
Dominik, aged 11, ?
Leo, aged 6, ?
Josef, aged 3, ?


Hi Dave,

You’ve extracted most of the information correctly. I’ll just make a few additions and corrections. Wincenty 2 is entirely in Latin. Wincenty 3 is mostly in Latin with a bit of Polish.

Wincenty 2:
House 0 just means there is no house number but gives no indication whether he was the owner or a tenant.
Katarzyna was born on November 25, 1838 (as I read the numbers. Also, it is more in line with the births & ages of the other children. 1832 would not match her age in Wincenty 3.
Kasper (Also spelled Kacper in Polish) was born in 1841 and baptized in Czostków (as I read the letters)
Damianus is Damian rather than Dominik and he was born on October 3, 1844
The next two children are Rafal & Szymon (Polish) Raphael & Simon (Latin & English). They are twins (gemelli—the word you asked about) and were born on October 25 184(not sure of the last number).

Wincenty 3
I don’t see anything to indicate that he is deceased. The first words are vide in (illegible abbreviation). Vide is the Present Imperative Singular (gives a command) of the verb video,videre, vidi, visum, to see and so "vide in..." means “see in...” It directs you to another book/record/place. The rest is correct.
Elżbieta is all correct.
Katarzyna is all correct
Kasper/Kacper is correct except that I see the place as Czostków
Dominik again is Damian. The following words are in Polish “w …orwice ochr.” = baptized in ...orw…
Leo (Polish: Leon) correct age; in Złot??? parish of J (or I) gicka?
Józef correct age; baptized in Licharowo? (ie is the Locative ending (which follows the preposition “w” (“in”). The Nominative ends in o.

It appears that the twins Rafal & Szymon must have died.

I hope that the tweaks help you a bit.

Dave
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:09 pm      Post subject: Re: Help for a birth record of 1804
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bretrandb wrote:
Hello,

I hope I am on the right thread to ask for help.

Could you please help me with the hereby record because I do not understand enough of Latin to get the meaning in English. Thank you very much for your time.

Best Regards


Hi,

You posted your request in the correct place but there is a major problem with the entry. The text obviously is found on two pages in the register. However, the text as it appears in the image does not match. For example, the first line of the text on the right page ends with the given name of the father (Antonius/Antoni). His surname should follow on the next line, but does not. Instead the text on the left page continues “LC. Cath….” (“of the legitimate Catholic marriage...” and the next line continues with “et Annae Mariannae” but the text on the right page gives the mother’s name as Joanna.

I’m familiar with records such as this from the German Partition and I also know that due to problems with the binding of some registers the text on the right page sometimes does not line up with the appropriate text on the left page. If you could check and correct the two pages of the entry I’ll be happy to translate it for you. Otherwise the translation will make no sense.

Thanks.

Dave
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who



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:13 pm      Post subject:
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Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

dnowicki wrote:
who wrote:
This is a baptism document for Marianna zd Ciuk. I think it says something about a Cathedral... but I do not really understand it all. Thanks!


Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a priest (actually a bishop since he is referred to as infulatus/mitered) and he is recorded as a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiew).

In the future if you post a Latin document for translation please provide whatever geographical information you know about both the parish and the town or village. Such information makes it much easier to get a handle on the geography and thus provide a better translation in a smaller amount of time without the need for research and/or guesswork.

Thank you.

Dave

Here is the translation of the certificate.

I, the undersigned, attest by the presents (i.e. by this certificate) that in the Baptismal Register is found the following:
Liw
In the year 1782 on the 9th day of April I, Tomasz Zbroż(Two illegible letters), pastor of the church of Liw, baptized an infant by the name of Maryanna, the daughter of the legitimate marriage of the renowned* Kazimierz and Katarzyna Ciuk. The sponsors (aka godparents) were the Most Reverend Teodor Jezienski(?), canon of the cathedral of Kijów (Kiew) and mitered** pastor of Liw with the honorable*** Maryanna Goyska, treasurer and bailiff of the land/area of Liw.

In testimony of which I sign below with my own hand near the seal of the church of Liw—given in the pastoral residence on the 15th day of the month of October in the year 1819.

Parish seal and the signature of the vicar of the parish of Liw.

Notes: *famatus/renowned: adjective used to describe a middleclass craftsman.
**infulatus/mitered: indicates a bishop or a so called mitered abbot. Most likely this priest was an auxilary bishop since his title does not indicate that he was the ordinary of the diocese.
***magnifica/honorable/Polish: wielmożna: title used for a member of szlachta who was a court official.
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:59 pm      Post subject:
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[quote="who"]Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a bishop who was also the pastor of the parish of Liw. He was also a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiev). I’m not sure what canons do but I do know that they were priests who held that position and they were usually attached to the cathedral of the diocese in some way. It seems that his main job was to be the pastor of the parish of Liw, which would explain how he knew the parents. It is true that the sponsors aka godparents were usually relatives or friends of the parents of the child, but there was no rule that said they had to be. Sometimes they were just people who were in the right place at the right time. The fact that they were members of the szlachta (nobles) and the parents were middle class craftspeople adds another question about the relationship between the parents and the godparents.

Dave
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bretrandb



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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:11 am      Post subject: Help for a birth record of 1804
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Hi,

Thanks a lot Dave, that's very kind of you. You're right about the missing text but I do not know how to get a better copy of those two pages and whether that would be at all possible. I've just included here a better scan of the pages. Do you think you can make out some sense of the words we see? (for instance the 2 letters after "Josephus et Paulus")

I also included here the wedding certificate of Antoni and Johanna. I also have problems understanding it but that could shed light on the birth certificate...

Best Regards

Bertrand



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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:46 am      Post subject:
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[quote="dnowicki"]
who wrote:
Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a bishop who was also the pastor of the parish of Liw. He was also a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiev). I’m not sure what canons do but I do know that they were priests who held that position and they were usually attached to the cathedral of the diocese in some way. It seems that his main job was to be the pastor of the parish of Liw, which would explain how he knew the parents. It is true that the sponsors aka godparents were usually relatives or friends of the parents of the child, but there was no rule that said they had to be. Sometimes they were just people who were in the right place at the right time. The fact that they were members of the szlachta (nobles) and the parents were middle class craftspeople adds another question about the relationship between the parents and the godparents.

Dave


Thanks Dave! Interesting this act. I hope I will be able to retrieve another children baptism act to understand if there is any connection or it just as you say, they were in the right place at the right time! Smile
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:51 pm      Post subject: Re: Help for a birth record of 1804
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bretrandb wrote:
Hi,

Thanks a lot Dave, that's very kind of you. You're right about the missing text but I do not know how to get a better copy of those two pages and whether that would be at all possible. I've just included here a better scan of the pages. Do you think you can make out some sense of the words we see? (for instance the 2 letters after "Josephus et Paulus")

I also included here the wedding certificate of Antoni and Johanna. I also have problems understanding it but that could shed light on the birth certificate...

Best Regards

Bertrand


Hi Bertrand,

Both the birth & baptism record and the marriage record have the same type of problems. The most glaring problem is that the words and sentences on the two pages do not correspond to each other. The upside is that such records from that time and place follow one of several set forms of sentence structure and content. The other upside is that my maternal grandmother’s ancestors were from that general area and so I’m very familiar with the style and content of such records. (Her ancestors were from the parishes of Szubin, Słupy, and Brzyskorzystew—all just south of Nakło.) The standard formula sentences deal with legalities and conventions with personal information mixed in. I should be able to reconstruct most of the formulae but no the personal information. You will probably be better able to do that part since you have been doing the actual research. I’ll transcribe and then translate the text and list the problems I see.

Let us begin with the birth & baptism record. (Yes, I know what the letters after the name Paulus stand for and will explain as we go on.)
Here is the Latin text:
Left page: 1804 D(ie) 10 Julij hora 2da mane po(st) = 1804 on the 10th day of July at the second hour in the morning after (this is the only sentence which continues on the right page)
The second line: LC. Cath qui d(ie)19a ejus(dem) = This line is a repetition of words found in the second line of the right page.
The third line: et Anna Marianna = and Anna Maryanna (Makes no sense & I have no idea why it is here.
Right page:
Line 1: media nocte natus est infans ex Magnifico D(omi)no* Antonio = midnight an infant was born of the legitimate Catholic marriage of [this is the L.C.Cath. from line 2 ] of the honorable Pan* Antoni
Line 2: (Mag)nifica D(omi)na* Joanna de Zabinska L.C. Cath. qui d(ie) 19a ejus(dem) baptisatus = [and of] the honorable Pani* Joanna née Zabinska who (refers back to infans/infant) was baptized on the 19th day of the same [month]
Line 3: [missing words are: cui nomen imposui = to whom I gave the name] Josephus et Paulus. P(atrini**) f(uerunt) Magnificus D(omi)nus* Nicolaus = Józef and Paweł. The sponsors** were the honorable Pan* Mikołaj
Line 4: [Ma]gnifica D(omina* Josephata de Zabinska = [and] the honorable Pani Józefata Zabinska.
Notes: *Magnificus Dominus & Magnifica Domina/honorable Pan/Pani: titles given to nobles (szlachta) who were court officials. The Polish adjective is wielmożny, which can also be rendered in English as Esq. It is a bit clumsy to try to put this idea into contemporary English—especially as used in the USA.
**Patrini/sponsors are commonly referred to as godparents, although the correct term is sponsors.

To put the entry together in English...At 2AM on July 10, 1804 a child was born of the legitimate Catholic marriage of the honorable Pan Antoni [missing surname] [and of] the honorable Pani* Joanna née Zabinska, who was baptized on the 19th day of the same [month and to whom I gave the names] Józef and Paweł. The sponsors were the honorable Pan Mikołaj [missing surname] [and] the honorable Pani Józefata Zabinska.

Now the marriage record…
First Column: Place of residence of those joined in marriage: Nakło
Col. 2: Running count of marriages for the year: 4
Col.4: Single young man with a maiden: 1
Col. 12: The Year of Our Lord: 1800
The same difficulty exists as in the baptismal record—the text on the left & right pages are disconnected.
Here is a translation of the body of the entry:
On the 13th day of January, after the announcements of the banns had been made on three consecutive Sundays and since no canonical impediment had been detected, the Reverend Pan Rocewicz, pastor of Zabartowo, questioned the honorable [Pan Antoni] Jasinski, a single young man, and the honorable Panna Joanna [Zabinska], a maiden, and after having received their mutual consent solemnly joined them together in marriage in the presence of the witnesses the honorable Pan [missing give & surnames] [and] the honorable Pan Grabowski.
Final Col.: The ages of the newlyweds: The groom:24 years of age, the bride 19.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave
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bretrandb



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Post Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:47 am      Post subject:
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A huge THANK YOU David, that's really informative and very helpful! It's nice to find people like you.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:36 pm      Post subject: parents consent?
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Dave,

I do not need a translation, but I'm curious about the parents consent of the bride Mary in the attached marriage, the fourth marriage on the scan.

Did the parents give her their consent?

Also, do you have any leads on where I could find her birth record? It says she's from Debno, but I am unable to find those scans on familysearch.

thanks as always.



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